If the game box isn't meant for storage, the entire world is doing it wrong. Board games have always been packed back into their boxes after use. LCGs shouldn't be any different, apart from the spilling over into other boxes a few expansions later - boxes which the expansions no longer provide. Go7, Basically Wooden and others provide decent solutions to make the most of boxes which weren't designed to hold the components neatly.

The LCG boxes are intrinsically terrible for tidy storage only because FFG cheap out (particularly after the merger). See Paizo's Pathfinder ACG for one of several proper ways to do it - the core has slots for every expansion box.

FFG's boxes have always been awful. Ok, bigger, and so able to store things, but terribly design for storing the actual game it comes with when unpacked. Doesn't matter if you are talking about the miniatures games, the board games or the card games. they are designed for 2 things in mind - holding the game until they get to you, and looking nice on the shelves of the shop. Yes, the new boxes are cheaper and flimsier, but they achieve exactly the same result and are much easier to dismantle for recycling. Note also that lots of games companies have bloody awful boxes for their games, that just leave loads of space for the components to rattle about in and get mixed up and possibly damaged once opened. This isn't unique to FFG.

Now, of course some people (including myself) use the substandard boxes (well... actually quite nice and sturdy, but bloody awful for practically storing the game they hold) for storing the expansions for the games... however, I don't think this is an unfair place for them to skimp on. If it stops them raising the prices, and reduces the number of boxes cluttering up my room I am all for it.

Note that the Pathfinder games are very different. They each have a limited number of expansions, and so they can design the box to fit the whole set from the get go. This game is not like that. It is intended for expansion into the indeterminate future. Do I like games that fit their boxes well? Yes? Do I expect every game to do this? No, it is usually an added luxury.

I've kept one of my LOTR deluxe boxes to hold all of the rule booklets from the others. Everything else has just gone in the recycling. I'm glad they've taken steps to reduce packaging, but there's still a lot of wasted space inside.

That's actually one of the best ideas I've heard and never thought about. I think I'll use my core set box for exactly this purpose. It should come in handy when I have 50 or so pieces of paper after a handful of cycles come out. That way I can keep it on my shelf with the other games, and keep the cards organized in a tidy box. Still gets shelf presence, still has my friends see it and say, "oh, let's play that!", and still looks pretty, without taking up a ton of space.

Boardgames that contain cards rarely have boxes that can be used to store them once you sleeve them (and if those cards need to be shuffled, sleeves are almost required). The only company I've consistently seen providing space for storing sleeved cards is AEG.

Oh, I think AEG's Doomtown box is great (as long as you want to get more than just the core set... as otherwise it is a massive waste of space).

It's not horrible box, its absolutely worst board game box i ever saw. I'm LOTR LCG player and collector and the best way for me to store quests is to put all quests from one cycle to deluxe box expansion. I hoped for the same approach with Arkham LCG, and they made this I'm really disappointed. Not to mentioning the small core box.
I'm 100% FFG fan, i love most of your games. You make top quality products, but this box is really misstep.

PS: if this was intentional and you will release some awesome cool storage solution for reasonable price, i will buy it (then apology accepted)

maybe FFG should release some premium tissues in a nice big deluxe sized box for all of you guys to store your tears.

Just now, iGniGhted said:

maybe FFG should release some premium tissues in a nice big box deluxe sized box for all of you guys to store your tears.

Greate idea

Michael Horvath addressed this in an interview with an AGOT podcast when the Stark box debuted the new packaging. Bottom line, the price point for Deluxe sets has not increased in ten years. They were $30 when Kings of the Sea came out for the newly-minted LCG reboot of AGOT, and they're $30 now. That cannot happen without cost savings somewhere, and another fact is that most people weren't using the Deluxe Set boxes for anything useful. As a card-storage solution their dimensions are terrible. They look great on a shelf but that's about it. So they changed the materials rather than go up to a $35 or even $40 price point. (Shrinking the Core Set box dimensions away from standard board-game size was the only thing that kept those at $40, for that matter.)

I thought the box was a but disappointing in terms of quality. However, even more disappointing was the size of the box for the contents inside! A bit of overkill if you ask me. A waste of cardboard too. As always, the art is amazing but I much would have preferred to have seen it in a smaller box. Oh well! It is what it is I guess.

The only other LGC I've played is Warhammer Invasion, and I kept the core set box plus all of the deluxe exapansion boxes as my storage solutions for that game and it works perfectly. Likewise, for Arkham Horror (the board game), I store it all in the original boxes.

I think I'm going to use an alternative storage for AH LCG though to be honest, or use one of those inserts that fit in the original box. Can anyone vouch for those?

Yes, the boxes used for the LCG expansions have diminished in size and quality over the past few years (remember when LCG core sets were sold in full sized standard game board boxes?). But to be honest, why does that really matter at the end of the day? If you really care about how your cards are being stored, then you owe it to yourself to get some binders and card storage sheets and keep them in there instead anyway. So long as the box safely conveys its contents from the factory to your house, then it has fulfilled the only purpose that it needs to fulfill.

In the same interview where Michael Horvath talked about the new Deluxe packaging, he also cited that shipping full size game boxes mostly full of air was a tremendous unnecessary expense.

On 24/1/2017 at 6:33 PM, Grimwalker said:

Michael Horvath addressed this in an interview with an AGOT podcast when the Stark box debuted the new packaging. Bottom line, the price point for Deluxe sets has not increased in ten years. They were $30 when Kings of the Sea came out for the newly-minted LCG reboot of AGOT, and they're $30 now. That cannot happen without cost savings somewhere, and another fact is that most people weren't using the Deluxe Set boxes for anything useful. As a card-storage solution their dimensions are terrible. They look great on a shelf but that's about it. So they changed the materials rather than go up to a $35 or even $40 price point. (Shrinking the Core Set box dimensions away from standard board-game size was the only thing that kept those at $40, for that matter.)

I've a lot of troubles at believing that former deluxe boxes costed 5 or 10 dollars to the company more than the costs of the actual crap they are using. 1 or 2 dollars? Yes. But 5 to 10 for a different type of cardboard? It's just a non-sense. If this were true, games like Hoax or Journey to Mordor will generate a passive in their budget, considering the price they are sold at.

I'm more of the opinion that under the ANA management they are simply cutting all the costs that are considered "not necessary"

9 hours ago, Julia said:

I've a lot of troubles at believing that former deluxe boxes costed 5 or 10 dollars to the company more than the costs of the actual crap they are using. 1 or 2 dollars? Yes. But 5 to 10 for a different type of cardboard? It's just a non-sense. If this were true, games like Hoax or Journey to Mordor will generate a passive in their budget, considering the price they are sold at.

Just because the customer pays $5-10 more, does not mean FFG getting $5-10 more per unit sold. Also prices for moving physical goods have gone up in recent years, so you save more than the cost of materials with a smaller, lighter box.

And if you want to keep sales prices stable, you have to set sales prices/costs that will still work 5 or 10 years from now...

On 24.01.2017 at 10:49 AM, borithan said:

Oh, I think AEG's Doomtown box is great (as long as you want to get more than just the core set... as otherwise it is a massive waste of space).

If you remove plastic insert you'll fit playset of every card released.

I've found that original A:NR Core Set box is excellent to to store my (nearly completed) WARS TCG set.

4 hours ago, Samea said:

Just because the customer pays $5-10 more, does not mean FFG getting $5-10 more per unit sold. Also prices for moving physical goods have gone up in recent years, so you save more than the cost of materials with a smaller, lighter box.

And if you want to keep sales prices stable, you have to set sales prices/costs that will still work 5 or 10 years from now...

Please follow the logical flow of the conversation instead of replying non-sense

- former poster quoted Michael saying that they had to cut some costs to mantain the same price tag instead of raising it by 5 or 10 dollars a piece
- the only element that changed in the different deluxe products is the quality of the box (we have the same number of cards, rules leaflet and so on)
- this means that Michael implied tha reducing the quality allows the company to spare 5-10 bucks
- I said this is very difficult to believe

This has nothing to do with what you stated: fixed costs (warehouses, distribution, retail increase, and so on) do not depend on the quality of the box, so, saying "we reduced the quality of the box to avoid increasing the price" is just unbelievable when referred to a price range of 5-10 bucks increase: a cardboard box doesn't cost that much, period, so, if they move from 29.99 to 34.99 or to 39.99 to "mantain the box" they are also increasing their margins of earnings.

He wasn't talking about fixed costs, he was talking about the size of the box having impacts on other costs. Smaller, cheaper boxes weigh less, which reduces shipping costs. Plus, even a marginal reduction in volume, when multiplied out over an entire production run can have significant impacts on both shipping and storage. They may well not own warehouses all along their supply route, and will probably be renting space at some locations. This all adds up.

Plus, your post came across in a fairly insulting tone. Just in case you care.

Julia, you're right that they could have increased prices by $1-2 and maintained the status quo. Similar margins, same quality. But as was said, the prices have been consistent for 10 years with margins slimming every day. So the intelligent thing to do is raise it 5 dollars or so, and let that price last 5 years instead of 2. Since there is always an outcry at price increases, suffering that reputation loss is better once than multiple times, even if the multiple times is better for their intelligent customers.

I just came across this weird box in another LOTR LCG thread... Now, I have never ranted before on the internet because it just seems silly to me but as of late I am getting really fed up with all the shit surrounding FFG/Asmodee quality, prices etc. I guess the time has come even for me to get on that level.

I just can't believe how low FFG has fallen. Don't get me wrong, I love FFG. I love their games. They have probably one of the best designers in the market. They really make their games feel authtentic. It is probably not all their fault...The majority of these problems are probably because of the merge with Asmodee. I am no insider or anything, but ever since then the changes that have been made seem stupid. Smaller LCG packs in a plastic container. And now the deluxe expansions in a tuckbox! C'mon, how can you even call them "Deluxe" anymore? It just feels cheap. I feel cheated. I have been supporting FFG for quite a few years now. What irks me most is:

- They claimed that they want to make their games feel premium. This claimed none other than Anton Torres in one of the interviews from GenCon 2015 or 2016. How they want people to not buy 10 games, to rather buy just 1 game that they really enjoy. Yeah right. As I said, e.g. nothing feels premium about a tuckbox. If somebody doesn't believe me you can bet that I will scour Youtube for that video and post it here.

- The prices. Oh again this topic. I am not going to repeat anything here. Let me just that I am paying almost 50% more for LCGs than what I used to pay before (I am not from the US). 50% MORE! So now I have to pay more for worse? My (and probably others' too) funds are limited. I love playing your games FFG and I love to support you but it isn't viable in such an expanse as before.

- Now, wheter you believe me or not about this one. In my country there are several online retailers for board and card games and I happen to know a guy who owns one and he tells me a lot of... let's say interesting things. A few of them are:

• He orders from a retailer (probably well known in Europe) Esdevium games, which is of course now owned by Asmodee Group
• I have been bugging him for a game that I wish to play and he preordered a few of them to have them in stock quite some time ago. Last week he got an email claiming that his order has been straight up cancelled. Probably because he didn't order enought stock to be interesting to Esdevium. This never happened to him before.
• He has to preorder games WAY in advance, WAY before release. This is also something new, they changed policies after being aquired by Asmodee. This type of bussines isn't suited for online retailers like him.

- But the real problem here are probably us - consumers. Because after some time we learn to cope with almost everything. Big shots in Asmodee know this and they are effectively exploiting this. They know we will still buy their games, because they are damn great. But that doesn't keep me from feeling that just something here feels wrong.

I mean, who are we kidding here. The gist of the whole thing is that Asmodee is claiming how everything works best for consumers at the end. But what we are getting doesn't seem better for me. Am I alone here? Lower quality - higher prices. The next thing is probably online only rulebooks.

I am open to further discussion if I do not get banned .

36 minutes ago, Eldainorn said:

I just came across this weird box in another LOTR LCG thread... Now, I have never ranted before on the internet because it just seems silly to me but as of late I am getting really fed up with all the shit surrounding FFG/Asmodee quality, prices etc. I guess the time has come even for me to get on that level.

I just can't believe how low FFG has fallen. Don't get me wrong, I love FFG. I love their games. They have probably one of the best designers in the market. They really make their games feel authtentic. It is probably not all their fault...The majority of these problems are probably because of the merge with Asmodee. I am no insider or anything, but ever since then the changes that have been made seem stupid. Smaller LCG packs in a plastic container. And now the deluxe expansions in a tuckbox! C'mon, how can you even call them "Deluxe" anymore? It just feels cheap. I feel cheated. I have been supporting FFG for quite a few years now. What irks me most is:

- They claimed that they want to make their games feel premium . This claimed none other than Anton Torres in one of the interviews from GenCon 2015 or 2016. How they want people to not buy 10 games, to rather buy just 1 game that they really enjoy . Yeah right. As I said, e.g. nothing feels premium about a tuckbox. If somebody doesn't believe me you can bet that I will scour Youtube for that video and post it here.

I will just point out that the second two bolded quotes are contradicted by the first. The cards inside are the game, they're what matter. The packaging means less than nothing, and if they have to cut materials costs to keep the price down that is JUST DANDY.

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- The prices. Oh again this topic. I am not going to repeat anything here. Let me just that I am paying almost 50% more for LCGs than what I used to pay before (I am not from the US). 50% MORE! So now I have to pay more for worse? My (and probably others' too) funds are limited. I love playing your games FFG and I love to support you but it isn't viable in such an expanse as before.

Sucks to be you. In the US, prices haven't increased in ten years, as I pointed out above. Monthly packs are still $15, Deluxes are $30, Core Sets are $40. To stick to those price points, they've had to cut packaging costs. Don't care, the cards are what matter.

Quote

- Now, wheter you believe me or not about this one. In my country there are several online retailers for board and card games and I happen to know a guy who owns one and he tells me a lot of... let's say interesting things. A few of them are:

• He orders from a retailer distributor (probably well known in Europe) Esdevium games, which is of course now owned by Asmodee Group
• I have been bugging him for a game that I wish to play and he preordered a few of them to have them in stock quite some time ago. Last week he got an email claiming that his order has been straight up cancelled. Probably because he didn't order enought stock to be interesting to Esdevium. This never happened to him before.
• He has to preorder games WAY in advance, WAY before release. This is also something new, they changed policies after being aquired by Asmodee. This type of bussines isn't suited for online retailers like him.

- But the real problem here are probably us - consumers. Because after some time we learn to cope with almost everything. Big shots in Asmodee know this and they are effectively exploiting this. They know we will still buy their games, because they are damn great. But that doesn't keep me from feeling that just something here feels wrong.

I mean, who are we kidding here. The gist of the whole thing is that Asmodee is claiming how everything works best for consumers at the end. But what we are getting doesn't seem better for me. Am I alone here? Lower quality - higher prices. The next thing is probably online only rulebooks.

This is where you tipped your hand and let us know exactly how much weight to give your concerns.

You're a player who lives somewhere in the world (most likely Europe since that's Esdevium's market) where your access to product is online ordering through a third-party seller. This is why your costs are going up and you are having distribution issues.

It's true that Asmodee/FFG in the past year or so have refocused their efforts on brick-&-mortar stores and deprioritized online sales. The reason is because they have done market analysis and have determined that the best way to build a player base for their games is to get people into stores and interacting with other players. To that end, they have reduced their support to a smaller number of online vendors who move enough product to be profitable.

Sorry, Eldainorn: you're simply not their target audience, living wherever it is you live and buying however it is you buy, and so all this bellyaching from you about how bad you're getting screwed is simply just "it sucks to be you." I believe you, but you're also not very representative of the player base. Sorry, but you can't please all of the people all of the time and you can't optimize your sales model in a competitive marketplace to give statistical outliers like yourself everything they want. If it's not profitable to ship tiny orders to mom & pop online retailers, they shouldn't do it. You either need to move to a different city with an actual game shop or start ordering from websites that don't have to charge you extra because they are a burden on the distributor.

1 hour ago, Grimwalker said:

I will just point out that the second two bolded quotes are contradicted by the first. The cards inside are the game, they're what matter. The packaging means less than nothing, and if they have to cut materials costs to keep the price down that is JUST DANDY.

What I ultimately wanted to say is that their products don't feel as "premium" as before. There is a contradiction between what they are saying and what they actually achieve.

1 hour ago, Grimwalker said:

Sucks to be you. In the US, prices haven't increased in ten years, as I pointed out above. Monthly packs are still $15, Deluxes are $30, Core Sets are $40. To stick to those price points, they've had to cut packaging costs. Don't care, the cards are what matter.

Those are FFG's RRP prices. You can get them even cheaper.

1 hour ago, Grimwalker said:

This is where you tipped your hand and let us know exactly how much weight to give your concerns.

You're a player who lives somewhere in the world (most likely Europe since that's Esdevium's market) where your access to product is online ordering through a third-party seller. This is why your costs are going up and you are having distribution issues.

It's true that Asmodee/FFG in the past year or so have refocused their efforts on brick-&-mortar stores and deprioritized online sales. The reason is because they have done market analysis and have determined that the best way to build a player base for their games is to get people into stores and interacting with other players. To that end, they have reduced their support to a smaller number of online vendors who move enough product to be profitable.

Sorry, Eldainorn: you're simply not their target audience, living wherever it is you live and buying however it is you buy, and so all this bellyaching from you about how bad you're getting screwed is simply just "it sucks to be you." I believe you, but you're also not very representative of the player base. Sorry, but you can't please all of the people all of the time and you can't optimize your sales model in a competitive marketplace to give statistical outliers like yourself everything they want. If it's not profitable to ship tiny orders to mom & pop online retailers, they shouldn't do it. You either need to move to a different city with an actual game shop or start ordering from websites that don't have to charge you extra because they are a burden on the distributor.

No, we also have some brick & mortar stores, don't worry, and it affected them also. And yes, it is true that we are not the biggest market. The costs are going up not only in my country but in other European countries as well. Believe that I am not the only one.

Distributors - thank you for your correction. I agree with you on that if it is not profitable to ship tiny orders that they shouldn't do it. What they should not be doing is taking preorders and promising that they will ship the goods and then when the goods should be ready to ship they just outright cancel the order without giving any reason. That is unprofessional. They should just say that they do not want to do bussines with tiny retailers anymore and that's that. On the other hand, the retailer gets screwed up and then also the players. And as you pointed out they unfortunately don't care.

And please, you cannot be serious about moving just because of a game?

1 hour ago, Grimwalker said:

Sucks to be you. In the US, prices haven't increased in ten years, as I pointed out above. Monthly packs are still $15, Deluxes are $30, Core Sets are $40. To stick to those price points, they've had to cut packaging costs. Don't care, the cards are what matter.

That's not exactly true. I used to be able to buy DE at 20$ and chapters at 10$ or less. Now that's impossible. Yes, the MSRP has not increased over the past years, but the discounts appliable for mass buying has diminished (which should imply that they are either gaining more money or online retailers are). Either way, players are paying more for the same product.

But aside from what you would describe as "it sucks to be you for not having a retail shop near you, but for me it's fine"; let me remind you that they did not only reduce the quality of the box, they have also reduced the number of cards in this past ten years. You know, that part of the game that matters!

All CoC, AGoT 1.0 and LotR DEs had 165 cards per product in cardboard boxes, while their most recent counterparts (AGoT 2.0 and AH:LCG) only have 156 per product and come with a flimsy box .

I'm not sure if other products have had a similar change (I know that Invasion had also 165 per DE, but I'm not familiar with Conquest, SW or Netrunner).

So, if you want to live in Happyland and think that everything is Just Dandy, be my guest, but I know when I'm being fooled.

Yes, 'Delux' is really a misnomer now :((

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5 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

Sucks to be you. In the US, prices haven't increased in ten years, as I pointed out above. Monthly packs are still $15, Deluxes are $30, Core Sets are $40. To stick to those price points, they've had to cut packaging costs. Don't care, the cards are what matter.

That's not exactly true. I used to be able to buy DE at 20$ and chapters at 10$ or less. Now that's impossible. Yes, the MSRP has not increased over the past years, but the discounts appliable for mass buying has diminished (which should imply that they are either gaining more money or online retailers are). Either way, players are paying more for the same product.

And the variance in price, where some places and some sites were able to offer deep discounts not available to others, is one more reason that FFG/Asmodee decided to change their policy regarding online stores. Me, I always pay MSRP on newly released product because I want to support my FLGS.

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And please, you cannot be serious about moving just because of a game?

If it's not that important to you then accept that you have control of your own priorities.

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But aside from what you would describe as "it sucks to be you for not having a retail shop near you, but for me it's fine"; let me remind you that they did not only reduce the quality of the box, they have also reduced the number of cards in this past ten years. You know, that part of the game that matters!

All CoC, AGoT 1.0 and LotR DEs had 165 cards per product in cardboard boxes, while their most recent counterparts (AGoT 2.0 and AH:LCG) only have 156 per product and come with a flimsy box

Of course I'd rather have 165 cards. You're missing the point: I would rather have 156 cards in a flimsy box that's not worth keeping than 135 cards in a box that costs more, eating into the budget for what's inside the box. That is what would get me to take to the interwebs and start bitching about being ripped off.

They've committed to staying at $30 MSRP. I don't know how I feel about it, but if they went up to $35 or $40 sales would necessarily decrease overall, if you deny that you're simply ignorant of economics. I'm willing to accept that it's a priority keep the product affordable by as many people as possible because that's how the game grows and thrives.

Within that $30 price point, in a world where costs rise over time, does it make more sense to spend as little on packaging and as much on product as possible, and only reduce the card count once you've cut packaging as far as it can go? Packaging has been cut to the bone. Sure, they used to have 165 cards, but that was years ago.

For god's sake, you're bellyaching about the box the cards come in and you haven't thought it through, and you're just proudly waving around your ignorance. The box is not the game. I keep my cards in these and the packaging goes straight into the trash, always have done.

3 minutes ago, Grimwalker said:

Within that $30 price point, in a world where costs rise over time, does it make more sense to spend as little on packaging and as much on product as possible, and only reduce the card count once you've cut packaging as far as it can go? Packaging has been cut to the bone. Sure, they used to have 165 cards, but that was years ago.

Years ago? Grey Havens that came last year still had 165 cards in it. The Sands of Harad is the first one for LotR that comes with 156 cards.

3 minutes ago, Grimwalker said:

For god's sake, you're bellyaching about the box the cards come in and you haven't thought it through, and you're just proudly waving around your ignorance. The box is not the game. I keep my cards in these and the packaging goes straight into the trash, always have done.

Well, that's your preference. You don't mind having to pay extra money for a plain storage solution while others prefer to save that money by using the box that the game comes with. By that same logic, they should just save money by not printing the campaign rules and require people to download them online instead (which by the way, would make the standalone rules playable). You see the game as only the cards, but others see the game as the whole product, box included.

I just refuse to think that they couldn't have designed a more fiiting cardboard box that would have let them save money while still providing a storage solution for the cards and their cycles. It's not as if they wouldn't know how many cards were going to be required to fit in advance, and their boxes (the new and the old ones) don't seem optimized at all. They are full of air and are not that visible (more the flimsy ones, that are easily damaged and kept hidden). I'm sure that moving some of their measures could have allow for a better exposure while keeping the shipping costs the same.

But like you say, it sucks for everyone not for you, so why do you care about what others complain about?

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Years ago? Grey Havens that came last year still had 165 cards in it.

The pattern was set years ago. You think it doesn't make sense that when they sat down to reevaluate the margins on Deluxe sets that that would be when they adjusted both packaging and contents?

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You don't mind having to pay extra money for a plain storage solution while others prefer to save that money by using the box that the game comes with.

I pay a couple of bucks at my FLGS for a storage solution that is vastly superior to any box the game has *ever* come with. I am seriously baffled how *anyone* kept cards organized in those Deluxe boxes. They're terrible for card storage, especially as compared to the other options on the market. You yourself acknowledged that the boxes are not optimized, so what are you so upset about? Losing something that was no good to begin with? The mind boggles.

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I just refuse to think

The hallmark of a delusion if there ever was one.

The dimensions of the game boxes are determined by standard cardboard box sizes, i.e. how many units per case, and it's much more economical for them to invest in standard dimensions rather than sui generis solutions for every product.

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why do you care about what others complain about?

Because when people complain for ignorant and invalid reasons, it's poisonous to the community. It sows the earth with salt, because A) nothing will change and B) the negativity remains. You're talking out of your ass, refusing to accept anything other than your blue-sky imaginings that cost, displayability, dimensions, contents, and reusability can all live happily ever after. You know nothing about their production process or costs and yet you make armchair pronouncements about what they should be doing. It's utterly delusional.