Okay, so as the title implies, the strategy question for the week centers on one of the most unique aspects of AGoT:

When you design a deck, what is the plot deck for?

Some plots are all about maintaining balance (resets, etc.). Some are about control (character kneel, opponent penalties, etc.). Other plots are more about resources than anything else. Some are about maximizing your own deck potential (search, extra challenges, bonuses, etc.). Some could serve a couple of functions.

So what kind of plots and/or plot effects do you gravitate toward? Do you try to balance your plot options, or do they tend to fill the same basic in-game needs?

Do you build your plot deck before, after or in parallel with your draw deck?

ktom said:

I build my plot deck afterwards, and I'm betting that's the norm. Of course, I often consider plots when building the deck. (For example, Threat from the East makes lots of borderline-competitive Targ builds more competitive.) If plot cards were more interactive with the rest of the deck, I could see this changing. Right now the plots that tend to affect the board positions/players the most are used primarily to target the opponent.

On a general note, I personally tend to run cards that control board position/opponent's position, such as blockade, valar, kneel effects, Rule by Decree. I'm sure this is because I prefer control builds. There's also something to be said for playing at least one 2-claim plot (and ideally two or three 2-claim plots). Given the generally lower access to gold in the LCG environment, the Fury plots are almost always indispensable, especially when high initiative is needed on occasion to go first (for Lost Oasis, Bay of Ice, etc. or just to ensure you get your challenges off the way you want them).

As more cards are printed though, I'm finding that I have a lot more flexibility in the plots I run. For example, out of Targ, Rule by Decree used to be a no brainer...lack of in-house draw and some ambush made it a relatively strong card. As Targ's draw has improved (and more plots are printed), I've found RBD to be less useful, though still strong in certain builds. Similarly, Song of Summer is a lot less auto-include than it used to be, and I instead find myself looking for reasons to justfy running the shadow plots, which have extremely low gold and initiative. In the future, I'm hoping that more interactive plots like the city plots are printed. It would also be nice if initiative played a larger role in this game...so maybe plots that rewarded people who played first or gave them bonuses? (How about something with low initiative that had text stating "You gain +X STR during the first challenge you initiate, where X = your total initiative.")

Once again. that really depends on the House and the build. When playing Lannister, I choose solely on the basis of what the plot does, because I always have enough income without my plot deck.. If I'm running other houses, alot of times it depends on my gold curve. On a side note, I was really hoping to see Taxation or a similar 2 limited card plot printed in PotS.

I normally pick a card, combo, or theme and build my deck from there. If the card or theme is a plot(Military Battle, City, Others, Blockade, etc.), I will start with my plot deck. IF my theme is in my draw deck(Stark intrigue, Lanni infamy, Martell rush, etc) my plot deck will serve to facilitate my draw deck.

Normally I try to have at least 1 reset of the area I'm weakest in controlling(hand, location, character). I tend to gravitate towards high gold, high initiative plots initially and then refine my plot deck. I find that I seem to need to refine my plot decks alot more than my draw decks.

I used to always build my plot decks last when I first started playing, but lately I have been building them more at the same time.

I'm 50% in picking plots before or after decks.

Things like power of blood or power fo arms usually get picked before the draw deck is made as it gives me a weighing/focus factor (2 3 costs characters, same STR and Same icons, oh wait crest wins). Control plots tend to get added as I see holes, this is also true for fury plots (i generally don't have a fury plot in lanni, always in bara, and sometimes in targ) as i see where the holes are.

The original question, based on my above statement, I would answer this way: The plot deck is there to refine the overall theme of the deck, but only for a max of 3 plots, the rest is to help achieve and/or balance out board position and game strength.

Look at the city plots. One is the Seed plot, with another possible way to do it again. The rest are all about control. Kneel, Kill, Discard, and Recursion. And the repeat plot can just as easily repeat those.

heres my bara Black Friday plot deck. 2 deck themes, Power of blood 1 board speeder, fury. 4 control, Fleeing, valar, Rule, and Raven's Song (control season)

Lars said:

Consider that the Seed Plot is also a resource generator. Played correctly, it is essentially a 7-6-1 plot, not a 3-6-1. Interesting that resource generation is the seed for the cycle, huh?

I always build my plot deck afterward. I just can't get how people build their plot deck first. It boggles the mind. While looking through cards I often set aside plots that I think might go in or that I might want to consider. So as I'm building my plot deck I usually start with about 15 plots or so. I can usually knock out around three or four right off the bat, but then I have to narrow the rest down to 7. I always try and have at least 2 plots that have over 4 gold. Now that there aren't very many 5 gold plots though, I've found myself settling for much less useful plots just for the gold. I really don't like running a reset, but more often than not I find myself including them just because it seems like a good idea, and I don't have a lot of character control. Which makes me realize that I almost always choose plots that benefit me rather than hurt my opponent. I'd rather have something that gives my characters str rather than taking away my opponent's str. Hmmmm. That probably says something about me...

ktom said:

It says to me that a shadows reset wouldn't hurt. especially since you can follow up 7-6-1 with 5-0-2.....

Lars said:

It'd be easy to hijack the thread on that thought, I think. Maybe that's next week's discussion.

Staton said:

Building the plot deck first or at least a rough draft of the plot deck is very useful in certain builds for instance, if you are running the city plots, I find it more useful to decide on whether I am using the city plots beforehand and then build the deck accordingly.

Lars said:

Its not functionally equivalent to 7-6-1 and using the Copy effect to follow the 3-6-1 seed plot is really not a wise play imo.

First the reason, the dropping two cards into shadows for free is not like 7-6-1 since those cards are now in shadows not in play. This could be a positive but it always could be a negative. With only 3 gold on the seed plot and only 1 gold on the copy plot, you are quite limited in which shadows cards you can bring out of shadows. Sure with the right cards it works well, but you will not always have a hand where the free shadows works as well as a 7-6-1 would and the only time it is better than a 7-6-1 is if the opponent is playing Blockade that turn. Sure you might get cards into shadows easier but depending on the opponent that may not help you.

I would say at least in the builds I use, using the copy plot to copy City of Sin is the best use of that 2 claim plot by far.

LaughingTree said:

Well that does make sense. But I find that if I personally try and do that, I end up forcing something that isn't really working at times. I want to get my draw deck running smooth and then incorporate plots that help the theme of the deck. I see where you're coming from, but that just never seems to work out for me.

Staton said:

think I am just the opposite. Whenever I tried building decks and then matching plot decks afterwards it never seemed to work. I think my best builds come from building both plot and main deck in unison and adjusting both accordingly. I just can't build the plot deck afterwards and get the synergy that I can the other way around. Different strokes,

cheers Staton

I used to always build the plot deck after. Then certain plots would jump out and I'd build a deck around them so I started building the two simultaneously. While I finish my plot deck last, I find myself always having two to three plots in mind as must or near includes based on my early decisions about what I want to accomplish with the deck. I don't think I have ever made my plot deck first without already, at least mentally, including half a dozen to two dozen cards into my envisioned draw deck.

As to what I use the plot deck for... well I prefer disruptive plot decks as a general rule, things that will take my opponent out of his game, removing key components or negatively affecting his STR or ability to execute challenges. Make him change his plans on the fly and it breeds chaos into his thought process. Usually, 3-4 cards do this. I grab two cards that will give me some needed stat advantage be it high gold or initiative or claim to really help me get my own deck/strategy going, and then I look for 1-2 which will either cover holes in my game plan or leverage me into a better position, these could be resets, or search, or draw, or some other form of mechanic that is under represented in my draw deck.

It´s definetely a simultaneously build. The draw deck is the sheet music and the plot deck is the theme for a deck. I don´t get how people could build good decks otherwise?! Denial decks should be supported by denial and/or reset plots, a rush deck should have plots that support this theme etc. So building a plot and a draw deck is a dual process for me.

I generally gather ideas for my plot deck as I'm building my draw deck. Then, once I'm finished putting both together, I go back through my draw deck and try to see if there's anything I left out that can utilize my plots better, or adjust for my gold curve.

I always have a reset (usually Wildfire, unless there's a specific purpose for Valar), at least 2 plots with 4 or more gold, 1 or 2 claim 2's, and the remaining are plots that run well with the deck.

If I believe my deck will frequently (by design or not) be in a possition to recover from a disruptive plot faster than my opponent, I'll includ it. Usually, these are the plots I find I start building my deck around. Plots that help my deck out (ie. search, draw, etc.) are usually more to fill holes in my deck design. While, I do tend to build around things like Power of Blood (or Arms), it's usually not durring the initial construction of my deck.

I also, have a really bad habbit of getting too "gimmicky" with some of my decks. The gimmick usually drives the construction of the plot deck first, and then the draw deck. However, I find these decks are less successful for me, and I end up never using them in competition.

Could someone clairfy for a new player what the City plots are and what the Seed plot is. Usually I just punch whatever the card name is into tzumainn's search. So abreveations like Valar and Wildfire work cause I punch those in and figure out which card you guys mean based on context. Sorry to be a pain, I realize that these are discussion by veteran player's, that also will help out a new player. Just trying to figure out what you guys are saying. Guess I am looking for "commons" speak and some of what you guys are writing comes out Dothraki to me. Thanks for the patience.

sure City plots refer to all the plots in the Kings Landing cycle and they have the City trait (which is a search-able field on tzumainn) and usually city in the title (also a searchable field). The seed plot is City of Lies which is 3-6-1 and allows you to put up to two cards from your hand into shadows (obviously they have to have the crest) when revealed. we call it seed as you are seeding the shadows area, clever huh

Thank you makes sense and yes very clever.

TravisS said:

Don't worry about being a pain around here. The more people playing this game the better

The City plots are a cycle of traited plots in the Kings Landing chapter pack cycle. Type City as a trait on Tzumainn's site and they should come up. Basically, the plots build off of eachother (getting stronger as you build up more city plots in your used plot pile).

Lars said:

The seed plot is City of Lies which is 3-6-1 and allows you to put up to two cards from your hand into shadows (obviously they have to have the crest) when revealed. we call it seed as you are seeding the shadows area, clever huh

Hmm. We call it the "seed plot" around here because all the City plots (except City of Lies) have a "do X, X is the number of City plots in your used pile" effect. City of Lies thus "seeds" the effects of all the other CIty plots - making sure that X is never 0. Never thought of it as "seeding" the Shadows area....

City plots are an interesting example of how some plots seem to pigeon-hole the use of others. If people use City of Lies for their Shadows deck, they seem to feel obligated to use another 3-4 of the others. As such, the plots accompanying a Shadows themed deck start feeling a little predictable (you expect to see City plots).

Do others experience that, too? Are there other plots that tend to "cluster" in your plot decks this way?

I tend to start off with some kind theme/idea for the deck, and that already gives some idea of what type of plots are going to go into the deck... For example a Baratheon vigilant deck wants to have extra challenges, so An Empty Throne becomes an obvious choice. So I end up with ~50% of plots chosen beforehand, by the theme of the deck, and the rest I choose later on, and often change after some playtesting.

Usually I tend to also find myself looking more for plots that benefit my own deck, than for ones that hamper the other player. Although I usually end up with quite an even balance. I sometimes seem to find myself trying to put in too situational plots, and ending up with too gimmicky plot decks.

I think the plot deck has at least three notable functions:

(1) To support the main idea of your own deck (high claim, extra challenges, city of sin for shadows, keeping nobles alive for renown)

(2) Combat your major weakness (anti-rush for slow control decks, location removal if you're lacking in it...)

(3) Provide surprise factor

Of these the last also plays quite a big role... I feel that any plot effect that can completely alter the board situation, and the way the game is played has inherent power in itself. Because it's a surprise you can prepare for, but the other player(s) can't, you end up on top. A good example of such a plot would be Desolate Passage - suddenly a group of stealth weenies can't just walk past any defense as they please etc. Blockade would be another good example. Calm Over Westeros could also fit this category, and so forth.

ktom said:

That has been my experience. Also, as a new player, the auto-synergy of these plots has given a tremendous advantage to whichever of us new players had it (we have been playing only with one set of cards). The other plots required some more fiddling and matching to work together with the draw deck/each other. Being able to kneel a handful of characters in round 4 or so and then kill another has been turning many matches in the city plot player's favor, all else being equal. And yes, including one seems to lead to including 4-5.

With that in mind, I would like to get some input on the "reset plots". These seem at first to be rather counter-intuitive, like choosing any plot that would help both you and your opponent (or hurt both), rather than just benefit you/hurt him. Yet, to my surprise, resets seemed to be included in the vast majority of decklists I came across. I am assuming that those that include these plots are planning on some ability to come back quickly after a reset, and this is why they seem to be so prolific?

Rheingold said:

Yes and no. Like so much else in this game, it depends on how you think of it.

Resets (mostly plots, but other effects too) tend to be more about restoring balance than about hurting/helping a particular player. Resets are in a vast majority of decks as a safety measure. If your opponent gets too far ahead in some aspect of the game, you flip the reset and usually find yourselves on relatively equal footing again. If you are far ahead, you don't flip the reset and hope you don't get to the 7th plot. Sure, resets have the potential to bite you, but most players prefer to have the option than to be caught unprepared by a particularly bad start (or a particularly good start by an opponent).

That said, resets can be used strategically as you say - by designing the deck specifically to come back from it faster than an opponent. Then, the reset becomes an offensive weapon (most common example is Valar in a Greyjoy deck with lots of saves) instead of a balance enforcer - although that option is still there in your plot deck for you if needed.

So yeah, if you look at it from a "hurts us both" point of view, resets will seem counterintuitive without hedging your draw deck to come back quickly and holding off on the reset until you have those "comeback" pieces. But if you look at them from a "restore balance" point of view, they make a lot more sense.

Also, when you take the "restore balance" viewpoint, more things start looking like resets:

Character reset: Wildfire Assault, Valar Morghulis, Threat from the North ("weenie control")

Location reset: Fleeing to the Wall

Hand reset: Rule by Degree

Anything I'm missing? Any other plots people use as resets - particularly to restore some type of balance?