I know this is forbidden or at least frowned upon but I can't for the life of me find in the rules or FAQ that states this is is not allowed.

Can someone help me out? This came up last night in our casual game where my opponent was trying to estimate where he'd wind up after a boost and barrel roll and I said they couldn't do that and my opponent disagreed. I'd like to show them the rules rather than just "people on forums said so."

The rules say that pre-measuring is not allowed.

This sounds like pre-measuring, ergo, not allowed.

It's pretty trivial to get to the point, on purpose or otherwise, that you know how long a certain template is relative to your fingers.

Where in the rules though?

practice more and pre measure with your eyes.

Can someone point me to the actual text of the rules that says you cannot pre measure?

FAQ page 5 tells you when you are allowed to measure things.

Edit to add this includes how/when to perform the barrel roll or boost measurements.

Where in the rules though?

FAQ Page 5

Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:

It then goes on to list the times you can measure. You therefor can not measure at any other point, using any sort of object including your fingers to measure.

Edit: To make it clear to everyone... BlodVargarna isn't asking if this is allowed, they want to have something to show someone else who thinks they should be able to do it.

And to speak directly of the example in your original post. Your opponent would have to declare that he intends to barrel roll to the (direction of choice) if it is at all possible for this to be completed it then HAS to happen. Same goes for the boost.

Right, but he dithered and started putting his fingers down on both sides of the ship before he declared.

That is definitely not legal.

There is no clear rule about not using your fingers. It is just always worded as you can't pre measure. But, because you can clearly know the size of your finger in relation to template, it seems common knowledge that you can't use your fingers.

Ain't no rule says you can't smash your opponent's ships with a brick, either.

X-wing's rules are exception-based - there's a general rule set that says what you CAN do, and the pilot and upgrade cards make exceptions to those general rules.

You *CAN'T* do anything that's not written in the rules reference or on the cards.

That's how rules... work.

Alex Davy told me at Gencon that using fingers counts as pre-measuring.

Alex Davy told me at Gencon that using fingers counts as pre-measuring.

And he'd be right.

The FAQ entry came about after several players failed to understand the rule that was written in the original rulebook (p6):

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

They seemed to interpret the rule as being able to use anything but the manoeuvre templates. Unfortunately, this is one passage from the old rulebook that never made it into the new rulebook. I think the developers have possibly relied on the FAQ a little too much, to fill in the "gaps" in the rules. It really should have been in the new rulebook, because it's still happening.

The original core rules state you are allowed to measure prior to committing to performing a barrel roll (Page 8 Core Rulebook.)

The player may measure to see if his ship can perform a barrel roll before committing to this action.

The FAQ redefines when you can measure for barrel roll and boosts to be after you declare that action and that if you CAN do it - You MUST. (Page 5 FAQ.)

When performing a barrel roll, a player must first declare from which side of the ship’s base the action will be performed. Then , he measures to see if the ship is able to perform a barrel roll action to any legal area on the declared side, moving the template as necessary. If the ship can perform the barrel roll action on the declared side, it must do so .

The FAQ also notes under Section 5 (page 20) that you can measure before committing to a boost - So this is confusing within the same document.

Q: When a player wishes to perform a boost action, can he measure to see if his ship can perform a boost before committing to this action (similar to a barrel roll)?

A: Yes . In formal and premier events, the player must declare the direction before attempting the maneuver (see "Performing a Barrel Roll" on page 5).

If I was a new player reading the rules and FAQ - I would be under the idea that you can pre-measure for both of those actions before committing to them - Or I would simply be confused. Using fingers wouldn't seem to be much different than using a template at that point.

Ain't no rule says you can't smash your opponent's ships with a brick, either.

X-wing's rules are exception-based - there's a general rule set that says what you CAN do, and the pilot and upgrade cards make exceptions to those general rules.

You *CAN'T* do anything that's not written in the rules reference or on the cards.

That's how rules... work.

There is no rule that let me put my hand on the table for preventing me from falling down when I do stuff far away.

There is also no rules that let me put my eye level with the table to see if my ship will pass and I can do it.

There is also no rule that state that I can look up above the field to see if range would make sense and I can.

There is no need for a rule for everything but at the same time. All of these are pre-measuring in some way but I can do them.

The finger measuring ban is just commun knowledge with no clear rule enforcing it.

Because with all of those things, you're doing it in your head.

Where in the rules though?

It doesn't matter. As you can see from the replies ANYTHING that can possibly give you knowledge of distance/direction will be considered pre-measuring by some. There are people who complain about using 100% completely legal measuring opportunities (seismic torpedoes even when the obstacles are 99.9% certainly out of arc or range) because they may give you more information to use to make your decisions.

Personally I think it is a stupid rule to have except that some would use the opportunity to measure everything to stall and claim it is perfectly legal to measure things over and over again. In a game with relatively perfect information being able to use something to make a good guess at where something would land seems like it should be permissible.

If I was a new player reading the rules and FAQ - I would be under the idea that you can pre-measure for both of those actions before committing to them - Or I would simply be confused.

It seems that FFG has never gone and and really wrote a new FAQ from the ground up so it still has remnants of old rules in it.

When X-Wing first came out, you could declare a barrel roll or boost and check to see if you could fit or not, even if you could fit, you were still able to change your mind and perform a different action. Same thing for TL's you could check the range to every ship on the board and then take a focus action.

Then they came up with the competitive rules, which were considered optional, but intended to be used in tournaments. With those you had to barrel roll/boost if you could fit, and you had to take a TL if you could.

With the TFA set they seemed make what were the competitive rules the standard rules.

But the FAQ is as I said largely copy/paste so there's still bits and pieces out there that don't really fit.

If I was a new player reading the rules and FAQ - I would be under the idea that you can pre-measure for both of those actions before committing to them - Or I would simply be confused.

It seems that FFG has never gone and and really wrote a new FAQ from the ground up so it still has remnants of old rules in it.

When X-Wing first came out, you could declare a barrel roll or boost and check to see if you could fit or not, even if you could fit, you were still able to change your mind and perform a different action. Same thing for TL's you could check the range to every ship on the board and then take a focus action.

Then they came up with the competitive rules, which were considered optional, but intended to be used in tournaments. With those you had to barrel roll/boost if you could fit, and you had to take a TL if you could.

With the TFA set they seemed make what were the competitive rules the standard rules.

But the FAQ is as I said largely copy/paste so there's still bits and pieces out there that don't really fit.

To the point of the OP, trying to show his opponent where it says you can't do that, you wind up looking to the FAQ - which contradicts itself.

Experienced players are familiar with the rulings, but when new players come in, trying to explain this all can be difficult.

I've been meaning to print out the full FAQ so I have all of the info handy when I go to local tournament.