"'Is a man not entitled to the use the Force as he sees fit? "No" says the Jedi on Coruscant, "It must be used for the common good."... "No," says the Sith in the shadows, "it must be used to dominate."... "No" says the Witch on Dathomir, "Pathetic men should not touch the Force." I... rejected those answers, instead, I chose something different. I chose...the Imperial Knights."

As much as I loved the Legacy comic series, the Imperial Knights were basically just repeating the mistakes of the Jedi Order of the pre-Imperial Republic without any of their redeeming features, such as attempting to be a force for good. The Jedi of the prequel era forgot that they were supposed to serve the Force, not use it as a tool to serve the Republic, and in the end that distancing of themselves to the Force blinded them to their own shortcomings as well as the growing power of the Dark side. The Imperial Knights did precisely that; they bound themselves to the service of the Empire, using the Force to further its interests with unquestioning obedience rather than listening to the will of the Force.

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned the morality system is a huge weak spot in F&D. It just doesn't really capture a spectrum of morality, every single character heads toward 100 or 0 inevitably, and hanging out in the middle really has no point to it.

Honestly, while I feel the morality system needed a bit more meat on the bone, including harsher penalties for murder and torture as well as rules for morality-boosting acts of atonement, the inevitability of descent into darkness if you mess around with the Dark Side or act like a bastard is extremely appropriate. The Dark Side is like any other highly infectious disease, save that it afflicts the spirit as well as the body; if you fail to resist it, or worse yet court it like a Grey or Black practicioner, it will overtake you. Madness and violent death almost universally follows, it just takes longer to poison a Grey Force User than a more full blown devotee of the Dark Side.

And sure, your players could exploit the current system by alternating manically between saintly acts one session and barbarity the next, but it'd be their loss if they did that. Munchkinism only thrives when it is tolerated, if they act like tools and claim that the orphanage they built makes up for those orphans they made on their murder spree, just crash their morality into the gutter where it belongs, or better yet tell them to come back when they can act like an adult.

To be clear, I mostly like what you're saying in this post, but I feel that the morality system would have to be much more complex than is reasonable or enjoyable to track to "properly" represent the more nuanced effects of moral choices.

I had a simple-ish idea I've been toying with to add *some* depth without adding pages of morality accountant work to my games. If I felt a player did something extraordinarily heinous (not going to lock myself into examples here as I haven't actually tested any thresholds for this idea, but for ballpark examples; torture for a "good" purpose might "only" dump a bucketfull of conflict on the torturer, while a premeditated murder, war crime, torture for pleasure, etc, would always qualify), I would award a rank in a "talent" of sorts, with a name like "stain upon the soul" that did nothing except possess the conflict talent marker, representing the ongoing unresolved spiritual burden on their soul. Expunging one or more ranks from that "talent" would require an exceptional act of atonement, and of course only honourable Jedi and the like would be likely to ever acknowledge such an act.

And I mean big Light Side acts, whole quests of atonement; deeds of the "roll 2d10 and pick the higher for morality this session" variety.

I was mostly just having fun. Though honestly, 'listening to the will of the Force' is so vague that you can justify doing just about whatever you want to do with it. I'd agree that one can't be an ascetic monastic order while also being closely aligned with a government, but the Knights never seem to make that first claim. They don't exist to serve the Force, they're a group of Force Sensitives that support the Empire, and want to use their natural talents to do so.

I also got the impression that they didn't recruit children (though I think they did pick up a refugee Padawan in order to save her from the Sith.) One of the things that always grated on me about both the Jedi AND the Sith was how they both were essentially cults that recruited children from birth and brainwashed them into wanting whatever fit the goals of that particular Order. I like the Knights for the notion that it was something to be joined once you were an adult making your own decisions in life, instead of something you were forced into at birth.

And to be fair the imperial knights did have a favour towards the light; the leader of their order is executed if he is thought to be fallen, thus kind of contains it's own self control.Ish

The Jedi Order's "dumb" rules always made a kind of sense to me. They took things that while not always, but often led to a large risk of dark side draw (attachment being the big one, either to people or things) and rather than try a long lecture and course saying these things can be bad unless you are special and strong and careful, they decided "we will not do these things" to just avoid that risk entirely.

Could you do some of them safely without it necessarily leading to the dark side? Absolutely, but the risk was high enough and the consequences dire enough to just say no to the whole thing.

Rather than play Russian Roulette with each new Jedi, they just told them not to touch that gun.

12 hours ago, Rossbert said:

Rather than play Russian Roulette with each new Jedi, they just told them not to touch that gun.

I think they did a lot more harm than good. After all, the best way to be safe with a gun is to understand gun safety.

Not to mention that you're talking about things basic to humanity like...well, love. Telling people not to love is not only stupid, but immoral. And it's something that the OT goes out of its way to emphasize, given that it's the power of the love between Luke and his father that saves the galaxy.

Did you just not listening, I said fear is the enemy …So conceal not feel … man you are terrible parents …

SCNR ;-)

1 hour ago, Benjan Meruna said:

I think they did a lot more harm than good. After all, the best way to be safe with a gun is to understand gun safety.

Not to mention that you're talking about things basic to humanity like...well, love. Telling people not to love is not only stupid, but immoral. And it's something that the OT goes out of its way to emphasize, given that it's the power of the love between Luke and his father that saves the galaxy.

I'm not saying you might not be right but there is some nuance.

It is quite a feat to tell someone "Go ahead, form attachments and love, but don't get jealous, possessive or angry." That could easily add extra layers of fear and guilt as you feel you are failing to live up to the rules, which may then turn to anger at the dumb rules and what do they know anyway...and before you know it you are a willingly channeling that cauldron of pain into a fall.

Which now that I think of it is the plot of the prequels, and goes a long way to explaining why they prefer to train before people know what they might be trading for a life of space magic and insight to the universe.

It sounds harsh, but it is on par with many religous orders designed to forsake certain distractions for greater insight. They are the priests of the force, standing apart from normal life to safeguard and guide it. The guards who stand outside the party for he betterment of those in it, so to speak.

That said, from a 21st century American standpoint it can sound brutally tyrannical.

2 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:

I think they did a lot more harm than good. After all, the best way to be safe with a gun is to understand gun safety.

Not to mention that you're talking about things basic to humanity like...well, love. Telling people not to love is not only stupid, but immoral. And it's something that the OT goes out of its way to emphasize, given that it's the power of the love between Luke and his father that saves the galaxy.

This is often confused but the Jedi never trained not to love. They were trained not to form attachments. If you watch how relationships developed and how they interacted it is clear that they felt emotions. That they felt love. What they forbad was becoming attached. They forbad being ruled by their emotions. This is a feat that is much easier to acheive when you train people from a young age. While it may seem horrible from our current view point I might point out that the process they engaged in isn't all that different from social institutions that we currently have now.

It's also worth pointing out being a Jedi is a choice. No one is forced to do it. No one was forced to give up their children. And when the children get older they are not forced to remain in the Order itself. Everyone who is a Jedi is there by choice. But instead of being raised by their family they are raised by the Order. This is really no different than people who grow up to do what their parents do. No different than people who grow up in the same town and end up doing something similar to what their folks did. No different than kids who grow up in the military, attending military schools, who go on to join the military.

What the Jedi did wasn't all that bad all things considered. No one was made to do anything.

6 minutes ago, Kael said:

This is often confused but the Jedi never trained not to love. They were trained not to form attachments. If you watch how relationships developed and how they interacted it is clear that they felt emotions. That they felt love. What they forbad was becoming attached. They forbad being ruled by their emotions. This is a feat that is much easier to acheive when you train people from a young age. While it may seem horrible from our current view point I might point out that the process they engaged in isn't all that different from social institutions that we currently have now.

Tomato, tomato. To love something is to become attached to it. Yes, the Jedi did it all the time: Most Masters were quite attached to their padawans, and vice versa. That's because the alternative is called 'being a bloody sociopath.' The problem was the Jedi Order's refusal to admit this and teach people how to live with attachments instead.

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It's also worth pointing out being a Jedi is a choice. No one is forced to do it. No one was forced to give up their children. And when the children get older they are not forced to remain in the Order itself. Everyone who is a Jedi is there by choice. But instead of being raised by their family they are raised by the Order. This is really no different than people who grow up to do what their parents do. No different than people who grow up in the same town and end up doing something similar to what their folks did. No different than kids who grow up in the military, attending military schools, who go on to join the military.

What the Jedi did wasn't all that bad all things considered. No one was made to do anything.

I'm going to call BS on this one. "Hey, want to give up your child into a very prestigious guild of altruists where they'll have every need provided for and never go hungry?" It's a tempting offer for a lot of families. And if that's not enough to convince them to give up their child, then they hear "Oh, that's fine. Your choice. Just keep in mind that they have dangerous mystical powers that could destroy you, them, and everyone around them. Just saying. What? Train them without permanently separating them from a warm and loving family? That's just silly talk. But you can keep them...if you want."

And of course, there's also t he fact that there's several thousands of years of tradition and superstition built up. Going against all of that...it's basically conscription. Sure, you have a choice. You can go along with the system, or you can try to buck it. Most people opt for the former.

The choice granted to the Jedi kids is a laugh, too. "Well, little Timmy, now that you're a teenage who's been here as long as he can remember and knows nothing else but this Temple and everyone here is basically your surrogate family now...would you like to leave, and turn your back on everything you've ever known up to this point?" Technically it's a choice, sure...but it's pretty loaded in favor of the Jedi.

Now,compare that to a military brat. They're raised in a base environment, but they're with their family, and they're not held apart from the outside world. They're free to make their own choices, and a great deal of them do in fact end up choosing differently. partially, this is because they don't have to leave behind their family, because their family doesn't hold themselves apart from society.

Someone who was socially coerced from their parents at birth to serve as a mystic monk police didn't choose to make a sacrifice. They were just...shoved into it. It's no wonder so many Jedi went darkside, while the Knights had a near-perfect track record (They lost all of 2 people in as many generations, I believe, and this in a galaxy full of war and Sith).

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Tomato, tomato. To love something is to become attached to it.

This is a somewhat limited view on emotions. You can actually feel something and not become attached. And there are plenty of religious traditions that in fact teach this very concept.

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I'm going to call BS on this one.

You can do that, but I'm going to point out that we aren't shown in a canon fashion how their recruitment actually works. So your scenario, for all we know, is just made up in a fashion that helps to illustrate your point but has no real bearing on what the Jedi Order actually did. The closest we have to a canon source on it is when Bane was kidnapping kids for Palpaptine and they seemed to interact in a way that indicated that they didn't force the issue. Also being as how they were perfectly willing to send Anakin away for being too old it seems unlikely they would engage in the tactic you suggest. Obviously, the Jedi Order believes that there is no harm in a Force sensitive not being trained since they were perfectly willing to pass on one who was strong in the Force.

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And of course, there's also t he fact that there's several thousands of years of tradition and superstition built up. Going against all of that...it's basically conscription. Sure, you have a choice. You can go along with the system, or you can try to buck it. Most people opt for the former.

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We've been presented with no evidence this was the case though. Everything we've seen suggest that the Jedi were perfectly fine with people doing their own thing too in regards to the Force. We are given no evidence of conscription.

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The choice granted to the Jedi kids is a laugh, too. "Well, little Timmy, now that you're a teenage who's been here as long as he can remember and knows nothing else but this Temple and everyone here is basically your surrogate family now...would you like to leave, and turn your back on everything you've ever known up to this point?" Technically it's a choice, sure...but it's pretty loaded in favor of the Jedi.

No more loaded than any other major life choice we might make. You're treating this as if it were some kind of aberration when it's really not. Do you leave the religion you were born and raised into or do you stay? That choice will be made in relation to the relationships you forged with your family and the surrogate family of your faith. Do you stay in the city you grew up in or do you go off to college in New York? Do you move from Atlanta to LA for a job? All of these choices are influenced by the same factors that would influence someone opting to leave the Order.

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Now,compare that to a

military brat. They're raised in a base environment, but they're with their family, and they're not held apart from the outside world. They're free to make their own choices, and a great deal of them do in fact end up choosing differently. partially, this is because they don't have to leave behind their family, because their family doesn't hold themselves apart from society.

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There is no real difference between the family you create and the family you are born with. Nor are the Jedi held apart from the outside world. They are free to make their own choices. They are free to choose differently. Leaving behind their family, the Jedi is there family. You're treating the biological family as if it were sacred and it's not. What about adopted kids? Or people whose family sucks? The Jedi Order is a family and it is just as valid of a family life as if the kid grew up with his biological family. The biological family that the kid was born into doesn't mean that the childs life is going to be better. Nor does it promise more choices. You are making a lot of assumptions about family life that simply aren't true.

People in everyday life here and now with their biological family are often presented with a set of choices just as limiting as what you accuse the Jedi Order of. They live their lives according to the faith they were raised in. They stay in the same area's, towns, and cities that their family are in. They go into similar jobs. They hold themselves apart from the outside world. There is a real divide in America alone between people who live in rural America compared to urban America that can be described in terms of being apart from the outside world. The same would apply to religious people. People in certian social classes.

This is all part and partial of any form of socialization. If you grow up in any group you are going to find it hard to leave. Your choices will be made based on the values that the group instills upon you. The only real difference between the Jedi and biological family is that it's easier to see the mechanism of socialization at play.

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Someone who was socially coerced from their parents at birth to serve as a mystic monk police didn't choose to make a sacrifice. They were just...shoved into it. It's no wonder so many Jedi went darkside, while the Knights had a near-perfect track record (They lost all of 2 people in as many generations, I believe, and this in a galaxy full of war and Sith).

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Except we have been presented with 0 evidence that coercion took place. None that they were shoved into it. Hell Ashoka and Dooku show that it was possible to leave on ones own accord and that no one was forced to remain. Also all things considered there weren't that many darksiders. Best we can tell the Jedi didn't deal with fallen Jedi all that often.

As for the Imperial Knights ...... they were around for 100 or so years. Of course they only had a small number of fallen. It's easy for a younger organization to acheive a near perfect track record. There is no way to compare them to the Jedi in that regard since the Jedi Order existed for several thoushand years. There is no room for comparision.

5 hours ago, Kael said:

It's also worth pointing out being a Jedi is a choice. No one is forced to do it. No one was forced to give up their children. And when the children get older they are not forced to remain in the Order itself. Everyone who is a Jedi is there by choice. But instead of being raised by their family they are raised by the Order.

Compare this to “Stockholm Syndrome” and religious cults/organization that raise children to be their next generation of warriors. The latter has been going on for thousands and thousands of years, and a wide variety of psychopaths have been trying to perfect the formula over the years.

I’m not saying that the Jedi Order was evil, but they certainly did some things that I find to be highly questionable, even with the best of intent. IMO, these things were specifically chosen by the writers to help show how the Jedi Order had lost their way over the Millenia.

Just now, bradknowles said:

Compare this to “Stockholm Syndrome” and religious cults/organization that raise children to be their next generation of warriors. The latter has been going on for thousands and thousands of years, and a wide variety of psychopaths have been trying to perfect the formula over the years.

I’m not saying that the Jedi Order was evil, but they certainly did some things that I find to be highly questionable, even with the best of intent. IMO, these things were specifically chosen by the writers to help show how the Jedi Order had lost their way over the Millenia.

Except .... again ... we are given no real evidence that it is Stockholm Syndrome. And the pattern you describe is fairly common in social institutions in general. You don't have to be a member of a religious cult to not want to leave it. The majority of America is Christian by choice, raised that way from birth. People choose all the time to remain in the social groups that raised and guided them. It's fairly natural thing to do.

Why is anyone all that surprised that people choose to be Jedi when we live in a world where people choose to remain in the towns and cities they grew up in, the faiths that they were raised in, the social groups that they were raised around, the class groups that they were raised around, and even the racial groups they were raised around. This is a lot more common behavior than you guys seem to want to give credit for. You are treating the Jedi Order as if it were a singular exception when it is ..... normal social behavior.

We are social creatures. We have a tendency to stay in the groups that raised us.

You are assigning a more insidious meaning to the Jedi Order than what we are presented with in the source material.

5 hours ago, Kael said:

As for the Imperial Knights ...... they were around for 100 or so years. Of course they only had a small number of fallen. It's easy for a younger organization to acheive a near perfect track record. There is no way to compare them to the Jedi in that regard since the Jedi Order existed for several thoushand years. There is no room for comparision.

More importantly even, we compare the jedi order with over 30, 000 jedi knights to a rather small organisation. Now the imperial knights were certainly better suited for war as the jedi order was never meant to be any army for the republic. and indeed did not deal well with it.

I suppose I would also point out the parallels to Buddhism, and its teachings about how desire is the root of all suffering. About the ascent into loving-kindness that is directed towards all life. The Jedi are a lot like the Buddhist monastics (or the christians o suppose)

Kylo Ren is gray, and does a better job of it than Qui-Gon. He's not Sith, Snoke is unconfirmed as being Sith which at best makes him simply a dark side force user. Sith is a belief system as well as a title and race. Qui-Gon never considered using the dark side to accomplish his goals, he merely acted outside the accepted parameters of the Jedi order. Qui-Gon therefore never skirted the dark side, consistently used light side abilities, and otherwise maintained his Jedi composure although loosely.

Kylo however was 'resisting the pull to the light.' He used dark side abilities but did so seemingly reluctantly at times, he constantly had to 'try' to be dark. He did walk that line.

In a similar way, one other that I can think of did this: Revan. As we saw in Drew Karpyshyn's novel Revan refused to be a member of the Jedi, continued to use dark side powers, and refused the Sith. He very much straddled the lines of light and dark.

I think Kylo well and truly fell to the Dark Side when he killed/murdered/sacrificed the kids and then his family member

Just now, ASCI Blue said:

Kylo Ren is gray, and does a better job of it than Qui-Gon. He's not Sith, Snoke is unconfirmed as being Sith which at best makes him simply a dark side force user. Sith is a belief system as well as a title and race. Qui-Gon never considered using the dark side to accomplish his goals, he merely acted outside the accepted parameters of the Jedi order. Qui-Gon therefore never skirted the dark side, consistently used light side abilities, and otherwise maintained his Jedi composure although loosely.

Kylo however was 'resisting the pull to the light.' He used dark side abilities but did so seemingly reluctantly at times, he constantly had to 'try' to be dark. He did walk that line.

In a similar way, one other that I can think of did this: Revan. As we saw in Drew Karpyshyn's novel Revan refused to be a member of the Jedi, continued to use dark side powers, and refused the Sith. He very much straddled the lines of light and dark.

Kylo Ren is in no way grey. He signed on to destroy planets. We see him do nothing good. He used the Force to torture people. He killed his own father to prove his loyalty to Snoke. He is 100% darksider. His use of darkside abilities confirms him as a darksider.

Revan on the otherhand is not only a Mary Sue but a perfect example of a character type that wanted to use the darkside without the penalties. His entire story arc is just one long "I shouldn't have to pay for being evil". He highlights why the whole grey Jedi thing is just a load of BS aimed at trying to use the darkside without dealing with the consequences.

Yeah, Kylo ren certainly is not grey, he is the classic useless darksider. We know that type from the prequels, unfortunately that was an accident in the prequels and they thought it was intentional and re-created that type intentionally for the sequels.

You know, I think the issue with Kylo Ben is that his father was Han Solo, his mother Princess Leia, and yet he came out with a face like that...

Please don't hate me.

In regards to Pre-Imperial Jedi Order, I think its pretty obvious that by teaching people to avoid their emotions and attachments rather than how to deal with them they created emotionally stunted individuals who were incapable of facing their issues. Anakin was the poster boy of this but you see this mindfracked state in pretty much all the Jedi in that period.

The Imperial Knights recruited adults who had already learned to deal with real life issues, who rather than hide from their problems and deny them they instead face them, and who rigorously policed their membership. It also appears that Obi-Wan and Yoda had also realised this as they waited until Luke was an adult before commencing his training, and Yoda sent Luke into the cave to face his inner demons.

I think Yoda and Obi-Wan were pretty much trying out experimental new training techniques on Luke, trying to fix the problems they had found with the old ways, as I get the feeling they themselves did not know how Luke's training would go despite having taught many before.

THE REAL FATHER WAS DARTH PLAGUS ALL ALONG, WHO KNEW?!

Yeah, Kylo Ren is the immature evil; he's immersed in the darkside but has yet to properly manage his hate like a true darksider. Thus his inability to control his emotions and his conflicted nature.

Based off the statement of grey being those who are between light and dark, Kylo is more grey than nearly everyone else listed. He doesn't follow the 'good' of the Jedi, he doesn't follow the 'evil' of the Sith. Most of the thread dictates the extremes with an overall good leaning, Grey should be more neutral if what everyone says is true. Kylo Ren avoids harming Rey for example almost to an extreme. Sure he axed Han, but we all know that Harrison Ford's contract was signed because he was going to die. However we could viably argue that Kylo's attachment to his mother was the cause of his dislike for Han. Notice that during the movie no negative comments were made about Leia ever. Take a true neutral character from D&D, based off what one of the rule books had said a true neutral character might join a fight of humans versus gnolls on the human side (good), however if the humans start winning will switch sides to help the gnolls (evil).

Revan being a Mary Sue is false, if you submit him to the Mary Sue test. If you want to use this as a baseline most Jedi are Mary Sues. Revan eventually decides to return to the Sith empire to attempt to stop it, which he arguably did the first time as well based off what Kreia/Darth Traya had said. Because he has real feels and did this for the benefit of all he can't be a mary sue, there's also the whole baby thing during the novel.

39 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:

He doesn't follow the 'good' of the Jedi, he doesn't follow the 'evil' of the Sith.

Uh... He literally talks to the helmet of his dead Sith grandfather for guidance and help in rejecting the Light. And murdering your father as he begs you to come home is pretty darn darkside. "Grey" does not mean "has good in him," by that "definition" Darth Vader was grey.

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In regards to Pre-Imperial Jedi Order, I think its pretty obvious that by teaching people to avoid their emotions and attachments rather than how to deal with them they created emotionally stunted individuals who were incapable of facing their issues. Anakin was the poster boy of this but you see this mindfracked state in pretty much all the Jedi in that period.

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Actually, all things considered, it doesn't really create emotionally stunted individuals. Their philosophy works fine if you're raised from birth with it. The problem with Anakin was that he had already learned to develop attachments. It's why he should have been rejected. He was past the point where he could adopt the Jedi way of life. Most of the Jedi we see are pretty well-adjusted people, emotionally speaking.

The Jedi Order itself had few problems all things considered over its long history.

If Anakin had been raised from childhood as a Jedi there would have been no problems.

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The Imperial Knights recruited adults who had already learned to deal with real life issues, who rather than hide from their problems and deny them they instead face them, and who rigorously policed their membership. It also appears that Obi-Wan and Yoda had also realised this as they waited until Luke was an adult before commencing his training, and Yoda sent Luke into the cave to face his inner demons.

2

We have no proof that the Imperial Knight's method was better. We know it worked for them, but all things considered they had a different set of goals. However, there is little to no evidence to support your conclusion. What we do know is that for over several thousands years the Jedi method worked all to well. If the Imperial Knights lasted for as long as the Jedi Order then we can conclude that their teaching methods were superior. But for all we know over the same time span it might have caused as much if not more problems than the Jedi's.

The Imperial Knights are too young of an organization to use to criticize the Jedi methods on emotions.

Your conclusions on Luke are also just flat out wrong. Yoda had to be talked into training Luke. He seemed to agree to train him out of desperation. We are given no indication that Obi Wan intended to ever train Luke. If the events of the movies had never occurred based on Obi Wan's comments about Uncle Owen it is likely that Luke would have never been trained as a Jedi.

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I think Yoda and Obi-Wan were pretty much trying out experimental new training techniques on Luke, trying to fix the problems they had found with the old ways, as I get the feeling they themselves did not know how Luke's training would go despite having taught many before.

Unlikely. Obi Wan did not seek out Luke to train him until things started in Ep IV. Yoda had no interest in training Luke. His training seemed to be out of desperation than any new insights into Jedi training. I don't think Obi Wan or Yoda had any new insights. Uncle Owen stopped Obi Wan from training Luke so for all we know Obi Wan would have started at a younger age.

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Based off the statement of grey being those who are between light and dark, Kylo is more grey than nearly everyone else listed. He doesn't follow the 'good' of the Jedi, he doesn't follow the 'evil' of the Sith. Most of the thread dictates the extremes with an overall good leaning, Grey should be more neutral if what everyone says is true.

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No one is talking or dictating in extremes. Also Kylo is a darksider. Your evidence for him not being a darksider is based on the most flimsy and superficial of evidence. He spared Ren because he needed info.

You're entire argument highlights why this whole grey Jedi thing is stupid and ridiculous.

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Revan being a Mary Sue is false, if you submit him to the Mary Sue test. If you want to use this as a baseline most Jedi are Mary Sues. Revan eventually decides to return to the Sith empire to attempt to stop it, which he arguably did the first time as well based off what Kreia/Darth Traya had said. Because he has real feels and did this for the benefit of all he can't be a mary sue, there's also the whole baby thing during the novel.

Yeah ....just no. Revan is a god awful character that shouldn't be used as an example of anything other than how to poorly tell a story.