Just now, Parravon said:

And based on the fact that an email got reversed, you're now assuming all emails aren't worth a ****? There's been FAQ entries that have been reversed as well. We can only go by the latest rulings. If they're in the FAQ, then fine. If they're not in the FAQ and have to be from an email, then that's good enough for 99.9% of most players.

Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, they are NOT an official ruling by any means. It only becomes official once it hits the FAQ.

Do you remember the K-wing article? The one that said you could drop a bomb before you slammed? Unless it is in the FAQ it isn't official. That was an article by FFG.

We have to rule based on the FAQ and official rules in the game. Anything not there is up to the TO/Judge discretion. That is the only point I'm making regarding the emails.

1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

You follow this argument to its logical conclusion and we in fact have no rule set at all. The Rules Reference has been superseded by the FAQ, so it's clearly not to be trusted. And the FAQ has superseded itself on occasion, so you clearing can't trust it's "rulings" to be correct, either. I guess we should just make it up as we go then!

Seems to be what some folks wanna do.

1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

You follow this argument to its logical conclusion and we in fact have no rule set at all. The Rules Reference has been superseded by the FAQ, so it's clearly not to be trusted. And the FAQ has superseded itself on occasion, so you clearing can't trust it's "rulings" to be correct, either. I guess we should just make it up as we go then!

There are official documents of reference and they are listed in the Tournament Regulations PDF file.

6 minutes ago, Ynot said:

Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, they are NOT an official ruling by any means. It only becomes official once it hits the FAQ.

Do you remember the K-wing article? The one that said you could drop a bomb before you slammed? Unless it is in the FAQ it isn't official. That was an article by FFG.

We have to rule based on the FAQ and official rules in the game. Anything not there is up to the TO/Judge discretion. That is the only point I'm making regarding the emails.

The point you appear to be making is that emails are to be ignored because they aren't official in any sense . At least, that's what I'm getting. No one has stated that an email is an "official ruling" at all. What they are, is a clarification . And that clarification can be used to aid a decision on something that may not be directly covered in the rules or by the FAQ. By no means should they be simply dismissed as unofficial or probably inaccurate.

In this game, the developers have written many rules and card abilities with the intention of getting a certain result from it. Sometimes that intention is not entirely clear to the players, and sometimes it contradicts the rules as written. See tractor beams for a fine example of that .

Some of the game's more intricate mechanics have been clarified by FAQ entries and these instances can be extrapolated further to cover extremely similar situations. Some of the game's mechanics or intentions have been clarified by email responses and published articles on their website, and although they aren't considered "official rulings", they do give the player base an idea as to the intention of the mechanic involved.

Honestly, in more than three decades that I've been playing games like this, X-wing has got to be the most supported game I've ever played with regard to the speed that any " grey areas " in the rules get sorted out. That and the fact that I can send in an email question and get an answer sometimes within hours, have made it such an easy and enjoyable game to play. Not to mention the world-wide community that I can ask as well.

1 hour ago, Ynot said:

...and says " When you reveal your maneuver , you may discard this card to instead perform a white [ Stop 0 ] maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token."

So Kanan actually does do his thing after this then since you are implying it is in the "Reveal Dial" step. Inertial Dampeners is then performing a white 0 stop maneuver during Reveal Dial phase, adding stress, then continuing onto the "Execute Maneuver Step" and Kanan triggers at the end of this Phase. Do you see how it is not clear?

Look at Push The Limit:

It has the same exact structure as ID does:

With Push the Limit, you finish everything that triggers after the additional action before you get back to the "Then receive 1 stress token" bit. The same thing happens with ID. Kanan triggers after executing the maneuver specified by ID but before the "Then receive 1 stress token" bit. Both ID and Daredevil instruct you to perform a maneuver. Kanan doesn't trigger after ID or Daredevil is completed, Kanan triggers after performing a maneuver specified in the first half of those cards.

If the TO ruled that Kanan can clear the stress from ID, the TO ruled incorrectly. The clarification email from Frank agrees with the wording on the cards.

And Push the Limit has long been established as applying the stress after everything else. You can trigger Experimental Interface off the action that you used in Push the Limit because you don't have the stress yet . ID is no different.

Is there a moment when the stress token is applied ?

The card doesn't say, so I presume it's during the "check pilot stress" timing.

The substep order is:

• Execute Maneuver: Resolve the following substeps in order:
  • Move Ship: Slide the maneuver template between the front guides (the two small bumps) of the ship's base so that it is flush against the base. Holding the template firmly in place, lift the ship and place it at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the base into the opposite end of the template.
    • When a ship executes a maneuver, it is picked up from its starting position and placed in its final position. The full width of the ship's base is ignored except in its starting and final positions.
  • Check Pilot Stress: If the maneuver is red, assign one stress token to the ship; if the maneuver is green, remove one stress token from the ship.
  • Clean Up: Return the maneuver template to the pile of maneuver templates. Place the revealed dial outside the play area next to the ship's Ship card.

On the card, it's say "Then....", is it just after moving ship (1st step), or after all the "Execute Maneuver" substep ?

So, if the stress token is applied at the "check pilot stress" step, Kanan is working (he activate during the "clean up" step).

If the stress is applied after all the substeps of "Execute Maneuver", Kanan doesn't work.

Until FFG doesn't specify when the token is applied, I'm considering it's applied at the "check pilot stress".

I can't wait for the FAQ

It's after the manoeuvre has been completed, and after the 'after executing a manoeuvre' trigger point, as repeatedly stated in every thread on his topic.

It would only happen at 'check pilot stress' if it was a red manoeuvre or the card said so, and it's neither.

12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's after the manoeuvre has been completed, and after the 'after executing a manoeuvre' trigger point, as repeatedly stated in every thread on his topic.

It would only happen at 'check pilot stress' if it was a red manoeuvre or the card said so, and it's neither.

I'm not ok with it.

Take exemple on lightning reflexes.

The card say the stress happen "after". If they wanted the same for ID, why haven't they specify with the same wording. It only say "Then recieve a stress token", so it's just after the move ship step.

Ok ID is from wave 6, and LR from wave 7. But if they really wanted to change the moment the stress is applied, they have all the time to FAQ it.

Now with the use of Kanan on the Falcon, we really need this card FAQ. Til then, for me, Kanan is working cause there is no way to exactly know when this fudging stress is applied.

Check pilot stress is PART of executing a manoeuvre. You can't receive the same stress token both during a process and after it.

I'd not disagree that it needs FAQing, by the by. It's clearly not easy to get right, and it's likely to be a pretty common interaction.

1 hour ago, Grendelator said:

I'm not ok with it.

Take exemple on lightning reflexes.

The card say the stress happen "after". If they wanted the same for ID, why haven't they specify with the same wording. It only say "Then recieve a stress token", so it's just after the move ship step.

Ok ID is from wave 6, and LR from wave 7. But if they really wanted to change the moment the stress is applied, they have all the time to FAQ it.

Now with the use of Kanan on the Falcon, we really need this card FAQ. Til then, for me, Kanan is working cause there is no way to exactly know when this fudging stress is applied.

Lightning Reflexes is actually a problematic card now. At the time that it was released, 'Check Pilot Stress' was a step in the Activation Phase and occurred later than 'Execute Maneuver'. Since the rule changes that came with the TFA core set release, Lightning Reflexes requires the ability to time travel to play as written sine the "Then receive 1 stress token after the 'Check Pilot Stress' step" now happens before the trigger for the card has even been met.

Not really. The latter part of that sentence is meaningless, but not problematic except that it's confusing to have a meaningless statement on a card.

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not really. The latter part of that sentence is meaningless, but not problematic except that it's confusing to have a meaningless statement on a card.

If you follow the timing indicated on the card, this is the order of how Lightning Reflexes will work:

1. Receive 1 stress.

2. Discard the card to rotate the ship.

It's a horrible card to be using as an example in a discussion of how other cards should work as it has timing language that is no longer relevant to the game. If you've got Lightning Reflexes and Pattern Analyzer the timing does become relevant again though. A ship with Pattern Analyzer and ID would get stress before taking their action when using ID. A ship with Pattern Analyzer and Lightning Reflexes would get to take an action before receiving stress when using Lightnng Reflexes.

On 1/23/2017 at 5:33 AM, DR4CO said:

Stoneface, enough already. The process in this situation is clear and cut-and-dry. Kanan triggers after the execution of the white [0-stop], at which point he interrupts the resolution of Inertial Dampeners just as Jake Farrel's ability interrupts the resolution of Push the Limit. You do not get to "delay" Kanan's trigger while you move forwards in time past that trigger point, then come back in time so you can resolve him in an advantageous manner.

The full process is this:

1. Reveal dial, trigger Inertial Dampeners.

2. Execute white [0-stop] maneuver.

2.1. Move ship (or not, in this case).

2.2. Check pilot stress (white move; no change).

2.3. Clean up.

3. A white maneuver has been executed; Kanan Jarrus triggers, interrupting the resolution of Inertial Dampeners. There is currently no stress for him to remove, he therefore does nothing and finishes resolving.

4. Inertial Dampeners continues resolving, applying the stress token.

5. Inertial Dampeners finishes resolving and we return to the ship's activation with its Perform Action step.

So...

Since Pattern Analyzer allows Perform Action before Check Pilot Stress (and works with ID, apparently), on a Rebel tech+crew+EPT ship, you could Kanan away any PTL/EI stress via Pattern Analyzer then, right? Since Clean-up follows Check Pilot Stress?

Also, PA has some timing weirdness with the current FAQ, since it seems to indicate that performing an action is part of executing a maneuver.

I reckon we're going to see some timing chart changes (again) or more errata.

We don't yet know how Kanan and Pattern Analyser would interact - it's already possible for a test case to exist, because Kanan doesn't just work on the ship he's on...

However, my best guess would be that Kanan doesn't work like a green manoeuvre in this case - he happens at After executing a manoeuvre, which still happens before Perform Action - Check Pilot Stress is removed from Execute Manoeuvre by PAs.

But there was a huge bunfight about this a couple of months ago, so it's really not all that clear. Needs FAQing.

33 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

We don't yet know how Kanan and Pattern Analyser would interact - it's already possible for a test case to exist, because Kanan doesn't just work on the ship he's on...

However, my best guess would be that Kanan doesn't work like a green manoeuvre in this case - he happens at After executing a manoeuvre, which still happens before Perform Action - Check Pilot Stress is removed from Execute Manoeuvre by PAs.

But there was a huge bunfight about this a couple of months ago, so it's really not all that clear. Needs FAQing.

Double-check the wording on PA. It's "When executing," and nothing indicating that things are happening outside the "Execute Maneuver" process.

The real issue is that the FAQ and PA disagree on what steps are a part of executing a maneuver, but that's what constantly revamping timing will get ya

5 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

So...

Since Pattern Analyzer allows Perform Action before Check Pilot Stress (and works with ID, apparently), on a Rebel tech+crew+EPT ship, you could Kanan away any PTL/EI stress via Pattern Analyzer then, right? Since Clean-up follows Check Pilot Stress?

Also, PA has some timing weirdness with the current FAQ, since it seems to indicate that performing an action is part of executing a maneuver.

I reckon we're going to see some timing chart changes (again) or more errata.

But you're wrong here, pattern analyzer moves the check pilot stress step after perform action, not perform action before check pilot stress. While this could be brushed aside as a small distinction it's not. Pattern analyzer moves the check pilot stress step out of the maneuver execution step so the sequence goes from (move ship, check stress, cleanup) action to (move ship, cleanup) action, check stress.

You have a weird assumption that cleanup must follow check pilot stress but nothing indicates that and kanan triggers before the action step regardless of pattern analyzer.

1 hour ago, nigeltastic said:

But you're wrong here, pattern analyzer moves the check pilot stress step after perform action, not perform action before check pilot stress. While this could be brushed aside as a small distinction it's not. Pattern analyzer moves the check pilot stress step out of the maneuver execution step so the sequence goes from (move ship, check stress, cleanup) action to (move ship, cleanup) action, check stress.

You have a weird assumption that cleanup must follow check pilot stress but nothing indicates that and kanan triggers before the action step regardless of pattern analyzer.

See above. Double check the wording on PA. It's all contained within "when executing a maneuver." It's using the old sequence as its basis I think, but released with new sequence in effect, so as written it's ambiguous.

2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

See above. Double check the wording on PA. It's all contained within "when executing a maneuver." It's using the old sequence as its basis I think, but released with new sequence in effect, so as written it's ambiguous.

No, 'when executing a maneuver' is the trigger wording. 'After executing a maneuver' wouldn't make sense since check pilot stress is part of executing a maneuver. I'll agree that the language is sloppy but given the year difference in releases of the new rules reference and pattern analyzer it seems a bit surprising that they would not align.

58 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

No, 'when executing a maneuver' is the trigger wording. 'After executing a maneuver' wouldn't make sense since check pilot stress is part of executing a maneuver. I'll agree that the language is sloppy but given the year difference in releases of the new rules reference and pattern analyzer it seems a bit surprising that they would not align.

It's 100% based on when check pilot stress and perform action were immediately sequential steps of executing a maneuver. I agree that RAI is what you're stating, but the card as written is considering them to both be part of the execute a maneuver step.

9 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

It's 100% based on when check pilot stress and perform action were immediately sequential steps of executing a maneuver. I agree that RAI is what you're stating, but the card as written is considering them to both be part of the execute a maneuver step.

Perform Action was never part of Execute Maneuver. The old sequence was Execute Maneuver, then Check Pilot Stress, then Perform Action.

On 1/20/2017 at 0:53 PM, digitalbusker said:

Oh, FFS. This is right up there with "what does and doesn't count as a dice modification" for evergreen questions on this board.

The new Falcon title triggers after the maneuver, which is the same timing as Kanan, so you get to choose the order in which they resolve.

Inertial Dampeners triggers at dial reveal. It then tells you to do one thing (perform a white stop maneuver) and then another thing (receive a stress). The second thing the card tells you to do is not an independent triggered effect with an implied timing window of "after" the first thing the card tells you to do. Nothing triggers at the same time as Kanan, so you don't get to manipulate the order.

• Reveal Your Dial
• Trigger ID
  • Discard ID
  • Execute stop maneuver
    • This is where Kanan triggers. If you already had a stress, you can remove it. But you're still getting the ID stress later on.
  • Receive a stress from ID

I went back to your original post on Kanan and ID. I'm on a Kindle so I can't cut and paste our previous exchanges. Please bear with me. I'm trying to find the flaw in my line of reasoning.

We know what condition must be satisfied in order to use Kanan's ability and that's a white maneuver.

We know from the FAQ when we can trigger Kanan's ability and that's after the Cleanup substep of the Activation Phase.

ACTIVATION PHASE:

REVEAL DIAL. At this point I decide to use ID. I perform a white stop maneuver. This satisfies the condition needed to use Kanan's ability.

CHECK PILOT STRESS. Stress from ID is not added here because of the white maneuver.

CLEANUP. Remove movement templates.

Kanan triggers here per FAQ.

PERFORM ACTION:

I'm pretty sure the above sequence is correct with the stress from ID being the only thing omitted. IF the sequence is correct, where is the stress from ID added?

If it's after the CHECK PILOT STRESS substep, Kanan should be able to remove it. If it's not applied there it can be applied during the CLEANUP substep. If not applied there, it has to be applied after CLEANUP but before PERFORM ACTIONS. If applied here, after CLEANUP, why wouldn't Kanan be able to remove it?

That's my thinking, step by step. I'm not getting how the stress from ID is applied after Kanan triggers. Where am I going wrong in my thinking?

3 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

We know from the FAQ when we can trigger Kanan's ability and that's after the Cleanup substep of the Activation Phase.

I think this is what you may have wrong. Kanan triggers after the Clean-up substep of executing a maneuver. That may be in the Activation phase, it may even be in the combat phase in the case of a Daredevil free action.

Inertial Dampeners contains two steps.

1. Execute a white stop maneuver
   • Move Ship
   • Check Pilot Stress
   • Clean-up
2. Gain a stress.

Kanan would trigger after the Clean up substep when executing the maneuver. Anytime something is triggered, it is resolved before moving forward which would mean that Kanan must resolve before moving on to step 2 where you gain your stress.

4 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

ACTIVATION PHASE:

REVEAL DIAL. At this point I decide to use ID. I perform a white stop maneuver. This satisfies the condition needed to use Kanan's ability.

CHECK PILOT STRESS. Stress from ID is not added here because of the white maneuver.

CLEANUP. Remove movement templates.

Kanan triggers here per FAQ.

PERFORM ACTION:

I'm pretty sure the above sequence is correct with the stress from ID being the only thing omitted. IF the sequence is correct, where is the stress from ID added?

If it's after the CHECK PILOT STRESS substep, Kanan should be able to remove it. If it's not applied there it can be applied during the CLEANUP substep. If not applied there, it has to be applied after CLEANUP but before PERFORM ACTIONS. If applied here, after CLEANUP, why wouldn't Kanan be able to remove it?

That's my thinking, step by step. I'm not getting how the stress from ID is applied after Kanan triggers. Where am I going wrong in my thinking?

The stress from ID is applied after "execute maneuver" and before "perform action". Or, if you prefer, after "clean up" (which, as the last substep of "execute maneuver", is exactly the same thing) and before "perform action".

"Aha!" you say! "That's the same time that Kanan activates, and things that happen at the same time can be resolved in an order of my choosing!" (Or maybe you don't say that. If not, kudos, because that's the thing that usually trips people up with Kanan crew.)

The only things you can reorder are triggered events that have the same timing window. That means if you have another effect that triggers "after executing a maneuver", you can trigger it and Kanan both, and resolve them in any order. (This, incidentally, is why Kanan does work to clear the stress from the new Millenium Falcon title. Both trigger after a white maneuver, so you can title first, then Kanan, or Kanan first, then title, if you started stressed and need to clear the stress to be able to title.)

Receiving the stress from Inertial Dampeners isn't a triggered event. It's just the next thing the card tells you to do. And you have to resolve all the effects triggered off the previous thing before you move on to the next thing. If you didn't, well why not delay resolving Kanan until after Perform Action? They both happen after Execute Maneuver, right? So I start unstressed, do a white maneuver, perform an action, Push the Limit to perform another action and receive a stress, and then Kanan the stress away, right?

No, because "the next thing you're going to do" is not a timing window, it's just the next thing you're going to do.

I am constitutionally incapable of believing there's a problem that can't be solved by the application of bulleted lists, so here's another stab at diagramming what happens in your activation if you use Inertial Dampeners.

You start with this, as we've covered:

• Reveal Dial
• Execute Maneuver
  • Move Ship
  • Check Pilot Stress
  • Clean Up
• Perform Action

Hopefully it's obvious to you that, in this version, Kanan's effect comes between "Clean Up" and "Perform Action", and if you're not stressed at that point, Kanan has nothing to do.

Now, when you choose to use Inertial Dampeners, it replaces the normal Execute Maneuver step, so you wind up with something that looks like this:

• Reveal Dial
• Inertial Dampeners
  • Discard Inertial Dampeners
  • Execute white [stop 0] maneuver
    • (do not actually) Move Ship
    • Check Pilot Stress
    • Clean Up
  • Receive Stress from Inertial Dampeners
• Perform Action

In this version, Kanan comes between "Clean Up" and "Receive Stress from Inertial Dampeners". And if you're not already stressed (which you could be, if you started the round with stress), then there's nothing for Kanan to do.

Under no circumstances can Kanan trigger off the white move inside Inertial Dampeners and then clear the stress from Intertial Dampeners, because at that point the stress from Inertial Dampeners hasn't arrived yet.