Couldn't you do this a lot cheaper with Howlrunner, 6 TIEs, and a Lamda? It's a hard hitter, but you're making assumptions about dice rolls and ship attacks that aren't necessarily true. I'm also wary about repeated usage of squadron commands to throw dice that may or may not damage a ship just because you can. If you are throwing squadrons like crazy, you're not navigating, and they're getting away from you.

The point of the squadron game is to either occupy their squadrons or bomb their ships, depending on what you want to do with them. You're devoting a BUNCH of points to do one job really well (kill enemy squadrons), but then when you win the squadron game, they are not great at hurting ships. Which lets me and my ships hit yours for very little response. I'd gladly trade 64ish points of my fighter screen for your ISD, any day of the week.

I really enjoyed your breakdown. I try to go on the cheaper side of squads for the Imperial unless I am building a bomber wing, so I run something like Dengar, 2 TIE/A, Tempest, Jonus, Mauler. I love Jonus, as I have received many a flotilla kill and crucial token blocking from him.

I usually steer clear of Fel, but with the Chiraneau/Vector idea, I think I'll try swapping Dengar for Fel or IG-88 with that flotilla combo.

So many ideas to play through and try out. THANKS!

what do you guys think of this as a light screen:

Soontir Fel, Saber Squadron, 2x Black sq.

if you have points add TIE/d and more black sq/TIE Adv

what do you guys think of this as a light screen:

Soontir Fel, Saber Squadron, 2x Black sq.

if you have points add TIE/d and more black sq/TIE Adv

There can only be 1 Black Squadron. It is unique.

what do you guys think of this as a light screen:

Soontir Fel, Saber Squadron, 2x Black sq.

if you have points add TIE/d and more black sq/TIE Adv

Black squadron is unique, so has to be Black Squad/Tie Adv

The question is - how all these squads are going to be activated?

Couldn't you do this a lot cheaper with Howlrunner, 6 TIEs, and a Lamda? It's a hard hitter, but you're making assumptions about dice rolls and ship attacks that aren't necessarily true. I'm also wary about repeated usage of squadron commands to throw dice that may or may not damage a ship just because you can. If you are throwing squadrons like crazy, you're not navigating, and they're getting away from you.

The point of the squadron game is to either occupy their squadrons or bomb their ships, depending on what you want to do with them. You're devoting a BUNCH of points to do one job really well (kill enemy squadrons), but then when you win the squadron game, they are not great at hurting ships. Which lets me and my ships hit yours for very little response. I'd gladly trade 64ish points of my fighter screen for your ISD, any day of the week.

Agreed.

If there were some more bomber threats mixed in there (Maarek Stele comes to mind instantly) I think it would be better as then you can use winning the squadron mini-game as a step towards winning the actual game with the kind of investment you made.

I love using Vader Soontier Dengar, Vaders Counter one from Dengar hits at a better clip(seeing Crits count) and with soonter that most likely 2 damage back who ever attacks him. I don't think I would really change anything. Maybe go Vader 1 more advanced soontier dengar and the rest defenders. Just so you have some hitting power after the squad game is over. Feel defenders are better in a all comers list. but that's a preference or different mentality.

Like the Set up.

my version of a slightly cheaper screen: gonzo, chirp, mauler, black squadron. Its downright dirty for the points.

Man, I've been a big subscriber to this anti-squad mix theory for a while (actual mix different, but I'm not gonna argue which you like better: vanilla, french vanilla, or natural vanilla bean). It has almost always worked for me... even when they go squadronless; as you said, drain the shield then fire the main arc of the ISD & acc their brace. I do like the Lambda addition, but I like it for the Strategic quality. I think this is going to become a big Key word soon.

The theory gets killed when brought up by the "what about this" crowd. You're just gonna have to make it work a bunch to convince ppl.

The original post showing a 134 point squadron killer example of Sygnetix's theories looks fun but it is still the cost that bothers me. Spending all 134 points on anti-fighter specialist squadrons and then some more points to support them (Ciraneau, Boosted comms etc.) seems harsh. It has a risk of being sub standard against a light fighter force, swatting them easily - but then inefficiently attacking ships. There are some black dice included but it is without bombers.

Syngetix gives examples of what to drop/substitute to reduce the cost but I wonder if 6-8 Tie-Int and a set of flight controllers could do the job with waves of blue dice for fewer points.

Sontir Fel is great in theory paired with Escort Tie-As but the enemy can see this and tend in my experience to move to range 1 of the Tie-A but not Fel and shoot from there. Fell will score auto damage in the game bit not on every occasion. Once one escort is dead it is increasingly difficult to surround your 4 juicy targets (Dengar, Mauler, Fel, Lamda) with escort. Still as this happens the imperials are dishing out damage at a good rate so hopefully they can just take it as they die slower (or kill faster) than their opponents.

Agreed, I know a lot of people take issue with the 167 (169 w/Vector) point investment. If you make all suggested cuts, it drops that down to 107, including the Gozanti/Admiral combo.

Because there is such an investment in fighters, I definitely highly recommend spamming squadron commands every turn.

Why? Because, lol. No, in all seriousness because there is such an investment, why not? Give up 1 dice from concentrate fire for 3-5 squadrons worth, depending on your carriers load outs? Seems fair. So in this instance, you activate a stripped down ISD. Four squadrons activate. They either get "initiative" in the squad war and can dictate how and when the fighters engage OR they can begin weaking the shields of a ship.

In my experience, opponents won't burn defense tokens on squadron attacks against shields.

So let's say out of those 4 activated squadrons, we got 4 hits. Thats either 4 shields or some redirects since they can't brace 1 damage from each squadron nor can they evade. Can't get that from a concentrate fire command.

Now your ISD fires....at a ship with no shields before you even touched your dice.

I usually turn 1 navigate token and turn 2 engineering token (unless it seems like we're going to engage in turn two, then it's squadron commands). To off set the lowered maneuverability due to squadron command spams, I run speed 2 or 1 on the Carrier ISD.

As far as just a fist full of Interceptors....sure. I guess. I don't think it would be as flexible as this list. I think that if your fist full of Interceptors encounters a fist full of Awings, they'll die a horrific, fiery death and then your opponent will do to you what I'm saying to do to them.

Also....is there a reason you're talking about me and not to me?

I was addressing everyone who has contributed to this illustrious thread started by yourself. This is after all a discussion open to us all, which is why I assume you started it. I referenced your ideas and gave my views on the topic of Imperial counter squadron strategies. Hope that's ok.

Couldn't you do this a lot cheaper with Howlrunner, 6 TIEs, and a Lamda? It's a hard hitter, but you're making assumptions about dice rolls and ship attacks that aren't necessarily true. I'm also wary about repeated usage of squadron commands to throw dice that may or may not damage a ship just because you can. If you are throwing squadrons like crazy, you're not navigating, and they're getting away from you.

The point of the squadron game is to either occupy their squadrons or bomb their ships, depending on what you want to do with them. You're devoting a BUNCH of points to do one job really well (kill enemy squadrons), but then when you win the squadron game, they are not great at hurting ships. Which lets me and my ships hit yours for very little response. I'd gladly trade 64ish points of my fighter screen for your ISD, any day of the week.

Definitely on the Nav point, which is why I take that Nav Token turn one. Not much but it helps. By turn 5 or so you can have them queued as well and just assume you'll take enough squadron casualtiesfor it to not matter OR that the intel is all dead and the fighters are locked in a fight somewhere.

I look at it this way...If you play the anti-squadron game, you'll completely clear someone trying ti play the bomber game. If you come across someone who just tosses a token screen, you'll have it cleared in a turn, maybe two. Now you're at an advantage because those points he put in that screen, be it 20 or 50, aren't in his fleet. Add that number to whatever his initiative bid is and you're....what? 50+ points again? Maybe 70 depending on bid + token screen.

In the end, the only thing Ive found that will kill this set up is either a similiar set up that outplays you or the cheap anti-squadron wing backed up by ships like Raiders.

If this list matches a bomber list, it's more than likely a win.

If this list comes across a list with no squadrons or a token screen, odds are good it's an MSU list, in which case you could argue in favor of the effectiveness of non-bomber hits on ships.

If that no squadrons list/token screen list is a double Motti ISd with RBD.... it's going to be a struggle, but again, focus on one ship at a time and play smart. Chances are good he'll have an ISDI so stay out of black range for example (if you're running an ISD2 or something to that effect). If you go wit the dual gladiators.

When I say use carriers, I don't mean for the entire wing. That's my preference (I'd rather move and shoot than move or shoot) but again... opinions.

what do you guys think of this as a light screen:

Soontir Fel, Saber Squadron, 2x Black sq.

if you have points add TIE/d and more black sq/TIE Adv

There can only be 1 Black Squadron. It is unique.

A whole Galactic empire and they couldn't find enough people crazy enough to fly a 3 hull escort fighter to field two squadrons.

what do you guys think of this as a light screen:

Soontir Fel, Saber Squadron, 2x Black sq.

if you have points add TIE/d and more black sq/TIE Adv

There can only be 1 Black Squadron. It is unique.

A whole Galactic empire and they couldn't find enough people crazy enough to fly a 3 hull escort fighter to field two squadrons.

I don't even know how they recruited enough pilots for one squadron.

"Okay we're looking for pilots brave enough to completely absorb the attention of enemy fighters while piloting an unshielded fighter basically made of sci-fi cardboard, resentment, and unanswered prayers."

"Awesome."

This apparently happened enough times to field an entire squadron somehow.

I appreciate this thread because I would like to hear more discussions on handling max-squadron Rebels. I've got my own mix of fighters to try but that's another story.

I like what I see in your setup Sygnetix, three escorts to choose from and too many threats to really hammer any one of them. Two squads are only hull 3, most of the rest are 4 or higher. I feel like firepower could be improved... the biggest sources of damage are going to be Vader, IG-88, and Fel for firing four dice, and Mithel for his ability. Only Fel has a re-roll. There's plenty of counter as well...

Positioning can be pretty important here. Can you describe which squadrons would be activated first, if you could only trigger two activations at a time? I typically avoid using Gozantis as carriers because I like flight controllers too much, and I like my activations being 3+, mostly to avoid sending few squadrons in that can get hammered by a Yavaris letting flotillas delay an activation.

For using IG-88 to bypass Escort to destroy the Intel carriers, how would you move/deploy to gurantee that IG-88 doesn't get singled out and destroyed? IG can't destroy Jan Ors by himself, and without Swarm he is unable to destroy a generic HWK with less than a perfect roll.

What I was running with was a supercarrier ISD pushing for 6 fighter activations with Flight Controller support. The fighters I have are:

Darth Vader

Zertik Strom

Cienna Ree

Maarek Stele

Valen Rudor

Mauler Mithel

Major Rhymer

Dengar

Jumpmaster generic

It needs some work (I've got two sources of Intel just to keep Mithel going), but in one test so far it managed to crack the usual Rebel speedbumps I'm encountering through a fluke. I lead with Cienna for block and counter, leave Vader as the last activation to slam whatever needs to die, Valen to do VT levels of damage (with swarm) at the ankles, and Zetrik is there just to be an escort with tokens (used his ability on Stele once for a re-roll after two blanks and a crit. Exact same roll. Most useless ace in the game). Rhymer was taking medium range potshots at the Yavaris while hanging in the background.

It's a neat ball, I need to test it a few more times to work out the kinks and get everything working.

So let's say out of those 4 activated squadrons, we got 4 hits. Thats either 4 shields or some redirects since they can't brace 1 damage from each squadron nor can they evade. Can't get that from a concentrate fire command.

Now your ISD fires....at a ship with no shields before you even touched your dice.

Suggest we agree to use statistical averages here, your squadrons all either bring one black or one blue non- bomber anti ship die, means 0,5 average damage for blues, 0,75 average damage for blacks. Anti ship punch is the weak link in your squadron superiority list, there is no way to argue around that.

As to your lifeboat argument, I agree that it is an easy way to keep your admiral alive, but is it an effective investment to place chiraneau on that lifeboat and to rely on another 15 pts relay squadron to allow 2/3 squadrons to move out of engagement? Difficult to judge without seeing the complete list, but it is a sub-par use of chiraneau (10 pts) who could to better being in command on a high squadron value ship, backed by a Lambda which you only need as he is placed on that flimsy platform and together with a high-value target.

So let's say out of those 4 activated squadrons, we got 4 hits. Thats either 4 shields or some redirects since they can't brace 1 damage from each squadron nor can they evade. Can't get that from a concentrate fire command.

Now your ISD fires....at a ship with no shields before you even touched your dice.

Anti ship punch is the weak link in your squadron superiority list, there is no way to argue around that.

I don't think there are many ways around this... Empire doesn't have many aces that can do both jobs well. IMO, only three fighters can be pressed to multi-role (in ascending order of firepower): TIE Advanced (black battery), TIE Defender (Stats, bomber keyword) and the VT (AA and Battery stats). The TIE Phantom is a bit too tricky with 4 hull to feel reliable, but it could also count. Out of all of them only one has the Bomber keyword.

All of these fighters are also more expensive than the X-Wing at 13 points, which is a great squadron attack ship that also has bomber.

In fact, Rebel Xs and Bs do squadron attack and bombing very well when mixed. It's a bit iffy with the X-Wings, but four dice is better than standard on the attack, and B-Wings with a standard 3 make up for it by having the strongest battery out of a squadron in the game, with Bomber (beating out, IMO, the VT). I mention these things because I still feel it's easier to make an all-comers fighter attack squad out of the Rebellion than the Empire, which has wider ramifications for squadron superiority. *shrug*

How are you activating the other 6 fighters?

Would that be an ISD which isnt using navigate commands? Can I alternatively suggest mass YV666s with Valen Rudor, Mauler and IG. Extremelly potent anti fighter, and Valen solves the issue with the YV666. This way your ISD can concentrate on doing its main job. Clearing the ships.

ISD (4) + Expanded Hangars (5) + Wulf Yularen or any token passer (6)

Why would my ISD in that configuration be using navigate commands? The thought going into that is that I activate my squadrons to do their thing at that point in the game. This means getting the jump on other enemy squadrons before they activate or the squadron phase (including any rogue), or knocking down defense tokens on the target ship before the ISD opens fire. I've been sneaking Avenger on to this setup for that exact reason.

I've also been experimenting with Rapid Launch Bays and Expanded Hangers to pack five VTs into the ISD (it cant' be six, because it's the maximum natural squadron value). After a Gozanti hands a token to the ISD, it fires and races up where Flight Commander tells the VTs to drop and open fire. If I didn't lose Demolisher to the cursed Rebel speedbump list I keep practicing against, it might have worked spectacularly since that's two massive sources of damage delivered at the end of their movement. Alas...

Ok, an ISD activating bombers can generating a salvo of 4 dmg and mess with defence tokens.

An ISD using nav token can make sure its front arc is on target, potentially adding 6dmg, 3 after brace.

An ISD activating fighters adds 2 dmg.

So why would you want your ISD activating fighters?

I use squadron commands because then I can activate squadrons AND have a front arc.

I've found it's really hard to NOT have something important in my ISD front arc... it is stupid big.

So let's say out of those 4 activated squadrons, we got 4 hits. Thats either 4 shields or some redirects since they can't brace 1 damage from each squadron nor can they evade. Can't get that from a concentrate fire command.

Now your ISD fires....at a ship with no shields before you even touched your dice.

Anti ship punch is the weak link in your squadron superiority list, there is no way to argue around that.

I don't think there are many ways around this... Empire doesn't have many aces that can do both jobs well. IMO, only three fighters can be pressed to multi-role (in ascending order of firepower): TIE Advanced (black battery) , TIE Defender (Stats, bomber keyword) and the VT (AA and Battery stats). The TIE Phantom is a bit too tricky with 4 hull to feel reliable, but it could also count. Out of all of them only one has the Bomber keyword.

All of these fighters are also more expensive than the X-Wing at 13 points, which is a great squadron attack ship that also has bomber.

In fact, Rebel Xs and Bs do squadron attack and bombing very well when mixed. It's a bit iffy with the X-Wings, but four dice is better than standard on the attack, and B-Wings with a standard 3 make up for it by having the strongest battery out of a squadron in the game, with Bomber (beating out, IMO, the VT). I mention these things because I still feel it's easier to make an all-comers fighter attack squad out of the Rebellion than the Empire, which has wider ramifications for squadron superiority. *shrug*

The TIE Advanced costs 12 points though...

And although the TIE Defender does cost 3 points more than an X-Wing, it literally does everything better than an X-Wing

This is the kind of thread that I love to see on these forums. Real discussion of tactics, counter-tactics, and play philosophy.

Thanks to everyone participating.

I'm currently viewing all of this from a campaign viewpoint. Which means my enemies will often get to pick which force I am facing. So if I go too far into the anti-squadron camp then I will face opponents with no bombers. If I go too far into the bomber camp I will face opponents with strong anti-squadron.

A balanced force that isn't a one-trick-pony is essential. You must at least appear to be a threat to any type of fleet that wishes to face you. Give your opponents hard choices and it increases the odds that they will make an error.

How are you activating the other 6 fighters?

Would that be an ISD which isnt using navigate commands? Can I alternatively suggest mass YV666s with Valen Rudor, Mauler and IG. Extremelly potent anti fighter, and Valen solves the issue with the YV666. This way your ISD can concentrate on doing its main job. Clearing the ships.

The problem with the YV's is that speed 2. If you're forced to reposition, you're in for a bad time. The ISD (or others) requires some finesse. Speed 1 and careful positioning helps initially. As stated previously in this thread, pushing out nav commands around turn 4/5 help to reposition. Thus far I've been able to position well enough to keep the ISD relevant later in the game but switching commands as squadrons either get eliminated or get "dug-in" with other squadrons.

I use squadron commands because then I can activate squadrons AND have a front arc.

I've found it's really hard to NOT have something important in my ISD front arc... it is stupid big.

And if you use flight controllers, you get to fire your shots, move, then get your fighters into the fight. I've actually double arced with an ISD, moved to bump block a second ship, used my fighters to finish off the first target, then repeated the next turn while only taking 4 damage on the ISD from the 2 bumps and 2 hits that got through shields.

There are other ways to keep targets in your front arc than navigate commands >:-)

And if you use flight controllers, you get to fire your shots, move, then get your fighters into the fight....

I think you mean Flight Commander, but yeah... The other thing that I like about them is that you generally don't need Boosted Coms (not that I really ever think you do anyway, but to each their own tactic) because if necessary you can get forward into range of the squads you wanna activate.