I don't know if power creep is exactly the right term for it, but I think we are at risk of it with squadrons.

We've seen each wave bring in successively more rules and variations in the squadron space, and I've played a lot of games recently that were decided BY the squadron game, the ships were basically subject to what was happening in the squadron space. Not saying that's the only way games can go of course. but so much now eems to depend on timing my Raiders antisquad run right, or getting intel to Jonus so he can combo with Demo to nuke Bright Hope (yay!), or clobber jan at just the right time so Nora and her cronies are engaged so Demo can get away after..

But we have had Wave 0-1 - can ignore squads, they can't do enough damage

Wave 2 - Intel and rhymer ball but still something unreliable

Wave 3 - Flots, activations and bomber command

Wave 4 - Snipe, Nora and Jonus. Impact still to play out for Snipe, but Nora is going to be a mainstay.... And I'm losing previously undamaged ships to 4 Y wings these days!

So... I don't necessarily think anything has to be changed, but I see a risk in adding more squadron based abilities into the mix

What about a new Ship Upgrade that allows Crits to count as Hits instead of just a reroll? It would be more expensive obviously but on Gunboats why not? Maybe a new upgrade type for new ships like the Lancer Class Frigate? (Of course Lancer has now been taken as a class type with the new Lancer Pursuit Class, but they can think of something.)

Imps only got one snipe because they already have "sniping" bombers

God Rhymer. Nasty business there and is definitely still a complaint from many on the boards. Being mostly a Rebels player (I dabble in both) Rhymer has been a fear of mine for a while and his Rhymer Ball dominated the tournament scene before the release of Waves 4 and 5. But even then I was about how to deal with him on an in game level and never thought his rules should be changed. And Intel only made his Ball even more deadly. But I adapted.

So what in game solutions are there for Imperials? (Besides using Rhymer and Intel yourself?)

Its hard, because I'm mostly a Rebel player - but this is what has worked against me:

You have Gunnery Slots on most of your Ships... That is very quickly pressed into Ruthless Strategists, where you can either sacrifice a point of health from something that is tehre to die anyway (TIE Fighter) to do a point of Damage on something really important ... Or Soak up with your Cheap Hull Points (TIE Bombers) to do much the same.

Ruthless Strats cares not wether you hit the Target... Only that you attack it... So its useful even out of the Side-Arc of a Victory with its single Blue die... Hit or Not, Care not. Point for Point Jan down, completely ignoring her Braces...

Again, on its own, not a solution - but it forms part of a solution framework......

agreed

Antiship batteries do a lot of work over the course of the game,

Aoe like that bypasses the big rebel defense of Jan escort blob

Combine with other aoe effects, such as mithel, and you really put the hurt on them intel or no

I don't know if power creep is exactly the right term for it, but I think we are at risk of it with squadrons.

We've seen each wave bring in successively more rules and variations in the squadron space, and I've played a lot of games recently that were decided BY the squadron game, the ships were basically subject to what was happening in the squadron space. Not saying that's the only way games can go of course. but so much now eems to depend on timing my Raiders antisquad run right, or getting intel to Jonus so he can combo with Demo to nuke Bright Hope (yay!), or clobber jan at just the right time so Nora and her cronies are engaged so Demo can get away after..

But we have had Wave 0-1 - can ignore squads, they can't do enough damage

Wave 2 - Intel and rhymer ball but still something unreliable

Wave 3 - Flots, activations and bomber command

Wave 4 - Snipe, Nora and Jonus. Impact still to play out for Snipe, but Nora is going to be a mainstay.... And I'm losing previously undamaged ships to 4 Y wings these days!

So... I don't necessarily think anything has to be changed, but I see a risk in adding more squadron based abilities into the mix

So many variables are still in play and I still don't see one factor being the dominant one as of yet.

Still remember that Squadrons have always been apart of Armada and you get a number of them in the starter box, so they are still a major part of the game. But it is still your Ship Movements and Commands that determines the winner of the game, not which Squadrons you bring.

When I watch games in my area and the tournament games on YouTube I see most games both opponents bring Squadrons but the game is still decided on hiw the ships are flown. But that is just my observation.

What about a new Ship Upgrade that allows Crits to count as Hits instead of just a reroll? It would be more expensive obviously but on Gunboats why not? Maybe a new upgrade type for new ships like the Lancer Class Frigate? (Of course Lancer has now been taken as a class type with the new Lancer Pursuit Class, but they can think of something.)

The "Dad of a 3 year Old" in me says "No. No you don't get New Toys until you play with the Ones you have!"

Jokingly, of course... But that seems to be an issue I see - again, from my perspective as a Rebel Player - is that the Imperials have a few options, but those options have been dismissed (Point Defense Reroute / Clusters / Quad Laser Turrets) or rendered irrelevant, due to other upgrades (Ruthless Strats because of Gunnery Teams, Quad lasers for other Offensive Retros)......

There are options, and I feel most - Not all , but most of the Imperial Players I've played, who have also had trouble or complained about my Rebel Squadrons - have not completely explored what is available to them at the moment...

That's all.

Snipe is still subject to Escorts, so I don't feel that's "the answer" when trying to punch out Jan. Sabers and IG-88 cannot oneshot Jan (at least not without significant backup). Jan has two brace tokens. Unless Sabers roll two accuracy and 4 hits, they cannot kill Jan. That requires 6 dice, meaning Howlrunner has to be there, and the roll has to be perfect. IG-88 on the other hand, even with Flight Controllers, can't block Jan's second Brace token.

The chances increase if you start cutting down the escorts and forcing Jan to blow her brace tokens, at least. But that means cutting down all of those escorts, and some of them (Wedge) may have brace tokens of their own.

What about a new Ship Upgrade that allows Crits to count as Hits instead of just a reroll? It would be more expensive obviously but on Gunboats why not? Maybe a new upgrade type for new ships like the Lancer Class Frigate? (Of course Lancer has now been taken as a class type with the new Lancer Pursuit Class, but they can think of something.)

This is what QLT should have been, IMO.

I put this together as the primary anti squad component for a new five ship Ozzel list I'm tweaking and (hopefully) can get onto the table soon. The idea is to activate the three non-rogue squads with the raider and hopefully be able to position them all perfectly so that I can nuke Jan or Dengar in one activation, thereby pinning the remaining squads with my aces while the raider moves into position to flack the bombers in the following turn. IG is there if the Intel needs a finishing shot, or to hunt down a generic on his own if there are multiple sources. Thoughts?

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Flechette Torpedoes ( 3 points)

= 61 total ship cost

1 IG-88 ( 21 points)

1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 Saber Squadron ( 12 points)

I think FFG should have had another generic for Imps with Snipe, and then errata Snipe so it can't be used while engaged. This way both sides have the option for it, but you still need to be smart with placement and engagment.

Snipe is still subject to Escorts, so I don't feel that's "the answer" when trying to punch out Jan.

Snipe is only subject to Escorts if the Escorts are engaged with the Snipers.

I put this together as the primary anti squad component for a new five ship Ozzel list I'm tweaking and (hopefully) can get onto the table soon. The idea is to activate the three non-rogue squads with the raider and hopefully be able to position them all perfectly so that I can nuke Jan or Dengar in one activation, thereby pinning the remaining squads with my aces while the raider moves into position to flack the bombers in the following turn. IG is there if the Intel needs a finishing shot, or to hunt down a generic on his own if there are multiple sources. Thoughts?

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Flechette Torpedoes ( 3 points)

= 61 total ship cost

1 IG-88 ( 21 points)

1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 Saber Squadron ( 12 points)

+ Jendon, if that is too step on top -Howl + Flight Controllers/Jendon...but maybe you don't have room or carrier for FC. In that case Jendon! Saber or IG twice.

I like Jendon but his lack of strategic angers me so much that I'll doubt I will ever really take him... this is the list as a whole right now, hoping between the alpha to kill Intel, raider flechettes, and some Glad 2 demo style AA I could handle the squads on my own. The other option is the drop the bid and kallus for Chirpy to proc mithel as long as he's alive and reposition Saber as needed.

Minimal aces

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 384/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Most Wanted

Defense Objective: Jamming Barrier

Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Flechette Torpedoes ( 3 points)

= 61 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)

- Demolisher ( 10 points)

- Intel Officer ( 7 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 96 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)

- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)

= 59 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)

- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)

= 59 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)

- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)

- Comms Net ( 2 points)

= 45 total ship cost

1 IG-88 ( 21 points)

1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 Saber Squadron ( 12 points)

I put this together as the primary anti squad component for a new five ship Ozzel list I'm tweaking and (hopefully) can get onto the table soon. The idea is to activate the three non-rogue squads with the raider and hopefully be able to position them all perfectly so that I can nuke Jan or Dengar in one activation, thereby pinning the remaining squads with my aces while the raider moves into position to flack the bombers in the following turn. IG is there if the Intel needs a finishing shot, or to hunt down a generic on his own if there are multiple sources. Thoughts?

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Flechette Torpedoes ( 3 points)

= 61 total ship cost

1 IG-88 ( 21 points)

1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 Saber Squadron ( 12 points)

+ Jendon, if that is too step on top -Howl + Flight Controllers/Jendon...but maybe you don't have room or carrier for FC. In that case Jendon! Saber or IG twice.

The raider is the pocket carrier for flight controllers, with EHB and a token I can activate all three for the alpha strike at the intel

Snipe is still subject to Escorts, so I don't feel that's "the answer" when trying to punch out Jan.

Snipe is only subject to Escorts if the Escorts are engaged with the Snipers.

I think this is true, is this true?

The text of Escort is the following:

"Squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack squadrons that lack ESCORT unless performing a COUNTER attack."

Snipe is still subject to Escorts, so I don't feel that's "the answer" when trying to punch out Jan.

Snipe is only subject to Escorts if the Escorts are engaged with the Snipers.

I think this is true, is this true?

Squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack squadrons that lack Escort unless performing a Counter attack.

So unless there's an Escort squadron at distance 2, Snipe is shut down the moment the Sniper is engaged by an Escort squadron, as Snipe is an attack on a squadron.

Perhaps prohibitively expensive, but... Tarkin + Ruthless Strategists + Engineering Techs. Spam engineering tokens. You can recover the lost hull from RS every turn.

Less expensive: Motti + Ruthless Strategists. You get 3 "freebie" uses of RT when using friendly big ships as bait.

29 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Perhaps prohibitively expensive, but... Tarkin + Ruthless Strategists + Engineering Techs. Spam engineering tokens. You can recover the lost hull from RS every turn.

Less expensive: Motti + Ruthless Strategists. You get 3 "freebie" uses of RT when using friendly big ships as bait.

Ruthless Strategists chips away at squadrons not ships. You cannot recover squadron hull outside of the station. Motti does not effect squadrons. Not sure what you were getting at or where the misunderstanding on which card was but hopefully I addressed it?

I wouldnt touch intel. I'd introduce the 'interceptor'keyword with the effect: enemy squadrons with bomber keyword at distance 1 lose bomber keyword. Id slap this on A-wings and Tie interceptors at the moment.

Also, sort of fun/nieche upgrade, an ewar thing/scrambler: range 1-3, exhaust, treat selected enemy squadron as if its textbox were empty. 2-3 points, fleet support upgrade

Just change Intel to say something like Hera Syndulla : "At the start of the squadron phase choose up to (x) enemy squadrons at distance 1-2, those squadrons gain (keyword) Heavy until the end of the round."