So what you're saying is if the Rebel player invests a lot of points into squadrons and squadron support abilities and uses them in tandem with the rest of his fleet and the Imperial player's only plan is "I guess I'll try throwing a few Interceptors into the middle of that," then the Imperial player is going to have a bad time? What a horrific injustice.

What I'm saying is that the investments paid into rebel squadrons and supporting them will go much further than the same amount of points invested in imperial squads. Rebel squads are great both vs squadrons and ships, while on the flip side you must specialize in one or the other as an Imperial, or suffer on both fronts trying to make a balanced fighter wing that isn't all that good at either.

on the flip side, empire has the soft intel counter in soontir still doing damage even while heavy

stack with mauler and it gets real ugly real fast

Never considered triggering Soontir off the enemy attacking a ship... Thanks!

What I'm saying is that the investments paid into rebel squadrons and supporting them will go much further than the same amount of points invested in imperial squads. Rebel squads are great both vs squadrons and ships, while on the flip side you must specialize in one or the other as an Imperial, or suffer on both fronts trying to make a balanced fighter wing that isn't all that good at either.

Rebel squads are not great versus both. X-Wings are better vs. squadrons. Y-Wings are better versus ships, etc. Yes they are designed to be more multi-purpose than their earlier Imperial counterparts, but they pay more points for it. You can get similar effectiveness from a mix of dedicated Imperial squadrons but you can't just push them forward in a disjointed blob like Rebels can because they're miserable outside of their specialty and don't handle being in the wrong place at the wrong time nearly as well as Rebels do.

Another way to look at it is if you want to specialize, your 134 points of dedicated bombers will absolutely be more bombing muscle than 134 points of Rebel bombers because you're not paying the points to be even half-decent against fighters. You just need a plan (Intel+Escort, Chiraneau, whatever) to make that work without getting stuck. Similarly, your X points in fighters are superior to X points of Rebel fighters because that's all they do. The disappointment from Imperial players seems to come from people who

A) overpay on fighters and then find they're not much good at actually doing much once they've won the squadron mini-game and they get jealous of X-Wings and the like who can still kind of bomb afterwards

and/or

B) don't sufficiently protect a bomber group (with other fighters or Intel) and then blame it on the TIE Bombers, who weren't even supposed to come in to work today, and get envious of Y-Wings or X-Wings or what have you that can (kind of) fight their way out of trouble rather than throw a single black dice at it.

and/or

C) run 3 HP TIE Fighters into death traps near enemy flak and unsupported by Imperial ships and then are incensed when the overextended fragile squadron thrown into obvious danger gets destroyed

Now that Imperials can use TIE Defenders, the hands-down best all-purpose generic squadron in the game (best speed, great hull, best anti-squadron, best anti-ship on a mixed-role fighter), I don't understand what the continued complaining is about. You want to run a bunch of high-class all-rounders that can fight and then bomb when they're done? You absolutely can and you don't even need to spend the points on Escort like X-Wings do. If combining specialist squads isn't your thing, you have an out now. What's wrong with that?

I am closest to being in the "A" category on that one Snipa. Whenever I try to run a dedicated anti squad space superiority wing as an Imperial I find it's either not quite enough, or it is a raging ball of lethality that tears apart the enemy and then runs away the rest of the game to not get killed by errant aa fire. Although as I had mentioned earlier, I only have one game with the new toys under my belt, so I am interested to see how the tie defender plays.

Flechettes are good lockdown strategy as well, though more suited to imp play style.

I am closest to being in the "A" category on that one Snipa. Whenever I try to run a dedicated anti squad space superiority wing as an Imperial I find it's either not quite enough, or it is a raging ball of lethality that tears apart the enemy and then runs away the rest of the game to not get killed by errant aa fire. Although as I had mentioned earlier, I only have one game with the new toys under my belt, so I am interested to see how the tie defender plays.

You know, it's perfectly ok for glass cannons to run away after doing their job.

If you look at it from the Rebel side, their squadrons are tough, but their ships are fragile.

When my MC30's and Liberties are fleeing the battlefield with 1 or 2 hull left, desperately trying to stay alive for the remaining turns of the game (but having accomplished their mission).....I have never been even tempted to think "gosh well now since I have to run away I guess they were a waste of points."

Now try approaching it from the Imperial perspective, where Imperial "A-Wings" are hull 3, and they're supposed to fly into reinforced bomber balls with more than 4 hull, and against sources of Intel with counter 2. Rebels also have access to Toryn Farr and great Escorts that can also participate in the bombing fun along with the Bs and Ys they are likely guarding. The Rebels will make short work of the Imperial attempts, then go on to bomb the capital ships. It's even easier if Yavaris is present with some activation-stalling GR-75s with Bomber Command center and/or Boosted Comms.

You are omitting the fact that these Imperial "A-wings" are also Speed 5, allowing them the luxury of when and where to engage. They have four blues with a reroll NOT dependent on having a fragile ship nearby, and appropriately supported can be rolling 6 blue dice with counter 4. Think about that - a generic squadron, rolling 6 blue dice and counter 4. They're cheaper than X-wings. And you think that Rebels still have the superior antisquadron capability? We're not even getting into Aces like Fel or Mithel... There is no question that the Imperials have the greater maximum antisquadron potential. None at all.

Don't forget about Ketsu Onyo...she isn't allowing ANYONE to run away, Intel or not!

I think Ketsu with Xwing/YT1300 has the potential to severly hammper if not crush the x2 HWK lists. Kestu is also great for escaping bombers in a critical turn. They can't chase you. But i'm yet to see it or put it on the table!

My thoughts are that the game designers have done an excellent job balancing this game and that house rules or tweaks are fine, but not needed...

I've watched this debate go on for a long time, and I've decided to share my 2 pence. Intel isn't unstoppable.

I've shut down a double-Intel full-points Rhymerball with 6 A-Wings and flak fire from a Liberty. By the end of it (1 round of shooting on the approach, followed by 1 round of activations before the Rhymerball could) both sources of Intel were dead and the Rhymerball was dead in the water.

In a turn of events that you particularly might appreciate, my Liberty - after having survived 1 round of Intel'ed BCC bomber fire with its hull intact - died to the guns of 2 Vic-IIs with Spinal Armaments.

If Intel and Bombers were completely unstoppable, then we wouldn't have Wave IV Regionals being won by fleets with 4 A-Wings. That says something. I don't know if you're up on the most recent competition news, but one of the most recent Wave V Regionals was won by a fleet that had an MC80 Assault Cruiser lit up like a Christmas tree (191 pts!)

The most current data coming out of the Regionals shows that Large ships are competitive, even against Intel-backed, Flight Commander and Fighter Coordination Team-supported Yavaris B-Wing swarms. Times are changing.

You're comparing Rebel fighters with highly specialized TIE Bombers, and Hull 4 Jumpmaster generics without counter. Your A-Wings have four hull points and counter 2. Those TIE Bombers are rolling one black. Of course that many A wings are going to make short work of the intel and lock down that bomber ball for a while, regardless if Rhymer is there or not.

Now try approaching it from the Imperial perspective, where Imperial "A-Wings" are hull 3, and they're supposed to fly into reinforced bomber balls with more than 4 hull, and against sources of Intel with counter 2. Rebels also have access to Toryn Farr and great Escorts that can also participate in the bombing fun along with the Bs and Ys they are likely guarding. The Rebels will make short work of the Imperial attempts, then go on to bomb the capital ships. It's even easier if Yavaris is present with some activation-stalling GR-75s with Bomber Command center and/or Boosted Comms.

On the other hand, I've put together a build that uses a gunship Warlord , an isd2 built for anti ship, and a pair of flotillas with the following fighter screen, and I think it's quite effective.

Zertik, Tempest, Jonus, Mauler, TIE Bomber, TIE Fighter. 76 points. If you have 2, left over, make the generics Black Squadron and Gamma Squadron for good measure. Chiraneau on a flotilla guarantees that you can get Mauler's ability working multiple times.

Run Warlord with Ruthless Strategists, and use your escorts and the generic bomber as hull fuel for the upgrade. If you want more points, downgrade everything but mauler to generics. If jonus, tempest, and zertik are generics instead, you can even upgrade the generic TIE to Fel. Autodamage for days.

Don't forget about Ketsu Onyo...she isn't allowing ANYONE to run away, Intel or not!

I think Ketsu with Xwing/YT1300 has the potential to severly hammper if not crush the x2 HWK lists. Kestu is also great for escaping bombers in a critical turn. They can't chase you. But i'm yet to see it or put it on the table!

Add in Biggs and Jan and your X-wings will last even longer...

Now try approaching it from the Imperial perspective, where Imperial "A-Wings" are hull 3, and they're supposed to fly into reinforced bomber balls with more than 4 hull, and against sources of Intel with counter 2. Rebels also have access to Toryn Farr and great Escorts that can also participate in the bombing fun along with the Bs and Ys they are likely guarding. The Rebels will make short work of the Imperial attempts, then go on to bomb the capital ships. It's even easier if Yavaris is present with some activation-stalling GR-75s with Bomber Command center and/or Boosted Comms.

You are omitting the fact that these Imperial "A-wings" are also Speed 5, allowing them the luxury of when and where to engage. They have four blues with a reroll NOT dependent on having a fragile ship nearby, and appropriately supported can be rolling 6 blue dice with counter 4. Think about that - a generic squadron, rolling 6 blue dice and counter 4. They're cheaper than X-wings. And you think that Rebels still have the superior antisquadron capability? We're not even getting into Aces like Fel or Mithel... There is no question that the Imperials have the greater maximum antisquadron potential. None at all.

Hold up... getting to 6 means you need to dump Howlrunner in there and have flight controllers tell them to go up to 6. Counter 4 also requires Dengar and Howlrunner to tag along. Both of them become liabilities unless you peel off TIE Interceptors to take some escorts, since there's no incentive for shooting anything other than them otherwise (as soon as Dengar can cast heavy, he can be targeted).

All of which are still hull 4 or less.

So that's not just a few interceptors, that's tacking on 42 points to whatever your squadron ball is... and if you want to actually use Flight Controllers decently that's 115 for the cheapest Flight Controller carrier for the Empire (A fighter-3 VSD-I).

Those 6 A-Wings are only 66 points, and don't require much support otherwise. In part it's because they don't have those support options to miss much anyway (toryrn Farr would be a great help, but she's the saint of Starfighters anwyay). If your job is to have fire-and-forget A-Wings, they'll do okay. The only thing they'll miss is swarm, but they still have counter 2, the ability to one-shot the cheapest Imperial ships, and four hull to make the demands of killing them more than just a TIE Fighter attacking.

The kinds of fighter lists I'm bashing my head against are ones that form a defensive line out at long-to-medium range of their carrier ships. Those carriers can even hold at speed 0 to bleed off a turn while you take your time on the approach. Once you engage that squadron ball, Jan Ors comes in to unlock bombers from being intercepted to attack your closest capital ship. The X-wings, drawing fire from Bombers, then open up on your interceptors with Toryrn Farr support. B-Wings can also chime in since they aren't slouches at fighting fighters either. All of this under the guns of, typically, a Yavaris Escort Frigate, along with about 3 Bomber Command Center flotillas with boosted comms. The last ship in the list is anywhere from a CR-90A with TRCs and engine techs to a kitted out MC30. I've played mock battles against both.

The list could juggle around points for other things, like trading Jan Ors for Ten Numb if you're approaching with a lot 3-hull things. If Adar Tallon is in there too, Ten numb can try three times to blow up all your 3-hull aces when they can't even use their defense tokens. Shara Bey is in there too if you really want to be obnoxious, and Norra Wexley is a staple.

I have found a list that seems to be effective on the first try, pulling out nearly every anti-squadron ace on the Imperial side. We'll see if it works a few times more. All I know is that this list archetype is really frustrating to play against, because on their turf , it seems like there's nothing Rebel fighters can't do.

Instead of playing on their turf, why don't you make them come to you? Bid for second, and take fire lanes, contested outpost, and (advanced gunnery, assuming you have an ISD). With your fighters' speed advantage you'll still be able to dictate engagement range and timing. They will have to come to you quickly, or you start racking up the tokens. It should make your job much easier.

And if they take Advanced Gunnery, well I'm sure you can have some fun with that.

There's always the tournament option of taking a superbid and taking friendly passive objectives (Contested Outpost, Station Assault and....what?). I haven't practiced yet how that speedbump list works when it's on the move. The only difference I can think of without playing it out is that you're likely to have ships overlaping squadrons more, until they're nose-to-nose with the enemy. Since these lists always take Rieekan, it doesn't matter really if the ships are dead or not.

Since what could happen is those zombie ships stay to pin the ships they want to destroy, one flotilla or the (CR-90 / MC30) outlier flies free to keep the game going, and the fighters are right where they need to be to destroy their capital ship targets.

Gutting the lists' bombers and Norra is the quickest way to take away the power out of the list, the trick is getting to them. There also needs to be enough points in your fleet to crack the capital ships in that list. The Rebel speedbump works because it's not the ships that are fighting, it's the squads, and so far nothing less than maximum squadron points has been able to challenge it from the Imperial side of things.

After all, we all know Captial ships can't really hurt fighters. Except the Raider, for the one turn it will get...

Now try approaching it from the Imperial perspective, where Imperial "A-Wings" are hull 3, and they're supposed to fly into reinforced bomber balls with more than 4 hull, and against sources of Intel with counter 2. Rebels also have access to Toryn Farr and great Escorts that can also participate in the bombing fun along with the Bs and Ys they are likely guarding. The Rebels will make short work of the Imperial attempts, then go on to bomb the capital ships. It's even easier if Yavaris is present with some activation-stalling GR-75s with Bomber Command center and/or Boosted Comms.

You are omitting the fact that these Imperial "A-wings" are also Speed 5, allowing them the luxury of when and where to engage. They have four blues with a reroll NOT dependent on having a fragile ship nearby, and appropriately supported can be rolling 6 blue dice with counter 4. Think about that - a generic squadron, rolling 6 blue dice and counter 4. They're cheaper than X-wings. And you think that Rebels still have the superior antisquadron capability? We're not even getting into Aces like Fel or Mithel... There is no question that the Imperials have the greater maximum antisquadron potential. None at all.

Hold up... getting to 6 means you need to dump Howlrunner in there and have flight controllers tell them to go up to 6. Counter 4 also requires Dengar and Howlrunner to tag along. Both of them become liabilities unless you peel off TIE Interceptors to take some escorts, since there's no incentive for shooting anything other than them otherwise (as soon as Dengar can cast heavy, he can be targeted).

All of which are still hull 4 or less.

So that's not just a few interceptors, that's tacking on 42 points to whatever your squadron ball is... and if you want to actually use Flight Controllers decently that's 115 for the cheapest Flight Controller carrier for the Empire (A fighter-3 VSD-I).

Those 6 A-Wings are only 66 points, and don't require much support otherwise. In part it's because they don't have those support options to miss much anyway (toryrn Farr would be a great help, but she's the saint of Starfighters anwyay). If your job is to have fire-and-forget A-Wings, they'll do okay. The only thing they'll miss is swarm, but they still have counter 2, the ability to one-shot the cheapest Imperial ships, and four hull to make the demands of killing them more than just a TIE Fighter attacking.

The kinds of fighter lists I'm bashing my head against are ones that form a defensive line out at long-to-medium range of their carrier ships. Those carriers can even hold at speed 0 to bleed off a turn while you take your time on the approach. Once you engage that squadron ball, Jan Ors comes in to unlock bombers from being intercepted to attack your closest capital ship. The X-wings, drawing fire from Bombers, then open up on your interceptors with Toryrn Farr support. B-Wings can also chime in since they aren't slouches at fighting fighters either. All of this under the guns of, typically, a Yavaris Escort Frigate, along with about 3 Bomber Command Center flotillas with boosted comms. The last ship in the list is anywhere from a CR-90A with TRCs and engine techs to a kitted out MC30. I've played mock battles against both.

The list could juggle around points for other things, like trading Jan Ors for Ten Numb if you're approaching with a lot 3-hull things. If Adar Tallon is in there too, Ten numb can try three times to blow up all your 3-hull aces when they can't even use their defense tokens. Shara Bey is in there too if you really want to be obnoxious, and Norra Wexley is a staple.

I have found a list that seems to be effective on the first try, pulling out nearly every anti-squadron ace on the Imperial side. We'll see if it works a few times more. All I know is that this list archetype is really frustrating to play against, because on their turf , it seems like there's nothing Rebel fighters can't do.

Expanding on my post above, here's a sample list I put together. I haven't run this exact version yet (mostly because it's a 400 point version of a CC list I'm running right now. The problem is that my 400 point CC list only has 1 upgrade per ship, and that's more of an issue. Without Ruthless Strategists, it kind of falls apart.)

Imperial Might

Author: Onidsen

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 386/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Close-Range Intel Scan

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

= 157 total ship cost

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)

- Warlord ( 8 points)

- Ruthless Strategists ( 4 points)

- Quad Turbolaser Cannons ( 10 points)

= 107 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)

- Jamming Field ( 2 points)

= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)

- Comms Net ( 2 points)

= 25 total ship cost

1 Captain Jonus ( 16 points)

2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 TIE Bomber Squadron ( 9 points)

1 TIE Fighter Squadron ( 8 points)

There are 14 points left over. I can see a number of different ways to fill them. My preferred use is 10 points for Chiraneau - gets Mauler doing damage every turn - and the remaining 4 to upgrade the Advanced squadrons to Zertik Strom and Tempest Squadron. That gives the build more resilience against enemy fighters (double braces on an escort is nice) and makes it more of a threat to enemy ships if/after you clear out the enemy fighters.

Another strong option would be to use Chiraneau and then upgrade the generic TIEs to Sabre Squadron Interceptors instead. That gives you an even better ability to snipe Intel out from under the bomber swarm. If you do this, then I recommend replacing the comms net on the second Gozanti with the Vector title. That lets you move Sabre squadron up to distance 3 even if they get engaged by enemy escorts. That's enough to get them out and sniping again.\

Still another option would be to replace the generic TIEs with a Jumpmaster (not quite so effective at enabling Mauler, but still servicable), and use the remaining 10 points for other upgrades. Like Quad Turbolaser Cannons on the ISD. Or even Xi7s on the ISD, and then upgrading the Advanced squadrons to Zertik and Tempest Squadron. Or Xi7s and Leading Shots. The sky's the limit there, really. Even leave those last 4 points off for a bid. If theme bothers you, replace one Advanced with Black Squadron and the other with Zertik. Same cost, but more TIEs on the table, so it looks more thematic, and the only Advanced squadron is a hero. I'd give a 5-hull double brace escort and a 3-hull escort with counter about the same resilience as 2 5-hull escorts with no tokens. Might even be superior, if the counter diverts more attacks towards Zertik. Except against AA fire from ships. But that's the price you pay. (If you do a lot of finagling, you might even be able to make it Vader and Black Squadron, but I don't feel like trying to make it work at the moment).

Or, if you are feeling more defensive-minded, get the Jumpmaster, replace the ECM on the ISD with Cluster Bombs or Reinforced Blast Doors, and put Tua, Cluster Bombs/Reinforced Blast Doors, and QLTs on Warlord . That Counter 1 is much more effective when accuracies get turned to hits as well. And you can trigger Ruthless Strategists off of your Counter-fire, just as if it were a normal attack.

If you don't like Close Range Intel Scan, Advanced Gunnery is a powerful objective choice as well. Since Warlord doesn't have Gunnery Teams, there's an obvious spot to use it, and getting to double-fire with Warlord even at long range is going to hurt. Or double-fire with Ruthless Strategists on clutch enemy squads.

Against a Rebel squadron list like the one you mention, I'm actually not concerned about this list. Mauler does an unblockable auto-damage. Warlord has a 75% chance of damaging with it's anti-squadron fire, and then you trigger Ruthless Strategists if it's a key (read: Intel) squad. Jan can't brace 1 damage. So now you've done three damage to her, and that's just in one activation. The ISD fire (I'm assuming you are keeping your ships close together) or Gozanti fire can do the last damage rather easily. You've also done at least 2 damage to Biggs (if he's there) and maybe more, and 3 damage to any other important hero (like Norra Wexley).

And we haven't even figured in fire from your squadrons yet. Unless they have A-Wings, you have the speed advantage and can therefore pick and choose the terms of the engagement. And if they do have A-Wings, the combination of Mauler and AA fire from the ships will whittle them down very fast, and you can afford to be patient.

So, let's say that you've killed Jan Ors. You might not have, if you've gotten really unlucky. To make things easy, let's assume you brought the Sabre Squadron variant, because that's the best at sniping key squadrons. Next you hit Norra with Sabre squadron, and the rest - as they say - is history.

Your Jamming Fields will reduce their B-Wings to 2 dice and their non-hero Y-Wings to 1. Even their X-Wings will be hitting less hard than a TIE would. This preserves your all-important hull points so you can use them for Ruthless Strategist fuel. (Or Zertik fuel - but I don't recommend that unless Zertik has a really good shot on a key enemy squadron. Which won't happen unless your opponent makes a mistake or unless you are doing very well already.)

So there you are. Anywhere between 72 and 86 points invested in your squadrons, and you can stop a 134-point bomber wing from doing its job. Even better, you have 2 big gunships that can pound their carriers while their bombers are tied up with your screen. And if you get lucky, you might even win the squadron engagement.

.

After all, we all know Captial ships can't really hurt fighters. Except the Raider, for the one turn it will get...

And a glad-2 demolisher. Don't forget that - average of two damage per activation to each squadron.

But really no capital ship will destroy a bomber ball on its own, just as no bomber will take a ship out on its own. You need to attack with multiple ships/bombers simultaneously on a given turn...and pick off the cripples with your squadron cover. Easier said than done of course, but it's where you need to start.

As far as the squads coming to you - I think it will be a significant advantage! First, the Rebel squadrons will be forced to come into your range piecemeal (I'm assuming two or three squadrons at a time). Which means they'll be activated, and you can jump on them with relative impunity - because you'll be able to see where you can position yourself to avoid the next wave of fighters coming in. And also - no Yavaris double taps for that turn, as they have to move....in fact likely for several turns in a row (speed 2, ya know).

And since you're going second, it's easier for you to let the Rebel ships come into your range...giving you an extra round of firing.

Theoretically, of course. I haven't faced your particular opponent, but I have faced similar lists.

Intel is strong at the moment but as we see more snipe and other unique pilots being used I think Intel will be toned down on its own. House rule it on your own and see if it really works but also don't make it useless and give the players a chance to utilize it and have the opponent prepare to deal with it.

The combination of Intel and BCC Flotillas has made Bomber lists very viable and scary, which gives good flavor to the game, but now with Wave 5 we are seeing new ways to deal with Intel. Snipe scares me honestly because my X-Wings can't protect my high asset pilots like Jan. She is squishy without Escort. Even having a ship with snipe on the table will change how someone with Intel will fly.

I suggest trying snipe or other new toys from Wave 5 before making house rules to see how the game changes. Like the Flotillas the newness of Intel is taking many players off guard I believe but experimentation with different tactics has always been my go to, and yes, I have lost badly trying new tactics. But the experience is worth the effort.

This thread has been honestly an example of how a discussion should go. The author posted his thoughts and did admit it was an opinion and just wanted to make suggestions and he didn't shoot down those that made other suggestions. And the responses have been positive even when they didn't agree. Even I am like house rule it if you wish but I think trying out the suggestions given first would be better because if you play outside your house you will want to know how to deal with the rules as written.

But in three months from now we may look at Intel as a handy tool but one to use sparingly because player's may have the counters all worked out. So just another option available but not to be leaned on. (Exactly how I think all elements should be. It makes for a diverse game.)

I'm definitely very appreciative of all the great responses this thread has gotten! There are indeed ways of "countering" Intel, most just seem to have fallen into the Rebel scums lap. I'll try and get creative as an Imp player!

.

After all, we all know Captial ships can't really hurt fighters. Except the Raider, for the one turn it will get...

And a glad-2 demolisher. Don't forget that - average of two damage per activation to each squadron.

But really no capital ship will destroy a bomber ball on its own, just as no bomber will take a ship out on its own. You need to attack with multiple ships/bombers simultaneously on a given turn...and pick off the cripples with your squadron cover. Easier said than done of course, but it's where you need to start.

As far as the squads coming to you - I think it will be a significant advantage! First, the Rebel squadrons will be forced to come into your range piecemeal (I'm assuming two or three squadrons at a time). Which means they'll be activated, and you can jump on them with relative impunity - because you'll be able to see where you can position yourself to avoid the next wave of fighters coming in. And also - no Yavaris double taps for that turn, as they have to move....in fact likely for several turns in a row (speed 2, ya know).

And since you're going second, it's easier for you to let the Rebel ships come into your range...giving you an extra round of firing.

Theoretically, of course. I haven't faced your particular opponent, but I have faced similar lists.

Before I ultimately gave in and started using massed squadrons I tried a number of pure capital ship builds throwing two dice (two GSD-IIs with QLTs, an ISD with the same, a RDR with QLTs also and Ordnance Experts, Kallus, I think we even proxied flichette Torps). It did not do appreciative damage to the ball, and once I lost my first GSD with no casualties I knew the writing was on the wall. With no way to generate accuracy on my ships (no Sensor Teams or re-roll power), there was no way I could kill his flotillas before his bombers would finish off my ships. The Raider died without ever getting a shot off because I had to get it into range to attack, and it ended it's move at a time his bombers were ready.

I do take squadrons on the attack, but the interaction with escort and engagement means I cannot engage the bombers when I want to, and Jan or another Intel carrier moving in means those Bombers can disentangle themselves to converge on my squadron mothership, while the X-wings (typically 3) remain to engage my fighters. Anything less than ace balls and they punch through my generics pretty fast, especially with Toryn Farr (even helping against aces, I've observed). Placement is really critical, because I can sometimes find one squadron positioned ahead of others, and perfect for X-Wings to pounce on without reprisal (for instance targeting Dengar out of an escort bubble).

ANd from many times of firing blue dice at squadrons through many solo matches recently... I have zero faith in two dice doing a lot of damage to squarons, especially the rebels.

Re: Squadrons moving... there's a quandry that as an Empire player I'll try to illustrate. Our best carriers are 71 points minimum and I feel the best use out of our squadrons on the attack is 3+ fighter activation, so that's a minimum. After all to overcome Rebel HP we need to have more of our fighters attacking single targets to destroy them in a 2:1 trade (Only two TIE Fighters can destroy a single X-Wing. I think this is an axiom in the game, these Imperial to rebel ratios). The large amount of points Empire has to invest in successful carriers is countered on the rebel side by fitting in more flotillas and cheap ships to get more activations.

In other words, the Rebels can fit many GR-75s with one or two upgrades in the footprint of an ISD/VSD that Empire *must* need to win the squadron game. In effect, they can delay their activation a lot of times to force that Imperial carrier to activate, making the Empire lose the initative, and pull the game back into the Rebels' hands for Yavaris to activate if the Empire chooses to jump.

Otherwise it's a waiting and baiting game to see which squadron will jump first and what they can kill in that alpha strike. Imperial threat ranges are longer, but they need to kill their targets when they pounce, else they'll end up with wounded opponents in front of them and probably standing under the AA guns of the capital ships commanding the Rebel fighters.

Switching to Gozantis is one way around this problem, basically doing as the Rebels do by buying more activations to delay the fighter strike until you'e ready. However going to Gozantis means dropping your activations down to 2 and shedding Flight Controllers... which is a unique advantage to the Empire by being able to take on our "standard" carriers. I don't like feeding my fighters piecemeal into the enemy ball either, so when I play I like taking VSDs or ISDs for carriers.

Which leaves me often facing a 4-5 activation list with usually 2-4 activations of my own. I'm often out-activated, but that's because I insist on taking bigger ships with bigger fighter activations, in part because I have to, because I like the Flight Controller large fighter activation list. If fighters are the only way to crack the all-winning Rebel speedbump list I'm often facing, then I want those advantages to try levelling the playing field. It would also be nice if I had some backup things in place for my capital ship to give more advantages to the fighters I activate.

As an example of trying to find some of those helpers, I'm taking Cluster Bombs of all things for my ISD-I's defense. In the very least I hope I could remove one bomber squadron off the board before It could strike me again, presuming I don't die in the process. Those BCC stacked B-Wings are brutal.

I'm sorry if I ramble... I find I often work out a thought process by writing it out.

Maybe this will let you feel better as an imp:

Most squad heavy lists don't bid heavily.

So start by grabbing 1st player.

Then hit them hard with the classic Imp alpha, packing stuff like FC, Howl, Mithel, Dengar and TIE/Ints.

Ram Instigator in there with them late in the turn, keeping it covered the rest of your fleet.

Activate Instigator early and unleash OE (maybe even Kallus) hell. Then watch as they get countered/receive a second helping of massive blue dice.

Sounds easy, but with practice you can make it real.

It's not a perfect solution either, but it works.

I'm definitely very appreciative of all the great responses this thread has gotten! There are indeed ways of "countering" Intel, most just seem to have fallen into the Rebel scums lap. I'll try and get creative as an Imp player!

"Snipe" is a rarity for the Imperials; only Saber squadron has it, but it is a nice one! Snipe-4 AND Swarm for the bargain basement cost of 12 points. Don't forget your re-roll when Sniping Jan Ors while she's doing her Intel-y thing. And she shall not counter thee!

I'm definitely very appreciative of all the great responses this thread has gotten! There are indeed ways of "countering" Intel, most just seem to have fallen into the Rebel scums lap. I'll try and get creative as an Imp player!

"Snipe" is a rarity for the Imperials; only Saber squadron has it, but it is a nice one! Snipe-4 AND Swarm for the bargain basement cost of 12 points. Don't forget your re-roll when Sniping Jan Ors while she's doing her Intel-y thing. And she shall not counter thee!

I mean IG-88......

Frankly, I think all of the squadron effects shouldn't affect all squadrons within 1 of them. I'm looking at Rhymer, Intel, Nora Wexley etc. I strongly believe those affects should function like Hera Syndulla in that they should affect a limited amount of squadrons at all times. Having the AOE buff like they do is too strong and too open to abuse.

Frankly, I think all of the squadron effects shouldn't affect all squadrons within 1 of them. I'm looking at Rhymer, Intel, Nora Wexley etc. I strongly believe those affects should function like Hera Syndulla in that they should affect a limited amount of squadrons at all times. Having the AOE buff like they do is too strong and too open to abuse.

This is a good idea. But I think it can be hard to track every single thing. Just imagine a Nora Ball with Intel. How do you track which squads get the buff and which ones are Heavy?

Another alternative could be a permanent buff at the start of the game. So Nora could give 3 squads her crit effect, and Intel squads can ping 2 squads to gain Heavy. It's no where near balanced to fit in the game as of right now, but is an interesting thought.

Frankly, I think all of the squadron effects shouldn't affect all squadrons within 1 of them. I'm looking at Rhymer, Intel, Nora Wexley etc. I strongly believe those affects should function like Hera Syndulla in that they should affect a limited amount of squadrons at all times. Having the AOE buff like they do is too strong and too open to abuse.

This is a good idea. But I think it can be hard to track every single thing. Just imagine a Nora Ball with Intel. How do you track which squads get the buff and which ones are Heavy?

Another alternative could be a permanent buff at the start of the game. So Nora could give 3 squads her crit effect, and Intel squads can ping 2 squads to gain Heavy. It's no where near balanced to fit in the game as of right now, but is an interesting thought.

I've got a billion little tokens already from this game. I could easily put 2 of those squadron tokens you use to mark which squadrons are yours next to them if they got the buff that turn when the squadron that hands out the buff activates.

I just think if you're going to hand out basic game rules breaking effects that they should have an effective limit before it gets out of control because you can fit a lot of squadrons to be within 1 of that squadron. Plus when you are affecting a lot of squadrons with one squadron's affect at the same time, the points costs get way off.