Zuckuss for1 point is ridiculous.

yeah, FFG has been (in all fairness) releasing some wildly silly cards on the spectrum from super competitive to "basically worthless, even in casual games"

Bodhi and Baze occupy the worthless spot, being so **** cornercase that they're hardly even likely to trigger in a given game

and lets not forget r3 astromech!

I'm not sure what is compelling them to release such rigid trigger restrictions on cards that give incredibly marginal benefits (baze/r3)

or just incredibly marginal benefits of questionable usefulness (bodhi)

imo, that's infinetly more upsetting than releasing super competitive upgrades

because you get hype for, ultimately, nothing

Bad / lazy design? Scum fanboys in charge of development?

Bad / lazy design? Scum fanboys in charge of development?

nah

if it were, kylo and hux would be just as awful

But the U, oh that poor beautiful bugger.

Whenever a ship comes out, anything that's said about that ship's power level and playability is usually wrong until at least three months after its release.

The U-Wing is very similar to the Lambda in stats and maneuvers (slightly better everywhere, slightly more expensive as well), and I don't think anybody would say that the Lambda is currently unplayable. Very possible that somebody finds a competitive niche for the ship soon.

The Lambda is played because it's the cheapest 2 crew slot ship to take palatine that imperials have.

If the was a cheapest alternative, that would be the one used.

Remove Palpatine from the game and you won't ever see a Lambda Shuttle in a tournament match.

It's because FFG are basically clueless and can't tell how powerful something is. There's not many FFG-originated games that are actually well designed, I mean even in X-Win they basically ripped off the good bit (maneuvering) from Wings of War after license negotiations fell through then proceeded to stick some half-assed flavour and combat mechanics over the top which have basically been crippling development of the game ever since.

Armada's pretty good at it, though

while some ships are a bit more difficult to effectively use, just about everything is viable when correctly built around. There are no non-biggs x-wings in armada, and even the actual x-wings are pretty good!

that and they learned from large ship movement nonsense in X-wing by making ships move front-to-front of the template instead of back-to-front

makes you think they learned, but then stuff like r3, baze and bodhi makes me scratch my head

It's because FFG are basically clueless and can't tell how powerful something is. There's not many FFG-originated games that are actually well designed, I mean even in X-Win they basically ripped off the good bit (maneuvering) from Wings of War after license negotiations fell through then proceeded to stick some half-assed flavour and combat mechanics over the top which have basically been crippling development of the game ever since.

I'm all for bashing FFG design when they deserve it since they ruined my former favorite game, Netrunner. However, I think they've done a good to great job with the game since the earlier waves.

People complained about overpowered PWTs and they adjusted the metagame so PWTs weren't the be-all-end-all that they were. People complained about the Phantom because it was the best small ship in the game by a pretty wide margin. You didn't have to be all that good when you could decloak and move on your turn after you saw where your opponent went. There was no good counter to it like now with Zuckuss, Feedback, Black Market Slicer Tools, etc. Rebel Regen is one of the most miserable mechanics in the game. There weren't a whole lot of ways to push uncontested damage though, like now. You see Rebel Regen now but it's balanced versus the metagame.

Basically, everyone can modify their dice now any number of ways. This is a very good thing because now the player who flies better should win, not someone who just wins in the list-building phase. Every single complaint on these threads can be handled by improved flying or taking more calculated risks. I think many people actually liked it when flying was less important than list-building. Baffles me. The game is fine, the metagame is balanced right now. Rebels are a little soft just because they don't quite have the same number of tools that the other factions have but they still have some very good lists right now. The game is more skill intensive now than it's ever been, at least while I've been playing.

Bodhi as crew was probably developed after Bodhi as pilot - the pilot version is an okay ability because it applies to your whole squad, as crew it's a little janky for now because it's just one ship for a Crew slot.

Feel like FFG is almost trying to play the long game right now - they make up new utility which may or may not have a place right now, may or may not have a call right now, but eventually as new stuff appears it may find a useful place. Spitballing, for instance, Bodhi crew is pretty cheap, if there was a Crew/Tech option for Rebels, would you combine him with Targeting Synchronizer and missiles? This might be a thing people do, but right now the place for that option doesn't exist.

It's because FFG are basically clueless and can't tell how powerful something is. There's not many FFG-originated games that are actually well designed, I mean even in X-Win they basically ripped off the good bit (maneuvering) from Wings of War after license negotiations fell through then proceeded to stick some half-assed flavour and combat mechanics over the top which have basically been crippling development of the game ever since.

There's a difference between "well-designed game" (which I think Xwing is, and so are a lot of their other games) and a game that is designed to last and maintain competitive balance for years after its inception. X-Wing was not really designed initially for what we're seeing now (in-house they didn't really expect it to go beyond Wave 3), especially as popular as it is. In fact, hardly any games are.

in-house they didn't really expect it to go beyond Wave 3

That's interesting. Do you have a source for that?

The subject of this thread is 100% correct. There is a rant meta. One particular upgrade card or perceived imbalance doesn't scare away newcomers, incessant complaining does.

in-house they didn't really expect it to go beyond Wave 3

That's interesting. Do you have a source for that?

It's something that I had heard from a couple of different FFG employees and at different times. I also thought that the developers said it in an interview I heard at some point, but both were some time ago.

in-house they didn't really expect it to go beyond Wave 3

That's interesting. Do you have a source for that?

It's something that I had heard from a couple of different FFG employees and at different times. I also thought that the developers said it in an interview I heard at some point, but both were some time ago.

also the only logical explanation for the PWT mechanic in a game based around maneuvering

in-house they didn't really expect it to go beyond Wave 3

That's interesting. Do you have a source for that?

It's something that I had heard from a couple of different FFG employees and at different times. I also thought that the developers said it in an interview I heard at some point, but both were some time ago.

also the only logical explanation for the PWT mechanic in a game based around maneuvering

It's also strange to think but this game was being designed (2011 and released: Sept 2012) before Disney bought Lucasfilm (October of the same year), so there wasn't really knowledge or even the chance to gamble on a Star Wars explosion until later, which helped catapult the game to further success and popularity.

PWTs were ok when they were first introduced, it was just one ship (and a very expensive ship that had clear weaknesses) and made that ship (a beloved design) unique. Since then though it's on how many ships now and how many secondary turret weapons have been added?

Doesnt really change the fact that it is piss poor design

The mobile arc is the correct way to do that mechanic

The real problem that FFG game design has is that they are reactive not proactive.

The meta right now is "great" in that there are lot's of options, there still remains the issue that for every viable game component (Ship, Pilot, Upgrade) there are 4 other ones that SUCK. This kind of design bloat is in no way, shape or form "fun" for player's that play anything but top tier ship's, especially when it's a casual player getting stomped in a random friendly match at their local gaming location or a newbie flying rock-bottom tier ships because they don't know better / own better. The issue is redoubled by the fact that the Iconic ships that draw people to the game (Anything that appears in a movie) are trash tier or don't operate the way they do on screen (X-Wings are trash in general, Y-Wing's cant do torpedoes, Tie swarms get dumped on by some currently popular ships).

The last issue is the rule bloat. When every ship that's worth playing is flown with at least 4 cards attached that makes it hard to bring people to the game! Whenever I try to induct a newb I find myself encouraging them to splash money on 6-8 ships to star with so that they can start playing ("Oh you like rebels? I highly recommend the FA-Starter, Heroes of the resistance, A-Wing (PTL) and and the Old starter too for R2-D2.), still, be prepared to be shat on everytime you see a Lambda Shuttle!")

I think that we really need a do-over on a lot of individual pilots, ships and upgrades, the kind of changes Deadeye and Heavy Skyg got as well as some point rebalance.

On a few upgrades, point's need to go up, ever since they were released they have over performed.

In this regard I would like to see some scaling point costs, in the good old days of 40k Warhammer some upgrades would cost differently on squad leaders compared to army leader's, due to the fact that the same upgrade taken on a squad leader simply didn't have the same damage output as the army leader with that same upgrade.

The rule might read:

Where an Upgrade's point cost is listed as X / Y.

The upgrades cost depends on the pilot skill of the ship, ships with a pilot skill lower than 6 must pay the X cost whilst ships with pilot skill of 6 or higher must pay Y.

Example 1:

Push the limit.

(Text unchanged).

Cost: 3 / 4.

In this case the upgrade costs 4 points on Soontir and 3 points on a Saber squadron.

Example 2:

Shield upgrade.

(Text unchanged).

Cost 2 / 4.

On a lot of upgrades the cost needs to go down or mechanic's modified.

In this case I would love to see more limited-use mechanic's introduced that make some upgrades have innate "ammunition" that run's out.

The rule might read:

Expending X .

An Expending upgrade can only be used a limited number of times. At the beginning of the first planning phase place X focus tokens on this upgrade, after each time you use that card's effect remove 1 focus token from it, if no focus tokens remain on the card immediately flip it facedown , it may not be used for the remainder of the game.

Example 1:

Zuccuss.

Expending 2.

(text otherwise unchanged).

Cost 1.

Example 2:

Proton torpedoes.

Expending 2.

(text otherwise unchanged).

Cost 4.

Example 3:

Daredevil.

Expending 3.

(Damage mechanic removed).

Cost: 2.

Example 4:

Lightning reflexes.

Expending 2.

(Regular discard mechanic removed).

Cost: 1.

Then there's upgrades and pilots and ships that are simply over-costed.

Expose, opportunist, Outmaneuver, Autoblaster.

I don´t want X-wing 2.0. I want an expansion booklet containing a collection of pilot cards and upgrade cards (1 for each faction) that replace old versions of themselves. Each pack would contain 1 of every upgraded unique pilot, 3 of every generic, and 1 or 2 of every updated upgrade card. Produces ship packs from then on would of course contain the new versions.

Can I be honest here? The fact that newbs get blown out with trash lists is the communities fault, not the game's. I play everywhere I can weekly and what myself and friends do is bring multiple strong lists with us to give to new players to use for the event. New players get a taste of the real game and we don't seal club them. They might lose but they know why and they're not berated for it. No one laughs when a newb brings X-Wings.

When you teach them why they should be choosing another maneuver and let them take back simple mistakes, it builds a community. You grow friendships and everyone gets better. They start winning some store credit and building a collection themselves because you took the time to grow their place in the community. If you want to grow a community, you have to invest in it.

There is no game where everything printed for that game is competitive. I've played Magic for over 20 years and I can tell you that it's far less diverse in that game than X-Wing. This game has plenty of viable lists and counter tactics to the most prevalent squads.

Can I be honest here? The fact that newbs get blown out with trash lists is the communities fault, not the game's.

Can I be honest here?

A list containing Luke, Wedge, and Biggs (The 3 most famous X-Wing pilots). Trash.

Or how about Boba Fett and Darth Vader? Trash.

Hey, how about a Rogue One inspired list with Garvin and Dutch Vander? Trash.

How about Lando and Wedge, you know the RoTJ combo!!!? Trash.

Vader, Mauler Mithel, Backstabber, and friends. You know, the Imperials do it from behind list? Trash.

This absolutely is a fault of the game. How about we stop ignoring the lackluster job developers have done with keeping the early releases viable? Giving them a free pass when they have done such a poor job of incorporating classic and famous pilots accomplishes nothing. There is very little from waves 1 - 3 that can still be used in the game effectively today, and since waves 1 - 3 contained the most iconic ships and pilots; that is a substantial detriment to a game that relies on getting casual players to the table.

I could go on and on about the ever expanding FAQ and unnecessary game complexity, but let's be honest this is not the choir to be preaching that to.

You have a point about the community not grinding newbies to dust, but honestly, currently it is way too easy to put a trash list together. I'm not seeing a whole lot of reasons to continue investing money into this game.

savage but I have to agree with you. I miss wave 1-3 :/

Again, there isn't a single expandable game where every printing remains viable throughout the game's lifespan. The fact that as much of the old stuff is still playable after ten waves is a testament to good design, not bad. I think you have very unrealistic expectations.

I am a relatively new player (been playing about 2 years) and I absolutely love where the game is at. Hands down. Maybe it's because I never experienced the wave 1-3 jousting meta? But, when players can take a "non-meta" list to a tournament and make the cut, that tells me that there is still a place for creative list building and good flying, and I think that is telling of good design. I'm happy with the current imbalances as long as they FAQ cards or introduce fixes from time to time.

That said, I do wish they would slow down the rate of release a bit. I think there are ideas/build that get left in the dust by a new release because everyone is so quick to move on to the new thing. And if you want to be good with a list, you (or at least I) need to spend time flying over and over. It makes the game less overwhelming too when you don't need to buy/learn new things every 3 months, but can focus on developing with what you already have. I think a slower release rate would also make more room for alternative casual formats to develop and be created (e.g HOTAC, Mari Kart, Tron, etc).

But alas, the game we love is tied to the Disney/Star Wars marketing monster, and, like it or not, Star Wars is a machine designed to make money, and Disney is milking it for every penny. I don't expect them to slow down any time soon.

Lot of talk about a reboot, well WizKids are now in the process of doing just that for Attack Wing. They have announced that they will release an updated rulebook with timing chart and full updated FAQ, a contents pack which has all errata'd card text, including pilot and ship cards with adjusted points.

Then they are going to release blisters with updated models and cards.

However, the feel is that this is more out of an act of desperation then anything else. The game is at wave 27 or something and the combos are unreal.

Hope this doesnt happen to X wing.