I don't think it's about a disadvantage , at least not for me. It's about whether it's actually an enjoyable experience regardless of whether you win or lose.

I don't mind losing so long as I enjoyed the game.

Edit: I also think the original post wasn't about the game being off-putting to new players, but about old players leaving the game to play something else.

Sorry to hear that you are the only person still interested in your local area. A few have left, but there has been an upturn in my area. Even started talking to destiny players while I'm playing against them about x wing. Might get a few more people interested. Some times people just need a break and come back later.

To be brutally honest, the majority of you sound like the buzz kill at parties that there is no pleasing no matter how you slice it. If you honestly, truly believe that the meta is terrible right now. Then so be it, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I know, for my part, from playing since wave 0. That's the largest bunch of excrement I've heard.

Sadly some of the metas around the world, are pretty saturated with one or two lists, and that's sad. But it's usually the same people that complain about stale metas and that they can't use lists they find fun to win, blame list building a lot more then their own personal skill. They are so quick to take nothing from their loses outside of them losing. Which leads to them going to a netlist and blaming the meta of others for shaping theirs. You should always learn from your loses, and the moment you blame dice or another person taking a netlist shows you learned nothing.

If you are having a problem getting new players into the game due to squad building, I will blame your teaching skills or their comprehension skills. 40k is still vastly more complex and people still are starting into that.

If the tournament scene is dry for you, it might be time to switch it up, HotAC (not a fan personally), X Kart, and running the missions in large box expansions are all possibilities.

But in the end, it's up to each individual for their own personal enjoyment. So if it's no longer your thing, so be it. But don't blame the game for trying to keep itself interesting and going.

Yeah, I know this came off vindictive, but I'm getting tired of the blame the game not the player attitudes on these forums.

PS. Every ship they have released outside of the E and TIE phantom I recognized instantly as star wars because I'm a true fan and know that the SW universe spans more then just the movies. I personally was delighted to see the scum ships from SWG make their way into this game.

Also if you for an instant believe 2.0 will make the game less complicated and not have even more options, I can't fathom the logic required to get that idea.

Isn't any game that's been around for four years going to have newer players at a disadvantage against experienced ones?

Maybe... Chess for example - a experienced player has an 'advantage' over a newer player in that he has developed his ability to plan ahead and recognise patterns in the game. He doesn't however, have an advatage in the fact that his pieces are better than the new players pieces (eg they have some efficiency or combination advantages) and thats the point I think that is being made.

Chess is obviously an extreme example, but I think what people are saying is that as the game grows (and creeps a little) the advantage of the experienced player increase disproportionately and than can be seen as a problem for getting new players into the game.

Sadly some of the metas around the world, are pretty saturated with one or two lists, and that's sad. But it's usually the same people that complain about stale metas and that they can't use lists they find fun to win, blame list building a lot more then their own personal skill. They are so quick to take nothing from their loses outside of them losing. Which leads to them going to a netlist and blaming the meta of others for shaping theirs. You should always learn from your loses, and the moment you blame dice or another person taking a netlist shows you learned nothing.

I think that's often true and I've blogged about that in past. For me it's not about results - if I wanted to win at X-Wing I could certainly win a lot more than I am doing by deliberately handicapping myself with the likes of Outer Rim Smuggler - but about the game being an interesting and enjoyable use of my time. I haven't lost a competitive game with TIE Defenders but I'd rather lose with Outer Rim Smuggler than win with Countess Ryad, so long as I'm enjoying the game I lose.

I got to this point with Netrunner and ultimately left the game, only for FFG to finally fix all the problems after I'd gone by introducing the restrictions needed to make the game healthy. I'd hate to sell out of X-Wing just as the necessary bannings come in to fix the game.

How could a true SW fan not recognize the TIE Phantom? Rebel Assault II was a classic! The first time they shot new live action footage with the original props in like a decade! Of course it's cheesy beyond belief and way too easy to beat in one sitting. The E-wing was all over the place in the mid 90s too.

All True SW fans can remember a time when Star Wars was the title of a movie, not just Episode IV.

One of the challenges we face when introducing people to X wing is that initially they appreciate the game system and dog fighting etc, then they get an understanding of it, move away from their favourite ships in favour of "stronger" ones and then you have this dreaded conversation:

Person 1: "What list are you running?"

Person 2: "Corran / Miranda, its gaining popularity and I am trying to get to grips with it, you?"

Person 1: "Figured I would try out a Garven / Dutch combo, you know, one target locks and the other focus, seems legit!"

One stomping later.

Person 1: "Wow, you still have all your shields, crumbs, what a list!"

Person 2: "Yeah. . "

Person 1: "I may pick up those two ships and try it out for myself."

Person 2: "Cool, you will need an E-wing and a K wing obviously which is good because that will give you a extra munitions card, a single connor net and also the Twin Laser Turret you need, then you need an A wing for Push the Limit and Homing Missile, the starter set for R2-D2, a YT-1300 for engine upgrade and a B wing for Fire Control System. Then a VCX for Sabine crew and another two connor nets somehow, so . . . maybe another two K wings ?"

Person 1: "What . . . . I am not buying a Falcon, a B wing and a Ghost just for one blasted card!"

Person 2: "Well . . you could get them second hand I guess?"

Person 3 "That's nothing, wait until you want to run an Imperial Aces list and need Palpatine or you want to run the Falcon, old school. You will need the Raider and Corvette for those."

Person 1: "Seriously? I need to buy those massive things for a single card, can't I just borrow or proxy?"

Person 2: "No proxies allowed in tournaments and they only come with one copy of the card and I don't know ANYONE that has two. I mean, ha ha you can only use one in a Epic battle anyway right? Ha ha."

Person 1: "I'm out."

It does seem the competitive scene is putting a lot of people off specially with the prices of some of the lists you have to pay.

I haven't played competitively for over a year now, just casually with my friends and enjoyed it far much more than I have in a long time. In fact last night we increased the points and had a match up of ghost, U wing, x wings and Y wings vs a swarm of tie fighters, bombers and strikers with a lambda!

Not to beat a dead horse (actually I think I will beat a dead horse for the sake of this post).

I see a lot of suggestions about re-injecting fun by getting away from the old 100/6. While I'm probably a bit biased, I think this brings us back around again to the notion that FFG should really consider changing the tourney format to either include 100/6 and a separate competitive mission series OR just make it a competitive mission series which would include a 100/6 mission. Keeps things interesting, and allows tweaking of squad lists without errating a single card.

The only downside in my mind would be that the game would be even more complex, which could be a turn-off for a newbie.

On the other hand, part of the fun of Star Wars in my mind are the rebels taking on an impossible mission (either in the clone wars or in the movies) while the imperials try to stop them. Part of the fun of the game is the Star Wars nostalgia. We are getting away from that nostalgia everytime we fly a ship that no one has seen ever, or which has show up on screen for 1.5 seconds.

I submit that if we could get back to that nostalgia (in my mind the only way, at this point, to do so would be thematic flavor missions) than it would help a lot to keep older semi-competitive players interested enough to stay, and newbie players interested enough to learn the games increasing complexity.

I see a lot of suggestions about re-injecting fun by getting away from the old 100/6. While I'm probably a bit biased, I think this brings us back around again to the notion that FFG should really consider changing the tourney format to either include 100/6 and a separate competitive mission series OR just make it a competitive mission series which would include a 100/6 mission. Keeps things interesting, and allows tweaking of squad lists without errating a single card.

I think I don't follow. You want competitive missions ?

How did you not arrive at the conclusion that FFG might maybe have to shift its focus away from competitive play?

Or are you thinking about something like DnD - Adventure League where FFG/stores give missions and you can try to beat them? How could that be competitive as e.g. the PvE in WoW?

No, the tournament should stay as is. That's the bread and butter of the game. Implementing side tournaments with interesting mechanics though, say ala hanger bay, should be explored IMO.

@ Gibbilo:

A ship that was on screen for 1.5 sec, sounds like the B-wing to me!

@ Gibbilo:

A ship that was on screen for 1.5 sec, sounds like the B-wing to me!

Pretty sure the B-wing was a good 3.5 seconds. Makes a huge difference bro

Mentioned this in the past, and as I don't play competitively it may be a non-starter organisation-wise, but would increased emphasis on "Escalation" tournament content provide a 'half-way-house' between 100-6 and thematic games? - I assume the idea of netlist building for Escalation is potentially much more difficult [far greater variety to have to 'combat'], and perhaps more open to 'unusual' lists having a greater chance of doing well ?

If they kept the game to ships from the movies; Rebels would have A, B, X, Y and the Falcon and Empire would have Tie, Interceptor, Bomber, Advanced and the Lambda. FFG could have stopped releasing new ships after wave 3. That was never going to happen and pulling ships from other sources was inevitable.

Certainly we seem to be in the middle of a rant meta, since all anyone seems to do is complain about how 'ruined' the game apparently is.

It is unfortunate that your club appears to have lost it's X-Wing players, OP, but at the same time there's a certain level of responsibility among members of a gaming group to keep it open and inviting to newer players and keep things varied from the standard game, to avoid exactly the kind of burnout that seems to have hit there. Certainly 'Seal Clubbing' is something everyone has to be aware of and never allow to happen, and having a set of 'intro' lists on hand to teach the game at a more manageable level (as well as players willing and able to play and teach at that level) is essential, while fatigue can be countered with variant leagues, campaigns etc. As an example, I myself have run two seasons of 'Top Gun', with 30pt single ships fighting 1v1's with a selection of special custom upgrade cards to choose from.

It seems it may already be too late for that, though - if you've lost players to Blood Bowl, of all things, I fear there's no hope left.

Tue game is starting to suck.

Power creep is ridiculous. Scum are too powerful and nkt enjoyable to play against. Zuckus ruins games, Dengaroo and boskaroo are both not fun and way too powerful.

And none of them are recognizable sw ships.

They should have stuck with the original factions, we don't need scum and we don't need so many expansions. I haven't been playing in forever, but there are so many playable options with just s handful of ships and upgrade cards. There are too many now and they are released too quickly.

I'd like to play a few times with a list, make tweeks, experiment over months before moving onto a different list. It seems like most of you are excited to just spend money on whatever is released, before netlistjng the new hotness and driving the game further into the dirt.

It was fun while it lasted but greed sunk the game. It's a bloated, contorted phantasm of its former self.

Every last word of this is utter bilge to the stage where going through it point-by-point is redunant - all I'd be doing is direct contradiction each time. Chiefly, though, the idea that Scum should never have been added and are both 'too powerful' and 'not enjoyable' is a laughable notion that alone robs your opinions of any and all credibility.

I also agree that we didn't need the Scum Faction

Because of course, the game would be far better if a solid 1/3 of the options just weren't there.

Every wave we got new abilities, new - potentially game changing - upgrades and new powerful pilot abilities. I often like the new stuff but in certain amounts, I think it's just stepping sideways. Did we really needed "mobile arc"? Did we needed Tractor beam? Do we need abilities which mess with the deployment?

If you start applying that ridiculous 'logic' to the game, then you bring it to the obvious conclusion of 'did we really need anything that isn't core set X-Wings V TIE Fighters?'. No, I suppose we didn't 'need' any of it, but I sincerely doubt the game would be anywhere near as popular as it is now if we hadn't had them.

And I also agree with you on seeing way too much ships on the tables, which were never seen in any of the movies. Especially on the Scum side.

So? Star Wars, funnily enough, is a much bigger universe than just the films. There is a great deal appeal for fans of the old EU (for a lot of the more notable Scum ships) and newer fans (particularly younger ones) will be more familiar with the newer films (T-70 X- Wing, TIE/FO, TIE/SF, Quadjumper, U-Wing, TIE Striker) and Rebels (VCX-100, Phantom, Shadow Caster, Captured TIE), which is a wide range of ships they will recognise and be drawn to.
Star Wars is not just about us older folk who treasure the OT so fondly any more, and to expect the game to only represent what we consider Star Wars to be is selfish at best and downright ignorant at worst.

One thing I do agree about, though, is the speed of releases - as much as we all have to accept FFG's financial requirements, I do wish we could have some breathing room for a while. Wave 9 had barely hit the table before Wave 10 was being discussed in depth, which made it harder to appreciate (and experiment with) what we had. It would be nice to allow things to settle more before changing it all up again, and I hope we don't see anything about Wave 11 for quite a long time yet (6-8 months).

Tue game is starting to suck.

Power creep is ridiculous. Scum are too powerful and nkt enjoyable to play against. Zuckus ruins games , Dengaroo and boskaroo are both not fun and way too powerful.

And none of them are recognizable sw ships.

This.

Well done Force Kin......well done.

Our local Thursday night crew is a blend of new folks, old timers, casual players, and guys who host a popular podcast and can use challenge coins as shield tokens for their entire list. We fly whatever we want, we have fun. Last night, as a practice night for regionals, the call went out for meta lists to be played and fun still happened. I guess it boils down to having a good group of folks to play with. Our Lexington KY scene, while whittled down a bit by Destiny, is strong and a blast to play in.

I just adjust my list to who I will play. I can't build a bad list on purpose, though, so the way i do it is take a ship or gimmick and put that into the best possible list I can think of. Extreme case for someone who I know to be really new would be 3 Punishers. It is fun for me to see how far I can push suboptimal pieces (and a great exercise in squadbuilding) and my opponent will have a chance regardless of what he brings or owns. I also heavily encourage the use of squadbuilders and proxy cards.

It needs to be a widespreadhabit to build your squad in a way that your opponent will enjoy the game on game nights. That can include cutthroat competetive lists. I love playing those with the other guys that visit tournaments around here. That shouldn't be the only way to play, though.

Bonus: Sometimes you stumble upon something thats your own thing and works really well for yourself, i.e. my favourite Bomber list.

I don't see anything wrong with the game as it stands, with perhaps the sole exception of the rate of release for new product.

For every tactic there is a counter tactic. You just have to be open to that idea and evolve with/against what your local meta is doing.

In my circle of casual play friends, you still occasionally see a T65 that's not Biggs. While it's not as common as some older Ot fans would like, it can and does happen.

If 100/6 isn't your thing because it's no longer thematic, try the missions instead. Or organize a "time period" game where only certain models are permitted.

Xwing is not and will never be only about 100/6. That's just what one facet, tournament play, is.

As others have said this is a community issue. Here in NY we have plenty of stores and tournaments. The tournaments are all competitive and feature most of the netlists but the casual nights are just that. Probly half the people are playing tournament style lists while the other half are experimenting with other stuff and just having fun. It really helps to keep things more relaxed. You should try and do the same. We also have a league where you can't bring any unique ship in more than one list so you have to play different stuff every week. It is also great for keeping things fun.

I agree but the solution is quite simple. Play with people that simply want to enjoy the game and not to smash you. Play themed scenarios per example. Write some cool ideas and talk about them with your fellow players. Avoid 100/6 as the only way to play.

The simplicity of this game makes it great. Superb. Look the way hex and counters wargame scenarios are designed. No "100 pts to build your list". Varied situations and closed lists.

I ran away from hardcore gamers. IMHO X wing is playable in various settings. If you feel that Meta 100s is not the way you like... Welcome to casual scenario play

title's wrong

this is a meta rant, or a rant about the meta

granted, the thread is in perfect conformity with the rant meta of your typical internet community

Huh. I guess living in the outer rim has its silver lining after all. This is never a problem for this other side of the world .

No FFG OP support here means everyone is free to do their crazy shenanigans. Things like two punishers + vader or rage corran with no other upgrades lists do exist. We still play competitive lists, but none of the "boring" lists unless it's an actual tournament. Even then everyone would still try to come up with their own variation of the popular meta lists. It's just exciting to go down to my FLGS and see the funny and interesting shenanigans that other people have fun with.

To the OP - Get your casual, non-xwing friends to play! lend them your ships, define your own destiny! I do this from time to time and they always come up with exciting ideas and fly styles, interesting enough to distract you from your potential FLGS loss. try HOTAC as well!

lemmi guess, Singapore?

Sensor Jammers on generic TIE Advanced.

Marksmanship on Horton Hawg

Hot Shot Blaster/MF on Z-95s.

Fun stuff. Why doesn't anyone try these things? Seems like fun to me!

Edit: I also think the original post wasn't about the game being off-putting to new players, but about old players leaving the game to play something else.

I was referring to this part of the post:

We discussed the last time any noobs came into the store, maybe two months ago, and how they were accidentally paired with a couple of Munchkins, and how they've never been seen again.

That's not really anything to do with the game, but the attitude of the players. Of course an experienced player is going to beat a newbie. It's how that experienced player handles themselves that makes the difference. Gloat like an ass and that newbie is never going to want to play again. Try to be helpful and instructive and you've gained a new player.