I have been thinking about this a lot lately since I have been flying the Falcon with Rey more and more; there seems to be two different takes on the crew slots and title; Kanan & Sloop title (white manevuer - no stress) or C3PO (hope for extra evade and evade action for 2 evades)

Where does every one fly on this? This is like the Poe debate (with astro/purpose) do you perfer? I'm really interested in hearing from more experienced and better maneuver specialist here on the form. I started in the beginning running the new title and s/looping to keep myself in arc and stress free for optimal offense, then (Expertise) was introduced which changed my mind back to the old title (evade) and C-3PO but is the sacrifice I'm making with C-3PO/Old title that great?

With Expertise you don't need the focus action for Rey, but then you don't get the evade either except that "1 agility" dice roll, but with C3PO you lose the abilty to s/loop and if you don't take Expertise w/the new title what is the best option (Veteran Instincts) .... where does everyone stand on this?

For Rey, I'm very solidly in the Kanan/New title camp. I've been playing around with an Expertise Rey, and found the focus nice for defense, especially since I'm also using Finn. The New Title on Rey is all about Turing her into a jouster and maximizing her ability.

I'm honestly of the opinion that if you think you should use 3PO/old title, you are probably better of going with Han. That combo is all about tanking shots, and Han doesn't care about arc, so you can move as your like to ensure you get your action.

Finally, VI does seem the go to EPT for Rey, though I've been really interested in Expert Handling for barrel rolls (I found I wanted to barrel roll more then boost with the VI version) and Expertise gives her reasonably consistent damage without sacrificing defense.

Kanan + New Title (+ Finn, obviously). The old Fat Falcon archetype is still decent, but it lacks the firepower needed in the current meta. The new build is less reliable, but given that you can get the enemy ship in arc, your defense is pretty similar to 3P0 -- and, importantly, it's passive, which means that it's great against swarms and TLTs.

And that's not to mention the offensive bonuses. Rey needs to get folks in arc. You need damage output.

Ahh C-3PO. The source of so much hate and discontent until Emperor Palpatine arrived.

C3-PO was only truly effective on the Falcon in conjunction with R2-D2 and the old title. Any two of them didn't mean squat. Its the unique-to-the-Falcon combination of the three that enables it to guarantee 3 blocked damage per turn. This was fantastic in a two ship meta where damage was pretty much limited to 3 a ship. Nowadays pilots like Fenn Rau, Dengar and Bossk can reliably deal more than 3 damage per turn while being tank themselves. This means that Fat Han is a relic of the past.

Kanan/new title, on the other hand, is a decent and maneuverable combination that is based on a silid platform with high damage potential (when combined with Rey + Finn).

I am pretty firmly in the Kanan/sloop camp. I played once against someone with sloop+c3po and it was a bit better than I thought it would be but thats probably more to do with the list I was using against it. Going forward I think expertise/kanan/sloop is going to be a good combo because it frees up your action for a boost or defensive focus (which can make her even more tanky).

C3-PO was only truly effective on the Falcon in conjunction with R2-D2 and the old title. Any two of them didn't mean squat. Its the unique-to-the-Falcon combination of the three that enables it to guarantee 3 blocked damage per turn. This was fantastic in a two ship meta where damage was pretty much limited to 3 a ship. Nowadays pilots like Fenn Rau, Dengar and Bossk can reliably deal more than 3 damage per turn while being tank themselves. This means that Fat Han is a relic of the past.

I think this is an enourmous overstatement given that we have seen someone take a fat han (3cpo+ gunner not R2D2) to the top 4 at worlds. I've also been playing a lot with it recently and found it to be pretty good. The trick is pairing it with something that makes up for Han's weaknesses (ie that its a lot of points invested into a 3 dice primary). A high ps large based arc dodger is still relevent and expertise coming in gives him that little extra boost.

C3-PO was only truly effective on the Falcon in conjunction with R2-D2 and the old title. Any two of them didn't mean squat. Its the unique-to-the-Falcon combination of the three that enables it to guarantee 3 blocked damage per turn. This was fantastic in a two ship meta where damage was pretty much limited to 3 a ship. Nowadays pilots like Fenn Rau, Dengar and Bossk can reliably deal more than 3 damage per turn while being tank themselves. This means that Fat Han is a relic of the past.

Kanan/new title, on the other hand, is a decent and maneuverable combination that is based on a silid platform with high damage potential (when combined with Rey + Finn).

Nonsense. C3PO is effective on any 1-agility ship. He makes their defence go from highly unreliable to perfectly reliable. He gets *better* if you can take an evade action and/or add further evades or regen (e.g. Norra, old Falcon title) but he's perfectly OK on any 1-agi ship.

Fat Han and Norra are the two best locations for him, though Norra probably wants Tail Gunner for the increased offence.

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

I think this is an enourmous overstatement given that we have seen someone take a fat han (3cpo+ gunner not R2D2 ) to the top 4 at worlds. I've also been playing a lot with it recently and found it to be pretty good. The trick is pairing it with something that makes up for Han 's weaknesses (ie that its a lot of points invested into a 3 dice primary). A high ps large based arc dodger is still relevent and expertise coming in gives him that little extra boost.

Gunner Han went to top 4 at the 2014 worlds because he was facing pre-Palpatine aces, and more specifically, not defenders. When you're attacking a Phantom, gunner gives you a much higher chance of doing damage, and even 1 damage a turn is enough to win the game for Han. However, X7 defenders with Palpatine backing probably won't suffer damage to just 2 attacks, even with Predator on offense. Nowadays, just about any Imperial ace can hold off a Gunner Falcon's fire (excluding Finn+Rey+Gunner) indefinitely while Palpatine is on the board. C3-PO is a functional piece on a Falcon without R2-D2, but the points are better served on Kanan or another offense-boosting ship, since the Falcon will die quickly anyway.

Nonsense. C3PO is effective on any 1-agility ship. He makes their defence go from highly unreliable to perfectly reliable. He gets *better* if you can take an evade action and/or add further evades or regen (e.g. Norra , old Falcon title) but he's perfectly OK on any 1-agi ship.

Miranda Doni might be the best use of C3-PO currently, but she's liking Sabine a lot recently. The question with C3-PO is whether or not that extra evade is worth it, in comparison to other things that three points might buy. At this point in the game, unless you can guarantee that you're not going to be facing more than 2 hit results a turn (extraordinarily unlikely in the current meta), and that your opponents don't have a ship with either autothrusters or better tanking ability than you (you know, Inquisitor, Dengar, X7s, etc), then C3-PO will fail quite quickly.

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

Under normal circumstances you can really only expect a max reduction of 3, but more likely two. Either you'll roll a blank on the die (3/8 of the time), or you'll roll an evade (3/8 of the time), or you won't have the correct target lock, or you won't have the focus. Its a very gimmicky defense on a ship that can't arc-dodge very well. However, I'd still love to see this in a match, just completely denying a range 1 attack from Whisper.

Old Title + Kanan + Katarn + PtL

You get to arc-dodge + evade + focus every turn. Arc-dodging is always better ^^

Old Title + Kanan + Katarn + PtL

You get to arc-dodge + evade + focus every turn. Arc-dodging is always better ^^

Respectfully disagree. You need either Finn OR Gunner, you can't have neither. The ship is too many points to just arc dodge people but have no way to actually deal damage to Defenders.

I think this is an enourmous overstatement given that we have seen someone take a fat han (3cpo+ gunner not R2D2 ) to the top 4 at worlds. I've also been playing a lot with it recently and found it to be pretty good. The trick is pairing it with something that makes up for Han 's weaknesses (ie that its a lot of points invested into a 3 dice primary). A high ps large based arc dodger is still relevent and expertise coming in gives him that little extra boost.

Gunner Han went to top 4 at the 2014 worlds because he was facing pre-Palpatine aces, and more specifically, not defenders. When you're attacking a Phantom, gunner gives you a much higher chance of doing damage, and even 1 damage a turn is enough to win the game for Han. However, X7 defenders with Palpatine backing probably won't suffer damage to just 2 attacks, even with Predator on offense. Nowadays, just about any Imperial ace can hold off a Gunner Falcon's fire (excluding Finn+Rey+Gunner) indefinitely while Palpatine is on the board. C3-PO is a functional piece on a Falcon without R2-D2, but the points are better served on Kanan or another offense-boosting ship, since the Falcon will die quickly anyway.

I was talking about the fact that it got to the top 4 at 2016 worlds (although it was Luke rather than gunner if you want to split hairs...)

And yes, Han will kill Defenders only very slowly - but also neither will they kill him particularly quickly - but that comes back to my point about the fact that your list isn't just a fat Han. It's a fat Han plus 36-37 other points of ships, and that is key.

You seem to be very keen to deal in absolutes... no one here is saying fat falcons are at the bleeding edge of the meta. Only that they can have a place when flown correctly and actually still have some decent match ups. I'm enjoying it, doing fairly well with it and if other's are keen to dust it off the shelf then I say, go for it. And I certainly don't agree that its just a 'relic'.

It's really quite simple. If you take Rey, you're clearly planning to use her ability. In order to use her ability, you need to keep your target in arc. And if you want to keep your target in arc, you need the new title and preferably Kanan.

If you want to win by dodging arcs and tanking the (hopefully) few shots you can't dodge, old Han is still there for you. Jack Mooney's top 4 in this year's worlds proves that the archetype can still get far in the hands of a skilled and experienced player. Just be mindful that there is a reason why Fat Hans have all but disappeared. The reason is TLT and while not nearly as prominent as they used to be, TLT lists do show up here and there. In fact ever since Ghost came out the diversity of TLT-centric lists became greater than ever. If you get to stumble upon one of those, you might be in trouble. Rey has a somewhat easier time with them (which doesn't mean easy). Her defenses might not be much better than Han's but at least she can kill them faster.

It's really quite simple. If you take Rey, you're clearly planning to use her ability. In order to use her ability, you need to keep your target in arc. And if you want to keep your target in arc, you need the new title and preferably Kanan.

If you want to win by dodging arcs and tanking the (hopefully) few shots you can't dodge, old Han is still there for you. Jack Mooney's top 4 in this year's worlds proves that the archetype can still get far in the hands of a skilled and experienced player. Just be mindful that there is a reason why Fat Hans have all but disappeared. The reason is TLT and while not nearly as prominent as they used to be, TLT lists do show up here and there. In fact ever since Ghost came out the diversity of TLT-centric lists became greater than ever. If you get to stumble upon one of those, you might be in trouble. Rey has a somewhat easier time with them (which doesn't mean easy). Her defenses might not be much better than Han's but at least she can kill them faster.

It's not just TLTs though. Han has a hard time making up his 60ish points these days since his 2-3hits rarely get through tokenstackers backed up by at and/or Palp. And it's not like Defenders even care alot about taking 1dmg (as opposed to Soontir/Inqui).

Ive played Han extensively and he just doesnt pack enough offensive punch relative to his point cost. Expertise helps a bit, but it's not enough.

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

Under normal circumstances you can really only expect a max reduction of 3, but more likely two. Either you'll roll a blank on the die (3/8 of the time), or you'll roll an evade (3/8 of the time), or you won't have the correct target lock, or you won't have the focus. Its a very gimmicky defense on a ship that can't arc-dodge very well. However, I'd still love to see this in a match, just completely denying a range 1 attack from Whisper.

If you're running a defensive Norra you'll pretty much always have the focus.

The build is PTL/3PO/Title/R2D2, maybe Vectored Thrusters. You do your green move, usually a 1 bank, you PTL for focus/TL on your target. If you're not getting shot at you burn the TL to buff your offense, if you are, you save both tokens for defense and end up with a bare minimum of 2 evades plus regen, possibly 3.

Old Title + Kanan + Katarn + PtL

You get to arc-dodge + evade + focus every turn. Arc-dodging is always better ^^

C3-PO was only truly effective on the Falcon in conjunction with R2-D2 and the old title. Any two of them didn't mean squat. Its the unique-to-the-Falcon combination of the three that enables it to guarantee 3 blocked damage per turn. This was fantastic in a two ship meta where damage was pretty much limited to 3 a ship. Nowadays pilots like Fenn Rau, Dengar and Bossk can reliably deal more than 3 damage per turn while being tank themselves. This means that Fat Han is a relic of the past.

Kanan/new title, on the other hand, is a decent and maneuverable combination that is based on a silid platform with high damage potential (when combined with Rey + Finn).

Nonsense. C3PO is effective on any 1-agility ship. He makes their defence go from highly unreliable to perfectly reliable. He gets *better* if you can take an evade action and/or add further evades or regen (e.g. Norra, old Falcon title) but he's perfectly OK on any 1-agi ship.

Fat Han and Norra are the two best locations for him, though Norra probably wants Tail Gunner for the increased offence.

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

C3PO is also really good on Miranda.

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

Under normal circumstances you can really only expect a max reduction of 3, but more likely two. Either you'll roll a blank on the die (3/8 of the time), or you'll roll an evade (3/8 of the time), or you won't have the correct target lock, or you won't have the focus. Its a very gimmicky defense on a ship that can't arc-dodge very well. However, I'd still love to see this in a match, just completely denying a range 1 attack from Whisper.

If you're running a defensive Norra you'll pretty much always have the focus.

The build is PTL/3PO/Title/R2D2, maybe Vectored Thrusters. You do your green move, usually a 1 bank, you PTL for focus/TL on your target. If you're not getting shot at you burn the TL to buff your offense, if you are, you save both tokens for defense and end up with a bare minimum of 2 evades plus regen, possibly 3.

Having played Norra extensively I'd say that 3PO isn't worth it in the end of the day. Norra is nearly impossible to kill for a single ship even without him, as she gets 2.625 evades per round and will recover her shields any round she's not shot at or if the enemy is just unlucky with his dice. This only works for a single shot though. Any further attacks will only be defended by her 1 poor green die. That makes it an absolute priority to ensure that enemy numbers drop as quickly as possible. If you can get to a point where Norra only faces 1 opponent, she's likely going to win with 3PO or without him. If you can't get there, she'll probably get killed - again with 3PO or without him. Therefore Tail Gunner is typically a far better (and cheaper) option than 3PO. Your chances of killing the enemy are much better with him and you're far more flexible in your positioning while retaining full offensive efficiency.

Old Title + Kanan + Katarn + PtL

You get to arc-dodge + evade + focus every turn. Arc-dodging is always better ^^

Respectfully disagree. You need either Finn OR Gunner, you can't have neither. The ship is too many points to just arc dodge people but have no way to actually deal damage to Defenders.

This is my thinking as well; Finn plus Kanan allows alot of manuevuribilty even with the s/loop title to open the dial up a little more. The cost effectiveness of the ship to me means you need to get the most offensively out of it as you can. Defenders you scare me if I didn't have either Finn or Gunner, that auto evade they receive.

I think this is an enourmous overstatement given that we have seen someone take a fat han (3cpo+ gunner not R2D2 ) to the top 4 at worlds. I've also been playing a lot with it recently and found it to be pretty good. The trick is pairing it with something that makes up for Han 's weaknesses (ie that its a lot of points invested into a 3 dice primary). A high ps large based arc dodger is still relevent and expertise coming in gives him that little extra boost.

Gunner Han went to top 4 at the 2014 worlds because he was facing pre-Palpatine aces, and more specifically, not defenders. When you're attacking a Phantom, gunner gives you a much higher chance of doing damage, and even 1 damage a turn is enough to win the game for Han. However, X7 defenders with Palpatine backing probably won't suffer damage to just 2 attacks, even with Predator on offense. Nowadays, just about any Imperial ace can hold off a Gunner Falcon's fire (excluding Finn+Rey+Gunner) indefinitely while Palpatine is on the board. C3-PO is a functional piece on a Falcon without R2-D2, but the points are better served on Kanan or another offense-boosting ship, since the Falcon will die quickly anyway.

I'm confused. Are you saying the falcon was good previously or was not? Your first post seemed to make it very clear that the falcon wasn't good in the past unless it had both droids and the title. Then, when it was (correctly) pointed out that Fat Han was certainly a thing without BOTH droids, your stance has changed to it WAS good but isn't anymore. Two very different stances to take.

I'd argue that the both droid build wasn't a thing at all until Paul Heaver won worlds with it, and it didn't last too long after that. Once autothrusters came out, the need for gunner/Luke was necessary to reliably do any damage so R2-D2 was sidelined once again.

Old Title + Kanan + Katarn + PtL

You get to arc-dodge + evade + focus every turn. Arc-dodging is always better ^^

Respectfully disagree. You need either Finn OR Gunner, you can't have neither. The ship is too many points to just arc dodge people but have no way to actually deal damage to Defenders.

I can understand that, but I refuse to build my squads around the possibility of one particular list - triple x7 defender. If I have to play against that, I'll accept losing to that ennoying opponent.

In any other case, I find my build more adaptable, hence interesting.

I honestly think if you play Rey in a cautious way, you do not need the sloop title and Kanan, and Threepio stacks well with Finn defensively.

I like to play the Rey/Finn/Kannan Falcon like a VCX...fly like you've got no green dice.

This means always going for position and making sure your target is in arc, because you might not be on the board long but you've got the ability to do a ton of damage while you're out there.

(Also, running Rey/Finn/Kannan Falcon with a Lothal Rebel = a ton of fun, if sometime short, gaming)

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

Under normal circumstances you can really only expect a max reduction of 3, but more likely two. Either you'll roll a blank on the die (3/8 of the time), or you'll roll an evade (3/8 of the time), or you won't have the correct target lock, or you won't have the focus. Its a very gimmicky defense on a ship that can't arc-dodge very well. However, I'd still love to see this in a match, just completely denying a range 1 attack from Whisper.

If you're running a defensive Norra you'll pretty much always have the focus.

The build is PTL/3PO/Title/R2D2, maybe Vectored Thrusters. You do your green move, usually a 1 bank, you PTL for focus/TL on your target. If you're not getting shot at you burn the TL to buff your offense, if you are, you save both tokens for defense and end up with a bare minimum of 2 evades plus regen, possibly 3.

Having played Norra extensively I'd say that 3PO isn't worth it in the end of the day. Norra is nearly impossible to kill for a single ship even without him, as she gets 2.625 evades per round and will recover her shields any round she's not shot at or if the enemy is just unlucky with his dice. This only works for a single shot though. Any further attacks will only be defended by her 1 poor green die. That makes it an absolute priority to ensure that enemy numbers drop as quickly as possible. If you can get to a point where Norra only faces 1 opponent, she's likely going to win with 3PO or without him. If you can't get there, she'll probably get killed - again with 3PO or without him. Therefore Tail Gunner is typically a far better (and cheaper) option than 3PO. Your chances of killing the enemy are much better with him and you're far more flexible in your positioning while retaining full offensive efficiency.

Depends what you run her with. My Rey/Norra build he's a much better choice than tail gunner - Norra can take a lot of heat from two ships, leaving Rey a bit more free to cause havoc. Having 3P0 makes me more confident of using my target lock and focus to push damage through if I'm only being targeted by one ship AND helps if I've bumped. If I can get you down to Norra vs almost any other ship, she's very tanky and will usually win on points.

I trialled her a lot with TG, but against much more manoeuvrable ships, she just couldn't last as she got focussed down. I want her facing the enemy anyway to be throwing her five dice and another five dice from Rey into some really tanky builds.

For me, tanky Norra is worth much more - sure I usually have a few shots where I wish tail gunner kicked in, but 3PO is massive.

3PO does make her defence obscene though. From 0 evades she can get up to 4 damage reduction on a single attack - guess 0, roll an eyeball, add 1 from 3PO, 2 from spending TL and focus, and 1 from regen. It's hideous.

Under normal circumstances you can really only expect a max reduction of 3, but more likely two. Either you'll roll a blank on the die (3/8 of the time), or you'll roll an evade (3/8 of the time), or you won't have the correct target lock, or you won't have the focus. Its a very gimmicky defense on a ship that can't arc-dodge very well. However, I'd still love to see this in a match, just completely denying a range 1 attack from Whisper.

If you're running a defensive Norra you'll pretty much always have the focus.

The build is PTL/3PO/Title/R2D2, maybe Vectored Thrusters. You do your green move, usually a 1 bank, you PTL for focus/TL on your target. If you're not getting shot at you burn the TL to buff your offense, if you are, you save both tokens for defense and end up with a bare minimum of 2 evades plus regen, possibly 3.

Having played Norra extensively I'd say that 3PO isn't worth it in the end of the day. Norra is nearly impossible to kill for a single ship even without him, as she gets 2.625 evades per round and will recover her shields any round she's not shot at or if the enemy is just unlucky with his dice. This only works for a single shot though. Any further attacks will only be defended by her 1 poor green die. That makes it an absolute priority to ensure that enemy numbers drop as quickly as possible. If you can get to a point where Norra only faces 1 opponent, she's likely going to win with 3PO or without him. If you can't get there, she'll probably get killed - again with 3PO or without him. Therefore Tail Gunner is typically a far better (and cheaper) option than 3PO. Your chances of killing the enemy are much better with him and you're far more flexible in your positioning while retaining full offensive efficiency.

Depends what you run her with. My Rey/Norra build he's a much better choice than tail gunner - Norra can take a lot of heat from two ships, leaving Rey a bit more free to cause havoc. Having 3P0 makes me more confident of using my target lock and focus to push damage through if I'm only being targeted by one ship AND helps if I've bumped. If I can get you down to Norra vs almost any other ship, she's very tanky and will usually win on points.

I trialled her a lot with TG, but against much more manoeuvrable ships, she just couldn't last as she got focussed down. I want her facing the enemy anyway to be throwing her five dice and another five dice from Rey into some really tanky builds.

For me, tanky Norra is worth much more - sure I usually have a few shots where I wish tail gunner kicked in, but 3PO is massive.

Perhaps it's a matter of difference in experiences. I tend to fly Norra with Biggs in tow, so she's not worried about survival early on. Once she's passed the enemy, she just never turns back and keeps shooting from the rear 80-90% of the time which makes TG invaluable. Firstly, he makes her rear arc even more deadly than the front one. Secondly flying her that way means you rarely bump because most of the time the enemy is behind you, not in front. Last but not least, you're free to arc dodge with barrel rolls while still retaining most of her offensive power thanks to her title. Overall I feel this makes her far harder to kill and also deadlier than if I had to joust and turn around like a regular fighter. And without TG you kinda have to.