I'd say no to both. I don't see this problem being, well, a problem. If somebody wants to hide their 18 points of ship in a corner... Awesome. That's a better ship that they are NOT taking. That's upgrades that I DON'T have to fight. And they get an activation in return... Okay, I can plan around that. And it's both factions that can do this. Even Steven.

It goes beyond 18 points (23 if you're Imperial). It's to stick your 20-38 Admiral as well. Because there are no limits on Admiral abilities because they're supposed to apply to the entire fleet, it's a little unrealistic that in a game that limits squadron commands to long range (when you buy boosted comms), an Admiral can apply his ability to the fleet from 3 movement tools away.

When you think about it compared to mechanics that already exist as well as a liberal application of logic, the entire premise is ridiculous.

It's not an inability to "deal with flotillas" that spawn these conversations. Why this mechanic even exists does. When it comes up, an extremely vocal minority stomp their feet and scream and howl, disrupting the conversation and derailing the debate while proclaiming themselves the majority party even though they usually have a high quantity of posts but of substantially lower quality.

Without polling every Armada player on the planet, there is no way to know which "side" has the majority in this conversation. As pointed out before, it doesn't really matter since FFG isn't asking our opinions since this isn't a democracy. It's a business. In a business, especially the tabletop business, to admit that you were wrong is to admit that you didn't think game mechanics through. That's bad business.

Although I don't care one way or another about how flotillas currently function, I really do think it never occurred to FFG that players would use them as lifeboats. It's because of that, and not their impact on the game itself, that motivates me to engage in these conversations.

Okay, just want to mention something really fast.

Does everyone remember what it was like before flotillas? How if you wanted to go full squadron you were horribly out-activated with two, MAYBE 3 ships? Or how extreme no squadron builds with Demolisher were able to triple tap literally any ship into oblivion? Oh yay, the commander is on the ISD and didn't get a chance to do anything because Demolisher erased it before it could fire a shot. HOW SPORTING OF HIM TO BE ON THAT SHIP I KILLED BEFORE HE COULD DO ANYTHING. This led to high activation fleets with a few squadrons, and an extremely frustrated player base trying to learn how to play against Demolisher, which led to being if you had Imperials, you had Demolisher or a high activation count (still usually with Demo), and if you went Rebels, you and Rieekan because then your dead ship at least had a chance to do something before exploding. This is of course extremely general, but I think a decent picture of what some of the state of the game was like.

Now, with flotillas, the game is more balanced. I even think MSU is now a bit of a misnomer because nearly all fleets I see have 5 activations, including lists with ISDs and MC80s, with some extremes going up to 7 or some heavy squadron builds going down to 4. And we have a ship that really punchy black-dice ship have trouble just murdering, due to the scatter, unless it is build to be a more generalist all-killers ship. And that is part of why I decided to start using a flotilla as a commander ship, because you were safer from black dice. The game is in an excellent state, diversity-wise. Activations have sort of settled into a less extreme state, where you usually aren't horribly activated, and if you are, you can toss some flotillas in the fray to do some slicer tooling, helping squadrons manipulate dice, or deny areas where threatening ships want to be.

Flotillas have added much to the diversity of the game. If you don't like having a commander on a flotilla, then don't do it. If seeing someone else do it injures your idea of Star Wars, then maybe you should do some house rule and start a campaign. But please, don't try and say the game was somehow better before flotillas, or they are ruining the game, because that is quite the opposite of my experiences.

I'd say no to both. I don't see this problem being, well, a problem. If somebody wants to hide their 18 points of ship in a corner... Awesome. That's a better ship that they are NOT taking. That's upgrades that I DON'T have to fight. And they get an activation in return... Okay, I can plan around that. And it's both factions that can do this. Even Steven.

It goes beyond 18 points (23 if you're Imperial). It's to stick your 20-38 Admiral as well. Because there are no limits on Admiral abilities because they're supposed to apply to the entire fleet, it's a little unrealistic that in a game that limits squadron commands to long range (when you buy boosted comms), an Admiral can apply his ability to the fleet from 3 movement tools away.

When you think about it compared to mechanics that already exist as well as a liberal application of logic, the entire premise is ridiculous.

It's not an inability to "deal with flotillas" that spawn these conversations. Why this mechanic even exists does. When it comes up, an extremely vocal minority stomp their feet and scream and howl, disrupting the conversation and derailing the debate while proclaiming themselves the majority party even though they usually have a high quantity of posts but of substantially lower quality.

Without polling every Armada player on the planet, there is no way to know which "side" has the majority in this conversation. As pointed out before, it doesn't really matter since FFG isn't asking our opinions since this isn't a democracy. It's a business. In a business, especially the tabletop business, to admit that you were wrong is to admit that you didn't think game mechanics through. That's bad business.

Although I don't care one way or another about how flotillas currently function, I really do think it never occurred to FFG that players would use them as lifeboats. It's because of that, and not their impact on the game itself, that motivates me to engage in these conversations.

I don't mind the commander flotilla in the corner. If the other guy wants to put his ship there, fine, it's one less ship in the fight. If he could do it before with a VSD or a CR90, then why is it suddenly worse because his new ship only costs 18 points?

If you want to argue Admiral abilities and distances, that's a different, potentially viable topic. But parking a ship far away has been legal since wave I.

Okay, just want to mention something really fast.

Does everyone remember what it was like before flotillas? How if you wanted to go full squadron you were horribly out-activated with two, MAYBE 3 ships? Or how extreme no squadron builds with Demolisher were able to triple tap literally any ship into oblivion? Oh yay, the commander is on the ISD and didn't get a chance to do anything because Demolisher erased it before it could fire a shot. HOW SPORTING OF HIM TO BE ON THAT SHIP I KILLED BEFORE HE COULD DO ANYTHING. This led to high activation fleets with a few squadrons, and an extremely frustrated player base trying to learn how to play against Demolisher, which led to being if you had Imperials, you had Demolisher or a high activation count (still usually with Demo), and if you went Rebels, you and Rieekan because then your dead ship at least had a chance to do something before exploding. This is of course extremely general, but I think a decent picture of what some of the state of the game was like.

Now, with flotillas, the game is more balanced. I even think MSU is now a bit of a misnomer because nearly all fleets I see have 5 activations, including lists with ISDs and MC80s, with some extremes going up to 7 or some heavy squadron builds going down to 4. And we have a ship that really punchy black-dice ship have trouble just murdering, due to the scatter, unless it is build to be a more generalist all-killers ship. And that is part of why I decided to start using a flotilla as a commander ship, because you were safer from black dice. The game is in an excellent state, diversity-wise. Activations have sort of settled into a less extreme state, where you usually aren't horribly activated, and if you are, you can toss some flotillas in the fray to do some slicer tooling, helping squadrons manipulate dice, or deny areas where threatening ships want to be.

Flotillas have added much to the diversity of the game. If you don't like having a commander on a flotilla, then don't do it. If seeing someone else do it injures your idea of Star Wars, then maybe you should do some house rule and start a campaign. But please, don't try and say the game was somehow better before flotillas, or they are ruining the game, because that is quite the opposite of my experiences.

Agreed. As far as I know, flotillas aren't being questions as squadron pushers or utility boats. It's their usefulness and much needed niche that make me believe they were pushed as a quick fix to a developing problem and it never occurred to FFG that they'd be made a flagship to go sit in a corner. It's a viable tactic, sure, but I think it's a viable tactic because FFG never took it happening into consideration because they were more focused on turning squadrons useful. Since they spent so much time making 5 packs worth of squadrons, they had to.

I'd say no to both. I don't see this problem being, well, a problem. If somebody wants to hide their 18 points of ship in a corner... Awesome. That's a better ship that they are NOT taking. That's upgrades that I DON'T have to fight. And they get an activation in return... Okay, I can plan around that. And it's both factions that can do this. Even Steven.

It goes beyond 18 points (23 if you're Imperial). It's to stick your 20-38 Admiral as well. Because there are no limits on Admiral abilities because they're supposed to apply to the entire fleet, it's a little unrealistic that in a game that limits squadron commands to long range (when you buy boosted comms), an Admiral can apply his ability to the fleet from 3 movement tools away.

When you think about it compared to mechanics that already exist as well as a liberal application of logic, the entire premise is ridiculous.

It's not an inability to "deal with flotillas" that spawn these conversations. Why this mechanic even exists does. When it comes up, an extremely vocal minority stomp their feet and scream and howl, disrupting the conversation and derailing the debate while proclaiming themselves the majority party even though they usually have a high quantity of posts but of substantially lower quality.

Without polling every Armada player on the planet, there is no way to know which "side" has the majority in this conversation. As pointed out before, it doesn't really matter since FFG isn't asking our opinions since this isn't a democracy. It's a business. In a business, especially the tabletop business, to admit that you were wrong is to admit that you didn't think game mechanics through. That's bad business.

Although I don't care one way or another about how flotillas currently function, I really do think it never occurred to FFG that players would use them as lifeboats. It's because of that, and not their impact on the game itself, that motivates me to engage in these conversations.

I refuse to believe that FFG didn't think people would use them as commander vessels, especially considering Tagge and Cracken come with them (and arguably, want to be on them in games). Combine that with Lando/Derlin on the Rebels and Minister Tua on the Imps side, and they just made flotillas more survivable in wave V.

I don't mind the commander flotilla in the corner. If the other guy wants to put his ship there, fine, it's one less ship in the fight. If he could do it before with a VSD or a CR90, then why is it suddenly worse because his new ship only costs 18 points?

If you want to argue Admiral abilities and distances, that's a different, potentially viable topic. But parking a ship far away has been legal since wave I.

This is an example of a biased opinion. Because you're not even willing to entertain the possibility, there's no discussion here because that bias prevents you from seeing the possibility relating to the post directly above this one.

At least you had enough respect for those willing to debate it and not to open with the same insults half the people liking your post did. Thanks for that, at least.

I don't mind them either in regards to game mechanics. I've stated that repeatedly. What irks me is two fold.

1) It's anti-thematic and without Star Wars and their fleet battles, we'd be playing a cheap knock off sci-fi franchise with an even smaller community.

2) Everything else has ranges....everything else has a sphere of influence. Except the Admirals.....there is no logic there.

Are you, an American, making arguments based on the finer points of the English language in a global internet forum?

How the hell does one complain about Biased Opinions while using nothing but their own Biased Opinions? And then use that to insult another poster. This was getting old on page three, now it just looks desperate.

I honestly don't care when someone states an opinion as long as they don't assert their opinion is better than other's and then use that false high ground to assert moral and executive authority over others. The hypocrisy of the last post is beyond crazy.

Sygnetix, how do you feel about me? Do we still have the same passion we had yesterday?

Or do you prefer Beatty?

Why can't we just sail away in our life boats together and live happily ever after?

Are you, an American, making arguments based on the finer points of the English language in a global internet forum?

I'm not making arguments about anything. I'm sorry I know sentence structure and the finer points of debate. I won't apologize for it so why are you even here? Did you not get enough attention yesterday?

How the hell does one complain about Biased Opinions while using nothing but their own Biased Opinions? And then use that to insult another poster. This was getting old on page three, now it just looks desperate.

I honestly don't care when someone states an opinion as long as they don't assert their opinion is better than other's and then use that false high ground to assert moral and executive authority over others. The hypocrisy of the last post is beyond crazy.

Wasn't complaining. I laid the ground work for my response rather than just go straight in to talking about how there wasn't a point debating that part of the post since the opinion was obviously biased. Perhaps if you knew how to more precisely communicate your opinions, you'd struggle less with people who don't tolerate your rudeness. The highlighted part coming from you is precious considering how you entered this thread. I've never stated once that my opinion was superior to yours or anyone's here. I'd explain what this has been about again but if you haven't gotten that through 10 pages of stating it, I hold little hope you will now.

So why bother?

Sygnetix, how do you feel about me? Do we still have the same passion we had yesterday?

Or do you prefer Beatty?

Why can't we just sail away in our life boats together and live happily ever after?

I actually feel sorry for you. It seems you've decided to fashion yourself after this guy and just follow him around trying to incite arguments on the internet. It really is somewhat tragic. That said, I don't have an opinion on any of you, I have an opinion on how some of you present yourselves and treat others, though. I'm also willing to admit this is the internet and the safety and security provided by hiding behind one's monitor can influence common sense and decency....but that concession only goes so far.

Are you, an American, making arguments based on the finer points of the English language in a global internet forum?

I'm not making arguments about anything. I'm sorry I know sentence structure and the finer points of debate. I won't apologize for it so why are you even here? Did you not get enough attention yesterday?

I agree you KNOW the finer points of debate. However that is where it ends. You lack the understanding of application.

Trying to appear smart makes idiots look foolish.

Thanks for calling my opinion biased.

-_______-

You stated that you don't think FFG ever considered that people would use these as vessels for the commander. Given that Cracken COMES packaged with the GR75 and keeps it, along with the Bright Hope title even harder to hit than most other ships, means that No, FFG did intend for some commanders to be on flotillas. Combine that with the fact that FFG has had solid playtesting experience with all their games and I'm sure has seen someone in playtesting try it, and all that leads me to believe that FFG has seen and experienced flotillas on the edges.

Heck, relay 2 out of a Lamda allows and almost wants you to push squadrons from further away than a range ruler. I'll debate your argument on its merits if you can provide some beyond "it's not thematic" but I stand by my statement that FFG considered this idea. The function of FFG is to make good GAMES (it's in their name). It's not their job for you to feel that Dodonna off on the side isn't Star Wars enough.

If you want to talk about why Admirals can affect entire 3x6 board lengths, start that topic, I'll gladly engage you there. But if your problem is with flotillas on the edge of the map, are you not able to kill them? Are you not able to move up to them because they're on the edge? What's stopping you from driving up to his flotillas and hitting them slash his commander?

Are you, an American, making arguments based on the finer points of the English language in a global internet forum?

I'm not making arguments about anything. I'm sorry I know sentence structure and the finer points of debate. I won't apologize for it so why are you even here? Did you not get enough attention yesterday?

I agree you KNOW the finer points of debate. However that is where it ends. You lack the understanding of application.

Trying to appear smart makes idiots look foolish.

And that is what makes your opinion irrelevant. You cannot give it without being insulting. Over what? Strangers on the internet? E-buddies on a forum? I need to stir the pot? Please. And here I thought this thread was slowly returning back to the first few pages.

Nope, the salty kids woke up and got back online again.

I wish the mods were more active

Dude You may not realize this but I am only rude to those who are aggressive and rude first. You started

the arguments, you! If you look at page one people were disagreeing but they were not insulting. But You took their disagreements as insults and You went on the Attack. I came in an already confrontational way because you were already being extremely rude and insulting to everyone who brought in their own opinions that didn't agree with your's. And I pretty much said stop using Opinions as a basis for an argument to change the rules and instead bring the proof! But you 100% ignored that request at every turn.

Now am I being rude to you? Hell yes! You have been nothing but an elitist rude individual to everyone and if you will notice I am being rude to only You! Why do you think that is?

And here was me thinking we were having a pleasant conversation in your imperial squadron counter thread....

I can choose not to be insulting, I see no reason in this thread to be nice to you. I would hope you understand, given that, do unto others as is done to you, was one of your finer points of debate.

My adage is, remember what stupid statements you have made so you dont end up insulting yourself. Guess you havent figured that one out yet. It is accomplished level of debate in fairness.

Thanks for calling my opinion biased.

-_______-

You stated that you don't think FFG ever considered that people would use these as vessels for the commander. Given that Cracken COMES packaged with the GR75 and keeps it, along with the Bright Hope title even harder to hit than most other ships, means that No, FFG did intend for some commanders to be on flotillas. Combine that with the fact that FFG has had solid playtesting experience with all their games and I'm sure has seen someone in playtesting try it, and all that leads me to believe that FFG has seen and experienced flotillas on the edges.

Heck, relay 2 out of a Lamda allows and almost wants you to push squadrons from further away than a range ruler. I'll debate your argument on its merits if you can provide some beyond "it's not thematic" but I stand by my statement that FFG considered this idea. The function of FFG is to make good GAMES (it's in their name). It's not their job for you to feel that Dodonna off on the side isn't Star Wars enough.

If you want to talk about why Admirals can affect entire 3x6 board lengths, start that topic, I'll gladly engage you there. But if your problem is with flotillas on the edge of the map, are you not able to kill them? Are you not able to move up to them because they're on the edge? What's stopping you from driving up to his flotillas and hitting them slash his commander?

Biased ins't an insult but look at that opening statement. "I refuse to believe" is not an opening of a debatable opinion. It's the preface to a lecture on your point of view. You can hardly fault me for calling a biased opinion a biased opinion. Political correctness took a major blow today. I figure that means I can call a spade a spade.

One could argue that FFG was just following it's own marketing template of new vessel = new commander + title(s) for the vessel, but that won't go anywhere. You'll cite proof or evidence and I'll state that you should to. You'll cite the fact they were packaged together, when in reality it would take an internal memo in FFG letter head to prove Cracken was intended to be garrisoned on the GR-75 so let's drop that one and agree it's mutually impossible to prove one way or another.

Putting blind faith in a game designer to catch all the things is a little naive in that if that were the case, no video games would ever launch with bugs or require day 1 launch patches.

The lambda use I've covered fairly thoroughly in this thread where I point out that by using the tactic, you can more effectively use your fighter squadrons from your (gasp) lifeboat flotilla: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/240209-imperial-counter-squadron/

When you choose to take a well established franchise that is high visibility and choose to make that theme the very basis (and selling point) of your game, there is a certain level of accuracy expected. By and large I think they've done an excellent job of capturing what it would be like to "top-down" a fleet battle. The use of ranges, ships, squadrons, and maneuvering are all mechanically outstanding, although clunky in tightly packed spaces where 2 fleets have driven into each other. That said, how is parking an Admiral in an unarmed craft remotely relate-able to not only Star Wars in general but every single other range-based mechanic in the game?

If an Admiral can affect a fleet from a vast distance away, explain why squadron commands are close-mid range unless you bring boosted comms to extend that to close-long range? Does the Admiral jjust so happen to carry a magic radio with him?

If so, how is that even remotely relate-able to Star Wars in general but every single other range-based mechanic in the game?

I don't have a problem specifically with flotillas on the edge of the map. Yes I am able to kill them. However, since the point cost of the Admiral is not effected by the range at which he or she is sitting, it requires a points cost imblance to send an investment that costs 3 or 4 times as much as the transport to go engage it.

In order words, without weakening yourself at the primary battle, there is no counter-play to the tactic and that is the very definition of imbalance.

Perhaps there needs to be a defensive upgrade card that reads something along the lines of:

Long Range Comm Jammer

Prevents Admiral abilities that take place outside of long range from affecting ships.

or

Prevents Admiral abilities from affecting ships within close-medium range of this ship.

Either of those would solve the a fore mentioned points imbalance. Either would provide reliable counter-play.

I wish the mods were more active

Dude You may not realize this but I am only rude to those who are aggressive and rude first. You started

the arguments, you! If you look at page one people were disagreeing but they were not insulting. But You took their disagreements as insults and You went on the Attack. I came in an already confrontational way because you were already being extremely rude and insulting to everyone who brought in their own opinions that didn't agree with your's. And I pretty much said stop using Opinions as a basis for an argument to change the rules and instead bring the proof! But you 100% ignored that request at every turn.

Now am I being rude to you? Hell yes! You have been nothing but an elitist rude individual to everyone and if you will notice I am being rude to only You! Why do you think that is?

And here was me thinking we were having a pleasant conversation in your imperial squadron counter thread....

I can choose not to be insulting, I see no reason in this thread to be nice to you. I would hope you understand, given that, do unto others as is done to you, was one of your finer points of debate.

My adage is, remember what stupid statements you have made so you dont end up insulting yourself. Guess you havent figured that one out yet. It is accomplished level of debate in fairness.

Do you ladies sit in each othes laps or just chase each other around the forums? Seriously, go outside and play, the adults are talking.

You bring up age so often it's starting to make me question how old you actually are...

If we are all ladies, (who apparently dont count as adults), then who is the plural in adults? Even including you as an adult, you are alone.

Wow, the level of ignorance is just astonishing. Are you even hearing anything? Are you so caught up in your bubble that you can't see how hardheaded and immature you're being?

Second person ever to get on my ignore list. Welcome. Now let's hope the FFG moderates will finally step in and give this guy a warning.

Grow up kid!

Beatty, that was your 1337th post. I know you aren't up on that hip lingo, but 1337 is a term for elite among PC gamers (more of a joke now honestly).

That post cemented you into elite status. Thought you should know.

Wow, the day just got so much better. Maybe if everyone just put him on their ignore list we can get back to topics that actually matter.

Wow, the level of ignorance is just astonishing. Are you even hearing anything? Are you so caught up in your bubble that you can't see how hardheaded and immature you're being?

Second person ever to get on my ignore list. Welcome. Now let's hope the FFG moderates will finally step in and give this guy a warning.

Grow up kid!

Forget the warning, just out right ban him. Someone who can't learn from their mistakes is bound to make them again. So I fully anticipate he will explode on the next thread where someone doesn't agree with him, regardless if we comment there or not.

You bring up age so often it's starting to make me question how old you actually are...

36 in 5 days