Personally I think we will see a big return to corduroy when Wave 10 drops. And I mean full pleats, like its 1989. You thought the power creep was bad now? Just you wait, Wave 10 will drop and all us denim guys will be scrambling to either fit in with the crowd and avoid the pleatings, I mean beatings, or we'll just start doing the rain cuffs again and only stand in puddles of a certain depth.

Yeah this new pants meta is gonna suck!

Oh... Wait.

Also, double posting should see a big upswing in popularity.

The only really bad thing that's happening IMO is that, due to power creep at the very top,the power gap between 'top tier competitive' and 'casual' lists grows wider and wider, which in turn makes it harder and harder for both players to face each other.

When I started (wave 6), I quickly built myself a Brobots List as the most competitive Scum option (I'm a Scum fan) after fiddling around with a couple of casual lists as a learning experience. I've ran that list in most of my games for a long time (until Jumpmasters were launched) against both casual and competitive lists. Even if I did win many of my games, imost of them still felt like a game with an uncertain result, even against some casual lists.

Nowadays, if I put Dengaroo on the table against the same time of casual lists, I will likely win without my opponent getting a real chance to touch Dengar. It will be as one-sided as it gets.

So it is in the interest of all players that the game is balanced in a diverse way.

Honestly, I think that the best "fix" for this game is simply for FFG to come to terms with the fact that this game is incredibly difficult to keep in balance (or like, nearly impossible) and open themselves up to a Rules Section which has point and ship adjustments for official tournament play (which they can update every 3-4 months).

This game is hard to balance because power creep is a fact of life ( impossible to avoid) and ultra competitive tournament players always demand the bleeding edge in terms of efficiency. Something being 1pt over or undercosted is a really big deal. X-Wing 2.0 isn't really a good solution, because at the time of reset you could level the playing field to a much closer set of balance, but as time progresses, you'd have no way for that game not to fall into the exact same pitfalls as the first iteration of the game, and then you're in the same boat.

They already opened the flood gates for tournament level cards to function differently than what's printed on the card (Heavy Scyk title), so like...let's keep going with that. You can have the whole set of adjustments on a nice little 1pg section in the rules, which players can print out and bring with them. All the squad builder guys are pretty savy and would have them updated in moments. They can just like...update the section every 4 months and we're set.

Firesprays: This ship loses the evade action and gains the barrel roll action.

x7 Title: Cost increased by 1pt (to -1pt).

HWK: Increase primary weapon value by 1.

Long Range Scanners: Ships equipped with this may take target locks as normal at ships in range 1-2.

Zuckuss: You may now only use this ability against ships inside your firing arc.

etc.

etc.

etc.

FFG could have like, 20 to 30 of these tweaks in play at any given time, and you know what? It'd be fine. People who go to tournaments would know them. I mean heck, you guys all know what 140+ upgrades/ships/pilots do, what's a few more to that list? The important thing is that things like the Scyk "fix" wouldn't take 2 years to come around the bend.

I also think that while this solution isn't exactly "elegant", tournament players as a community can handle it, and it's the most realistic long term fix there is.

I don't think there's a problem with the game. I was getting down on the game a couple months back because Palp Defenders seemed too good and playing anything else didn't seem worth it. Pretty much, every week since then, I've brought a new list to play and it's really opened my eyes. I think the game is more strategic now and player skill is more important. All the tools are there.

The problem with the power creep argument is it's not taking into account how strong the best lists were relative to everything else. I think the metagame is more open now than in many previous metagames. Right now, there is a clear top tier but it's not stronger relative to the rest of the metagame than in previous metagames. We have a pretty mature player base where I play on Fridays and it seems like a different list is winning every week. We've had Palp Defenders, Fangaroo, Bossk/Dengar and four X-Wings win the last four weeks. There is literally not a repeat ship winning in the last month. It's a solid player base, as well. We have 3-4 regional top 8 players (from 100+ player regionals) playing every week. Our scene keeps growing because some of us play everywhere locally and make friends from a lot of stores and are constantly talking about the game and recent changes. That means new players aren't caught off guard when they see how the game really is. We try to give them real lists up front so they get a real taste for the game instead of just getting tied to ships because they like them thematically. This is a strategy game after all.

The game is more calculating now. You can't just out PS a Whisper and auto-win your match anymore because everyone has the tools to win if they bring something reasonable and fly excellently. There's less slop in the game now. I think since the game has gotten more calculating and grindy, some players don't like that style of game. We've moved on from every game being a joustfest. The style of the game has changed. It was hard for me to see without getting out of my box and trying new things. Players need to evolve with the game. I've been playing since Wave III and I have more appreciation for this game now than ever before.

I agree that the game is "more strategic" now due to the large amount of options.

It's up for discussion of course how much a part of X-Wing list building is - and should be. I know stayontheleader thinks it's not really a required skillset for the game. Personally the tinkering is part of the fun for me, but I definitely netlisted before.

I disagree that the way it evolved is a good direction due to a single problem: The Star Wars game doesn't field many Star Wars ships! This is not an argument about balance, but about the health of the game and its future.

I have mine in a cupboard in the dining room. Everyone recognizes TIE fighters and the Advanced, and X/Y/A/B-Wings and the Falcon. But if you compare this to the top lists at a random tournament, you'll not see them very often there.

Could you sell someone the bluff that you're playing Battleship Galctica TMG, or Star Trek TMG, or HALO TMG? Currently your odds are rather good for this. And that irks many of us, evidently.

Edit: also you call the game "more grindy". Which is to me synonymous for "less fun". And it seems I'm not alone in that.

Honestly, I think that the best "fix" for this game is simply for FFG to come to terms with the fact that this game is incredibly difficult to keep in balance (or like, nearly impossible) and open themselves up to a Rules Section which has point and ship adjustments for official tournament play (which they can update every 3-4 months).

This game is hard to balance because power creep is a fact of life ( impossible to avoid) and ultra competitive tournament players always demand the bleeding edge in terms of efficiency. Something being 1pt over or undercosted is a really big deal. X-Wing 2.0 isn't really a good solution, because at the time of reset you could level the playing field to a much closer set of balance, but as time progresses, you'd have no way for that game not to fall into the exact same pitfalls as the first iteration of the game, and then you're in the same boat.

They already opened the flood gates for tournament level cards to function differently than what's printed on the card (Heavy Scyk title), so like...let's keep going with that. You can have the whole set of adjustments on a nice little 1pg section in the rules, which players can print out and bring with them. All the squad builder guys are pretty savy and would have them updated in moments. They can just like...update the section every 4 months and we're set.

Firesprays: This ship loses the evade action and gains the barrel roll action.

x7 Title: Cost increased by 1pt (to -1pt).

HWK: Increase primary weapon value by 1.

Long Range Scanners: Ships equipped with this may take target locks as normal at ships in range 1-2.

Zuckuss: You may now only use this ability against ships inside your firing arc.

etc.

etc.

etc.

FFG could have like, 20 to 30 of these tweaks in play at any given time, and you know what? It'd be fine. People who go to tournaments would know them. I mean heck, you guys all know what 140+ upgrades/ships/pilots do, what's a few more to that list? The important thing is that things like the Scyk "fix" wouldn't take 2 years to come around the bend.

I also think that while this solution isn't exactly "elegant", tournament players as a community can handle it, and it's the most realistic long term fix there is.

That sounds like a dreadful idea. There's already quite enough additional material (from the FAQ's) that a player needs to be aware of and/or have with them, and having the text on so many cards be inconsistent with what the current 'tweak' is for them will create a lot of confusion, particularly with points costs.

That isn't even beginning to touch on the arguments it would create on this forum alone as players bicker over what should be on that list of 'tweaks' and what shouldn't, or argue over the nature of said tweaks. At present we have quite enough threads complaining about the state of the game, something like this would send it into overdrive.

And as a final, more personal note, you leave my Defenders alone. Damnation, I waited long enough to get their fix, do not argue it needs to be removed again.

I've found it difficult to introduce the game to friends and family due to the sheer volume of ships and upgrade cards that I have. The number of ships isn't really a problem in practice, as people gravitate towards their favourites or what looks the coolest. But once the ship is selected and the pilot, the choice of upgrade cards is just overwhelming. I end up removing them entirely from early games, or preselecting the best ones. And that I suppose reveals another issue with the game and its bloat, some ships, pilots and upgrade cards are clearly better than others, but without the appropriate point cost to account for that difference in quality.

I don't know whether it's a tacit admission that some older cards are just badly costed, and that FFG essentially ignore these 'mistakes', but the method of costing cards seems to change every few waves. Power creep is inevitable, but the game had an in-built system to accommodate it. Sure, you could have a beefy PWT ship like the MF, but it would cost you about 4 TIEs and it would still have fundamental weaknesses. However, ships that were more or less balanced under one costing system are out of sync with ships balanced under another costing system. You have new copycat abilities/cards that are either cheaper or do it better for the same price.

Ideally, 100 pts should have a chance against any other 100 pts, period. There should be no auto-win match ups, this should always be a game of skill (with a healthy dose of luck) rather than rock-paper-scissors. And it sounds like many are perhaps falling out of love with the game because it's become too much of the latter.

-to be fair to X-wing, I'm finding similar problems in the LOTR LCG, which also too many player cards with quite a few of these being utterly useless -

"Ideally, 100 pts should have a chance against any other 100 pts, period. There should be no auto-win match ups, this should always be a game of skill (with a healthy dose of luck) rather than rock-paper-scissors. And it sounds like many are perhaps falling out of love with the game because it's become too much of the latter."

This. The fact that any list can't beat any other list shows how the game is poorly designed from a player perspective but excellent from a sales perspective.

I am a new player. I play with my wife, daughter and a couple of friends.

I love X-Wing

I love the variety of ships, a love the many options you have, I love the "old guard" of characters, and the newer ones I didn't know about (from Rebels, or minor characters in films).

I don't know much about meta-changes (other than what I read on the webz), power creep or anything else.

I can see the game would have been different with only the original ships, but there is nothing to stop me and my friends only using those if we want. The "game" hasn't changed, just the choices available... and they are just that - choices.

I understand tournament type players cant just use the elements they enjoy, BUT having played many wargames systems the worse thing is not to introduce variety... regular additions that change the "meta" keep it constantly fresh, but whilst Defenders / Dengaroo... etc are popular now it is sure that soon things will change.

So, in all. Life is Good. Have fun, and fly casual peeps :-)

I don't think there's a problem with the game. I was getting down on the game a couple months back because Palp Defenders seemed too good and playing anything else didn't seem worth it. Pretty much, every week since then, I've brought a new list to play and it's really opened my eyes. I think the game is more strategic now and player skill is more important. All the tools are there.

The problem with the power creep argument is it's not taking into account how strong the best lists were relative to everything else. I think the metagame is more open now than in many previous metagames. Right now, there is a clear top tier but it's not stronger relative to the rest of the metagame than in previous metagames. We have a pretty mature player base where I play on Fridays and it seems like a different list is winning every week. We've had Palp Defenders, Fangaroo, Bossk/Dengar and four X-Wings win the last four weeks. There is literally not a repeat ship winning in the last month. It's a solid player base, as well. We have 3-4 regional top 8 players (from 100+ player regionals) playing every week. Our scene keeps growing because some of us play everywhere locally and make friends from a lot of stores and are constantly talking about the game and recent changes. That means new players aren't caught off guard when they see how the game really is. We try to give them real lists up front so they get a real taste for the game instead of just getting tied to ships because they like them thematically. This is a strategy game after all.

The game is more calculating now. You can't just out PS a Whisper and auto-win your match anymore because everyone has the tools to win if they bring something reasonable and fly excellently. There's less slop in the game now. I think since the game has gotten more calculating and grindy, some players don't like that style of game. We've moved on from every game being a joustfest. The style of the game has changed. It was hard for me to see without getting out of my box and trying new things. Players need to evolve with the game. I've been playing since Wave III and I have more appreciation for this game now than ever before.

I agree that the game is "more strategic" now due to the large amount of options.

It's up for discussion of course how much a part of X-Wing list building is - and should be. I know stayontheleader thinks it's not really a required skillset for the game. Personally the tinkering is part of the fun for me, but I definitely netlisted before.

I disagree that the way it evolved is a good direction due to a single problem: The Star Wars game doesn't field many Star Wars ships! This is not an argument about balance, but about the health of the game and its future.

I have mine in a cupboard in the dining room. Everyone recognizes TIE fighters and the Advanced, and X/Y/A/B-Wings and the Falcon. But if you compare this to the top lists at a random tournament, you'll not see them very often there.

Could you sell someone the bluff that you're playing Battleship Galctica TMG, or Star Trek TMG, or HALO TMG? Currently your odds are rather good for this. And that irks many of us, evidently.

Edit: also you call the game "more grindy". Which is to me synonymous for "less fun". And it seems I'm not alone in that.

Well, yes, if you want to limit this game to the simplest, most mathematically efficient ships in the game, I suppose that's what you want. That was wave 1-3. Just take a bunch of points-efficient ships and be done with it.

"Ideally, 100 pts should have a chance against any other 100 pts, period. There should be no auto-win match ups, this should always be a game of skill (with a healthy dose of luck) rather than rock-paper-scissors. And it sounds like many are perhaps falling out of love with the game because it's become too much of the latter."

This. The fact that any list can't beat any other list shows how the game is poorly designed from a player perspective but excellent from a sales perspective.

So you think list-building should play no role or a very small role in X-wing, and no matter what random selection of ships you put on the table they should stand a decent chance against even the most finely-tweaked competitive list ?

PS: not saying this is a wrong attitude in any way, just that it might drive away other kinds of people (those who enjoy list building).

"Manaroo: focus

Asajj: [has focus from Mindlink]: either target lock or evade

Fenn: [has focus from Mindlink]: either target lock or boost/barrel roll, occasionally double up on focus.

Manaroo: passes a focus to either Asajj or Fenn (whoever is getting attacked), then gets one back via Mindlink.

Asajj: gain a free evade via stress mechanic and Latts."

vs

Garven Dreis can give his focus token to a ship range 1-2 after he uses it.

That's what's wrong with X wing now.

Why even bother with actions at all? Just change the rules to say the newest ship gets as many tokens of its choice, and stress doesn't do anything to it.

This

"Manaroo: focus

Asajj: [has focus from Mindlink]: either target lock or evade

Fenn: [has focus from Mindlink]: either target lock or boost/barrel roll, occasionally double up on focus.

Manaroo: passes a focus to either Asajj or Fenn (whoever is getting attacked), then gets one back via Mindlink.

Asajj: gain a free evade via stress mechanic and Latts."

vs

Garven Dreis can give his focus token to a ship range 1-2 after he uses it.

That's what's wrong with X wing now.

Why even bother with actions at all? Just change the rules to say the newest ship gets as many tokens of its choice, and stress doesn't do anything to it.

This

This is a miniature game, though, so they've tried a few times to buff older ships with re- and new upgrades... But the availability of EPTs, action economy, effects of stress, maneuverability, and dice modifications are completely disproportionate between quite a few ships.

Whether it's X-Wing 2.0 or just a full revaluation of the currently lacking ships and/out overpowered upgrades is due.

It's all water under the bridge now but what FFG should have done is a much slower release of the varying ships and just had expansions be reskins of current ships with new pilots and new upgrades. Each ship ship should be closer to the total number of X Wing pilots and not 4 like some ships have. That could have kept the creep down and kept all ships in play. Too late now.

A few years ago it wasn't uncommon for a new player to show up with a core set excited to learn and play with their Star Wars ships...that rarely happens anymore. Walk into a FLGS today with X-Wing play ongoing and it's likely you'll see strictly meta lists on the tables and players preparing for the next tournament.

I ran into this on our league night this past week. I brought Parattani to practice flying it for a tourney on saturday (today), and went against a player who brought a mostly thematic list. I won, it was close, he's a good player, but all through the game was the specter of me playing a tournament list at our league. We do have achievements to encourage list variety, but sometimes I'm looking to get some time on my tourney game. As a mid tier player with some very spotty performance, I do want to improve my tournament skill.

"Ideally, 100 pts should have a chance against any other 100 pts, period. There should be no auto-win match ups, this should always be a game of skill (with a healthy dose of luck) rather than rock-paper-scissors. And it sounds like many are perhaps falling out of love with the game because it's become too much of the latter."

This. The fact that any list can't beat any other list shows how the game is poorly designed from a player perspective but excellent from a sales perspective.

One problem is that newer releases have the benefit of hindsight to previous releases. A lot of older upgrades and pilots seem pretty mild compared to new releases. Better point values, better action economies, etc.

Now, one way FFG could address this is card only expansions for existing ships, or sets of ships. A pack of new pilots (or old pilots with different abilities) that make older ships more competitive.

Highly doubtful they'd even do that, though. There's a lot of new Star Wars movies coming out, and the pressure to do expansions for those and to ignore the old ships is probably pretty strong.

@GreenDragoon - The reality is, even with the growth of the game last year, there still aren't that many people playing X-Wing. What that means is you have small groups of players having fun in different ways. Some people like the strategic, competitive way of flying. Some people like to tinker and come up with something new. Some people like to play theme games. With a relatively limited player pool, you're going to have a lot of conflicting ways of having fun. For instance, I don't really care about the theme much at all. I wasn't a Star Wars fan until after I started playing the game. I strongly prefer competitive, grindy, skill-testing games. I don't care if you're netlisting. I prefer it because it tests my skills better to fly against something powerful. I fully understand and appreciate other people's ways of having fun, too.

What we're talking about here are tournaments, though. Every ship in the game shouldn't be competitive and it's not desirable if it were to ever happen. It makes things less predictable/more random. Most competitive players don't want increased randomness. There should be a good set of competitive lists, not just two or three. This game is far more diverse than games like Magic the Gathering. I've been playing all kinds of different squads and there's a lot of diversity in the metagame right now.

So, with a limited number of players having conflicting ways of having fun, someone's going to feel alienated. I don't think the game is broken by any means. Players can try to organize casual theme tournaments. In my experience, competitive players love the game just as much as anyone and like playing many different forms of the game than the standard 100pt dogfight.

I think the game is really healthy right now from a competitive standpoint. Lots of skill is involved and many different lists are viable. We do have a lot of conflicting interests, though, and the standard 100pt dogfight may not be well-suited for everyone's playstyle. Grow the game, grow the community, and you'll find more like-minded players that you can create special tournaments or play sessions around.

EDIT: spelling

Well, yes, if you want to limit this game to the simplest, most mathematically efficient ships in the game, I suppose that's what you want. That was wave 1-3. Just take a bunch of points-efficient ships and be done with it.

I don't follow. Why do you think I want that?

Eh

Honestly the most upsetting thing, apart from the continued existence of mindless PWTs, is that ffg seems to arbitraryily assign power to their new releases

Even in the zaney world of the x7s, Ks and ARCs can compete quite well

But the U, oh that poor beautiful bugger.

All it gets for a clunky large base and very clunky 0k is 1agi over the B

If only pivot wing landing had been like lightning reflexes or something. Now THAT wouldve made for an awesome ship as well as model

But the U, oh that poor beautiful bugger.

Whenever a ship comes out, anything that's said about that ship's power level and playability is usually wrong until at least three months after its release.

The U-Wing is very similar to the Lambda in stats and maneuvers (slightly better everywhere, slightly more expensive as well), and I don't think anybody would say that the Lambda is currently unplayable. Very possible that somebody finds a competitive niche for the ship soon.

Lambda isnt playable as much as palp is

Given the rather stupid ease that ships such as cheri, defenders, dengaroo and asajj have of getting around it, it is very unlikely to see competitive play

No5 so much a problem of mods asthat itisnt maneuverable enough for how decently but not overpoweringly strong it is

Given the rather stupid ease that ships such as cheri, defenders, dengaroo and asajj have of getting around it, it is very unlikely to see competitive play

Just like the YV-666, yeah.

Given the rather stupid ease that ships such as cheri, defenders, dengaroo and asajj have of getting around it, it is very unlikely to see competitive play

Just like the YV-666, yeah.

Also powerful antigreen modsin zuckuss4lomdengar

False parallel is false

Given the rather stupid ease that ships such as cheri, defenders, dengaroo and asajj have of getting around it, it is very unlikely to see competitive play

Just like the YV-666, yeah.

False parallel is false

Of course it is. What I'm getting at: It's "very possible that somebody finds a competitive niche for the ship soon" - meaning, a combo like YV-666 with Dengar/Zuckuss/Bossk, or Lambda with Palp, where the U-Wing shines in its context despite all the things that speak against it as a general-purpose ship.

And until 3-ish months after everybody has had access to the ship, it's too early to tell whether anybody will find such a combo. Just remember how the G1-A was proclaimed to be dead on arrival. It isn't super competitive or overpowered now, but there are lists that work with its strengths and can handle its weaknesses.

there needs to be something to find, first

and while rebel crew are decent, they simply do not hold a candle to palp and the party crew

not to mention FFG dropped the ball hard on the unfortunate cast of rogue 1. Cassian and Jyn are quite good, but the rest of the poor saps are actually competitively useless

and the only problem with Jyn is that, while Heffe makes a great support, freaking VCX Kanan is far more monstrous with it