Now is when you are choosing to ignore all the previous posts.
Let me ask you: why did you ask your question, if you are not seeking for an answer?
If your solution to everything that is told to you is ignoring what has been told before and wait to the FAQ, why coming to the rules forum in the first place?
I'm not going to write the same things over and over again. The answers you say you want are written before in this thread
Stoneface, enough already. The process in this situation is clear and cut-and-dry. Kanan triggers after the execution of the white [0-stop], at which point he interrupts the resolution of Inertial Dampeners just as Jake Farrel's ability interrupts the resolution of Push the Limit. You do not get to "delay" Kanan's trigger while you move forwards in time past that trigger point, then come back in time so you can resolve him in an advantageous manner.
The full process is this:
1. Reveal dial, trigger Inertial Dampeners.
2. Execute white [0-stop] maneuver.
2.1. Move ship (or not, in this case).
2.2. Check pilot stress (white move; no change).
2.3. Clean up.
3. A white maneuver has been executed; Kanan Jarrus triggers, interrupting the resolution of Inertial Dampeners. There is currently no stress for him to remove, he therefore does nothing and finishes resolving.
4. Inertial Dampeners continues resolving, applying the stress token.
5. Inertial Dampeners finishes resolving and we return to the ship's activation with its Perform Action step.
Edited by DR4COStoneface, enough already. The step by process in this situation is clear and cut-and-dry. Kanan triggers after the execution of the white [0-stop], at which point he interrupts the resolution of Inertial Dampeners just as Jake Farrel's ability interrupts the resolution of Push the Limit. You do not get to "delay" Kanan's trigger while you move forwards in time past that trigger point, then come back in time so you can resolve him in an advantageous manner.
The full process is this:
1. Reveal dial, trigger Inertial Dampeners.
2. Execute white [0-stop] maneuver.
2.1. Move ship (or not, in this case).
2.2. Check pilot stress (white move; no change).
2.3. Clean up.
3. A white maneuver has been executed; Kanan Jarrus triggers, interrupting the resolution of Inertial Dampeners. There is currently no stress for him to remove, he therefore does nothing and finishes resolving.
4. Inertial Dampeners continues resolving, applying the stress token.
5. Inertial Dampeners finishes resolving and we return to the ship's activation with its Perform Action step.
This is correct.
For some reason this has now finally clicked with me. To rephrase the ID card a little the basic procedure is:
1. Do maneuver (including all the sub-steps)
2. Assign stress
I get it now. I think the confusion comes about because FFG seem intent on creating specific timing windows for things and the stress gets assigned outside of any of these windows (it's not in the Perform Maneuver step, or the Action step...it just kind of happens). A little more specific clarity on that in the FAQ would probably be helpful.
Stoneface, enough already. The process in this situation is clear and cut-and-dry. Kanan triggers after the execution of the white [0-stop], at which point he interrupts the resolution of Inertial Dampeners just as Jake Farrel's ability interrupts the resolution of Push the Limit. You do not get to "delay" Kanan's trigger while you move forwards in time past that trigger point, then come back in time so you can resolve him in an advantageous manner.
The full process is this:
1. Reveal dial, trigger Inertial Dampeners.
2. Execute white [0-stop] maneuver.
2.1. Move ship (or not, in this case).
2.2. Check pilot stress (white move; no change).
2.3. Clean up.
3. A white maneuver has been executed; Kanan Jarrus triggers, interrupting the resolution of Inertial Dampeners. There is currently no stress for him to remove, he therefore does nothing and finishes resolving.
4. Inertial Dampeners continues resolving, applying the stress token.
5. Inertial Dampeners finishes resolving and we return to the ship's activation with its Perform Action step.
I'm really not trying to be a PITA. It appears from your explanation then Kanan wouldn't work for the new Falcon title card. He would trigger before the 180° rotation and application of stress.
Stoneface, enough already. The process in this situation is clear and cut-and-dry. Kanan triggers after the execution of the white [0-stop], at which point he interrupts the resolution of Inertial Dampeners just as Jake Farrel's ability interrupts the resolution of Push the Limit. You do not get to "delay" Kanan's trigger while you move forwards in time past that trigger point, then come back in time so you can resolve him in an advantageous manner.
The full process is this:
1. Reveal dial, trigger Inertial Dampeners.
2. Execute white [0-stop] maneuver.
2.1. Move ship (or not, in this case).
2.2. Check pilot stress (white move; no change).
2.3. Clean up.
3. A white maneuver has been executed; Kanan Jarrus triggers, interrupting the resolution of Inertial Dampeners. There is currently no stress for him to remove, he therefore does nothing and finishes resolving.
4. Inertial Dampeners continues resolving, applying the stress token.
5. Inertial Dampeners finishes resolving and we return to the ship's activation with its Perform Action step.
I'm really not trying to be a PITA. It appears from your explanation then Kanan wouldn't work for the new Falcon title card. He would trigger before the 180° rotation and application of stress.
As has been repeatedly pointed out, the triggers for Kanan and the new Falcon title are identical so can be resolved in either order. The sequence of events for IDs is not the same.
If IDs were worded the same as the falcon title, then you could use Kanan on them, but they're not, so you can't.
Consider:
Inertial Kanan Dampeners:
When you reveal your dial, instead of executing your manoeuvre, you may discard this card and gain a stress token to perform a white 0 stop manouevre.
That would be Kanan-able.
Inertial Kanan Dampeners 2:
When you reveal your dial, instead of executing your manoeuvre, you may discard this card to perform a white 0 stop manoeuvre, and gain a stress token after executing the manoeuvre.
Would also work.
'after doing a thing, do a thing', and 'Do a thing. Then do another thing.' are different timings in this game, as per the example of the interaction between Push the Limit and Experimental Interface.
This has been repeatedly stated to you in this thread. Continuing to ignore it isn't helping you or anyone. If you don't want to believe it, feel free to stop posting your disbelief, and submit the question to the FFG rules queries line, then maybe it'll get a proper FAQ; it evidently needs one given how much it's been discussed recently.
Oh, FFS. This is right up there with "what does and doesn't count as a dice modification" for evergreen questions on this board.
(...) It's a bit ridiculous to claim it's equivalent to asking "what counts as dice modification". (...)
The two questions aren't equivalent. One's easily answered by looking in the rulebook, and the other requires referring to precedent in the form of email answers to rules form questions. They're just both things that come up a lot.
Like I said, I'm not upset that you needed clarification on this. And I believe that you made a good faith effort to search for the answer. I've searched for "Kanan Inertial Dampeners" several times on this forum looking for the perfect thing to link people to when this comes up again, but the results are never super helpful.
But the answer is still the same.
Edited by digitalbuskerI'm really not trying to be a PITA. It appears from your explanation then Kanan wouldn't work for the new Falcon title card. He would trigger before the 180° rotation and application of stress.
I've submitted the question to FFG specifically for Kanan and ID. I've re-read all three cards several times along with the arguments posted here and there's something about the stress being applied after the cleanup phase and Kanan interrupting ID that's not sitting right. I can follow the interaction between PTL and EI and nesting 3 or 4 actions but not this. Sorry, I'm not trying to be intentionally obstinate or thick headed.
Looking at the wording:
Kanan
QuoteOnce per round, after a friendly ship at Range 1-2 executes a white maneuver, you may remove 1 stress token from that ship.
Inertial Dampeners
Quote
Daredevil
Quote
Since the only official ruling is for Kanan's timing and the others appear to fall at the same time, it could be argued successfully that they all fall in the "Cleanup Phase" timing due to Kanan's ruling and wording.
All of them have this:
1 - do the maneuver
2 - get a stress token(remove a stress token)
Since the only one that has a valid a clear timing window according to the FAQ is Kanan, it can legally be ruled either way at the discretion of the TO/Judge until such time that FFG puts it in the FAQ officially. It should actually be ruled in favour of the Kanan ruling meaning they all happen at the same time and can be resolved according to the order of the person that has Kanan.
Please show me in the FAQ where either daredevil or inertial dampeners timing of the stress is explained as it compares to Kanan.
I understand the the Judge at the recent FFG regional may have ruled that Kanan does remove the stress from ID so that adds some fuel to the fire.
Edited by Ynot
You know what? I'm not going to even bother any more. The rules behind this have been explained a hundred times in as many threads by now. The only way you can misread this interaction is if you're willfully being obstinate.
They don't work. If you want to know why, just flick back a page or two and read one of the hundred threads on the subject. Then get over it and move on, gorramit.
Edited by DR4CO24 minutes ago, DR4CO said:
You know what? I'm not going to even bother any more. The rules behind this have been explained a hundred times in as many threads by now. The only way you can misread this interaction is if you're willfully being obstinate.
They don't work. If you want to know why, just flick back a page or two and read one of the hundred threads on the subject. Then get over it and move on, gorramit.
Did you even read my post?
The Head Judge at the recent FFG regional(The one at their Head Office) ruled in favour of Kanan removing stress from ID as it isn't clearly stated in the rules. The only interaction clearly stated is that "after you execute a maneuver" is the "Cleanup Phase" substep of the Execute Maneuver" Step and this is only due to the fact that they said Kanan happens at this point. No other interactions have been officially clarified as far as ID and Kanan goes. Daredevil is a question as well since it is an "Execute a maneuver" as well.
It certainly isn't as "Clear Cut" as you would have everyone believe and until there is something in the official FAQ it is apparently at the discretion of the judge.
Edited by YnotThe judge may or may not have been correct. His ruling in a tournament does not settle the matter in the bigger scheme of things. No matter how big or whose tournament it is. That final ruling is still up to the developers. Send an email in if you want something more concrete to base an argument on.
3 minutes ago, Parravon said:The judge may or may not have been correct. His ruling in a tournament does not settle the matter in the bigger scheme of things. No matter how big or whose tournament it is. That final ruling is still up to the developers. Send an email in if you want something more concrete to base an argument on.
That is exactly my point. Many posts in this thread would have you think that it has been officially ruled on and is in the FAQ when it is not.
An email isn't an official ruling. It is not considered something you can refer to as a judge or TO to make a decision based on.
2 minutes ago, Ynot said:That is exactly my point. Many posts in this thread would have you think that it has been officially ruled on and is in the FAQ when it is not.
An email isn't an official ruling. It is not considered something you can refer to as a judge or TO to make a decision based on.
A TO/judge can refer to whatever he likes to base his decisions on, and I would argue that any worth his salt should be going out of his way to ensure he has the most information available - and that includes email clarifications from the developers in lieu of FAQ entries.
Edited by DR4COAn email is the next best thing until the answer appears in the FAQ. And as a judge or TO, I would consider it just as good for the basis of any decision, until it appears in the rules or FAQ.
If you can't accept an email from FFG in order to help you make a decision, then you're playing the wrong game.
1 minute ago, DR4CO said:A TO/judge can refer to whatever he likes to base his decisions on, and I would argue that any worth his salt should be going out of his way to ensure he has the most information available - and that includes email clarifications from the developers in lieu of FAQ entries.
It is not reasonable to email FFG for everything prior to a tournament and expect them to provide every email ruling - that is plain absurd.
The FAQ is the place to clarify these things.
And in the absence of a FAQ ruling, you'd choose to ignore any other relevant information regardless of it's source?
Just now, Parravon said:An email is the next best thing until the answer appears in the FAQ. And as a judge or TO, I would consider it just as good for the basis of any decision, until it appears in the rules or FAQ.
If you can't accept an email from FFG in order to help you make a decision, then you're playing the wrong game.
The email I saw said he ruled on Daredevil which is an action so this at least partially makes sense since it is past the Execute A maneuver step but references it back anyway. Inertial Dampeners is during the Execute a Maneuver step.
Just now, Ynot said:It is not reasonable to email FFG for everything prior to a tournament and expect them to provide every email ruling - that is plain absurd.
The FAQ is the place to clarify these things.
Indeed it is the place to clarify these things, but in case you haven't noticed, FFG are notoriously slow to update the darn thing. So what's a TO supposed to do in the meantime? Not hold an event until they release an update?
The emails are the next best thing, even if responses are slow. Best case scenario you get an answer you can at least use for your event; worst case scenario you don't hear anything and you're back to square one.
2 minutes ago, Ynot said:Inertial Dampeners is during the Execute a Maneuver step.
No, it's not. Inertial Dampeners activates upon Reveal Dial and replaces Execute Maneuver with its effect.
Edited by DR4CO2 minutes ago, Parravon said:And in the absence of a FAQ ruling, you'd choose to ignore any other relevant information regardless of it's source?
I remember seeing at least 1 email "ruling" that was actually contradicted in the FAQ and was actually wrong. When the FAQ was updated it was the opposite. I can't recall exactly what it was right now.
2 minutes ago, DR4CO said:Indeed it is the place to clarify these things, but in case you haven't noticed, FFG are notoriously slow to update the darn thing. So what's a TO supposed to do in the meantime? Not hold an event until they release an update?
The emails are the next best thing, even if responses are slow. Best case scenario you get an answer you can at least use for your event; worst case scenario you don't hear anything and you're back to square one.
Unfortunately "the next best thing" isn't anywhere in the rules as a valid source of information. I messaged the poster here that said they were sending an email to find out what response they received. I searched this forum for an answer prior to posting in this thread. There are a lot of "assumptions" and "opinions" but no valid rulings.
6 minutes ago, DR4CO said:No, it's not. Inertial Dampeners activates upon Reveal Dial. At least read the card you're arguing about.
...and says "When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard this card to instead perform a white [Stop 0] maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token."
So Kanan actually does do his thing after this then since you are implying it is in the "Reveal Dial" step. Inertial Dampeners is then performing a white 0 stop maneuver during Reveal Dial phase, adding stress, then continuing onto the "Execute Maneuver Step" and Kanan triggers at the end of this Phase. Do you see how it is not clear?
1 minute ago, Ynot said:I remember seeing at least 1 email "ruling" that was actually contradicted in the FAQ and was actually wrong. When the FAQ was updated it was the opposite. I can't recall exactly what it was right now.
Unfortunately "the next best thing" isn't anywhere in the rules as a valid source of information. I messaged the poster here that said they were sending an email to find out what response they received. I searched this forum for an answer prior to posting in this thread. There are a lot of "assumptions" and "opinions" but no valid rulings.
And based on the fact that an email got reversed, you're now assuming all emails aren't worth a ****? There's been FAQ entries that have been reversed as well. We can only go by the latest rulings. If they're in the FAQ, then fine. If they're not in the FAQ and have to be from an email, then that's good enough for 99.9% of most players.
5 minutes ago, Ynot said:I remember seeing at least 1 email "ruling" that was actually contradicted in the FAQ and was actually wrong. When the FAQ was updated it was the opposite. I can't recall exactly what it was right now.
You follow this argument to its logical conclusion and we in fact have no rule set at all. The Rules Reference has been superseded by the FAQ, so it's clearly not to be trusted. And the FAQ has superseded itself on occasion, so you clearing can't trust it's "rulings" to be correct, either. I guess we should just make it up as we go then!