Frankly, I think all of the squadron effects shouldn't affect all squadrons within 1 of them. I'm looking at Rhymer, Intel, Nora Wexley etc. I strongly believe those affects should function like Hera Syndulla in that they should affect a limited amount of squadrons at all times. Having the AOE buff like they do is too strong and too open to abuse.

This is a good idea. But I think it can be hard to track every single thing. Just imagine a Nora Ball with Intel. How do you track which squads get the buff and which ones are Heavy?

Another alternative could be a permanent buff at the start of the game. So Nora could give 3 squads her crit effect, and Intel squads can ping 2 squads to gain Heavy. It's no where near balanced to fit in the game as of right now, but is an interesting thought.

I've got a billion little tokens already from this game. I could easily put 2 of those squadron tokens you use to mark which squadrons are yours next to them if they got the buff that turn when the squadron that hands out the buff activates.

I just think if you're going to hand out basic game rules breaking effects that they should have an effective limit before it gets out of control because you can fit a lot of squadrons to be within 1 of that squadron. Plus when you are affecting a lot of squadrons with one squadron's affect at the same time, the points costs get way off.

The issue with giving out tokens is the game gets crowded. Just a mash up of 10 squads is hard to measure range 1 for, and trying to mark those squads can be a pain.

I try to keep my squads in 2 groups so I always have a free one to do what ever they want. This limits the abilities of some squads, but I have yet to go up against Nora. I do not look forward to it.

What about Counterintelligence?

I.e., if you have an intel ship at range 1 of an opposing player's intel ship, the Intels effectively cancel one another.

....yeah no, that's a horrid idea

What about Counterintelligence?

I.e., if you have an intel ship at range 1 of an opposing player's intel ship, the Intels effectively cancel one another.

....yeah no, that's a horrid idea

I'd pay a chunk of points for a Squadron (possibly unique) that had something like:

White Noise:

Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy Keywords.

Make it Chunky. Make it Slow. Just a big E/W Tank.

Of course, it would be... interesting to try to work out what happened when you brought 2 of them together (if unique, in mirror-match) unless you added an exception for itself, too...

(Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy, Non-White Noise Keywords.)

These last few posts are basically the gist of what I was getting at when I made this thread. The distance one AOE is HUGE, which (I believe) made it much more difficult to pin bombers than the developers had anticipated.

And ya as Robert and Gink have noted, I think the best anti-Intel right now for Imps is Saber, IG-88, and mauler. You just have to really hope you roll well as you only get a single reroll on 2/3rds of the attack.

I never really understood what Intel means in this game. Does the Intel ship scan every enemy squad at range 1? How does it give them Heavy? Bombers with Heavy make sense cuz they are slower and less agile, but how does Intel do this to other ships? It doesn't make any sense. So basically Intel is unthematic and should be removed from the game.

What about Counterintelligence?

I.e., if you have an intel ship at range 1 of an opposing player's intel ship, the Intels effectively cancel one another.

....yeah no, that's a horrid idea

I'd pay a chunk of points for a Squadron (possibly unique) that had something like:

White Noise:

Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy Keywords.

Make it Chunky. Make it Slow. Just a big E/W Tank.

Of course, it would be... interesting to try to work out what happened when you brought 2 of them together (if unique, in mirror-match) unless you added an exception for itself, too...

(Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy, Non-White Noise Keywords.)

Just change the wording on it from a keyword to a persistent effect a la Ketsu.

What about Counterintelligence?

I.e., if you have an intel ship at range 1 of an opposing player's intel ship, the Intels effectively cancel one another.

....yeah no, that's a horrid idea

I'd pay a chunk of points for a Squadron (possibly unique) that had something like:

White Noise:

Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy Keywords.

Make it Chunky. Make it Slow. Just a big E/W Tank.

Of course, it would be... interesting to try to work out what happened when you brought 2 of them together (if unique, in mirror-match) unless you added an exception for itself, too...

(Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy, Non-White Noise Keywords.)

Just change the wording on it from a keyword to a persistent effect a la Ketsu.

Yeah, that'd be the best way... I started off making it non-unique, then realised how much of a Pain it would be, partially rewrote my concept, then posted it before actually completely rewriting, because I just got my Kiddo out the door for School and I want to play X-Com 2 for the first time since November.

X-Com 2

Are you doing Long War 2?

What about Counterintelligence?

I.e., if you have an intel ship at range 1 of an opposing player's intel ship, the Intels effectively cancel one another.

....yeah no, that's a horrid idea

I'd pay a chunk of points for a Squadron (possibly unique) that had something like:

White Noise:

Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy Keywords.

Make it Chunky. Make it Slow. Just a big E/W Tank.

Of course, it would be... interesting to try to work out what happened when you brought 2 of them together (if unique, in mirror-match) unless you added an exception for itself, too...

(Other Squadrons at Distance 1 Lose all Non-Heavy, Non-White Noise Keywords.)

Just change the wording on it from a keyword to a persistent effect a la Ketsu.

Yeah, that'd be the best way... I started off making it non-unique, then realised how much of a Pain it would be, partially rewrote my concept, then posted it before actually completely rewriting, because I just got my Kiddo out the door for School and I want to play X-Com 2 for the first time since November.

Interestingly, I just started playing X-Com 2 as well. Got the Long War mods off Steam and I;m going to try to do a legendary iron man game. One of the mods let's you increase squad size, so I think that might actually make it playable.

I never really understood what Intel means in this game. Does the Intel ship scan every enemy squad at range 1? How does it give them Heavy? Bombers with Heavy make sense cuz they are slower and less agile, but how does Intel do this to other ships? It doesn't make any sense. So basically Intel is unthematic and should be removed from the game.

Ohh, ooh I can answer this one!

It doesn't necessarily do anything to the Opponent.

Essentially, "Engagement", or rather, being locked down in an engagement is because you have to stop what you are doing, and go, "Those guys might shoot at me... Prepare for evasive maneuvers..." or "Turn to engage." or whatever. Effectively, its Battlefield uncertainty that makes them stop what they are doing and prepare to shoot.

What intel is... Is, as you say, the Intel Ship providing them that battlefield clarity that lets them no. "Enemy at bearing 23 mark 4, closing to three. No threat, continue on target..."

It gives them the clarity and battlefield positioning to not be tied down by someone who might be attempting to stop them - and gives them the information they need to avoid the enemies who are attempting to pin them in place.

I never really understood what Intel means in this game. Does the Intel ship scan every enemy squad at range 1? How does it give them Heavy? Bombers with Heavy make sense cuz they are slower and less agile, but how does Intel do this to other ships? It doesn't make any sense. So basically Intel is unthematic and should be removed from the game.

Ohh, ooh I can answer this one!

It doesn't necessarily do anything to the Opponent.

Essentially, "Engagement", or rather, being locked down in an engagement is because you have to stop what you are doing, and go, "Those guys might shoot at me... Prepare for evasive maneuvers..." or "Turn to engage." or whatever. Effectively, its Battlefield uncertainty that makes them stop what they are doing and prepare to shoot.

What intel is... Is, as you say, the Intel Ship providing them that battlefield clarity that lets them no. "Enemy at bearing 23 mark 4, closing to three. No threat, continue on target..."

It gives them the clarity and battlefield positioning to not be tied down by someone who might be attempting to stop them - and gives them the information they need to avoid the enemies who are attempting to pin them in place.

This is an excellent answer.

I never really understood what Intel means in this game. Does the Intel ship scan every enemy squad at range 1? How does it give them Heavy? Bombers with Heavy make sense cuz they are slower and less agile, but how does Intel do this to other ships? It doesn't make any sense. So basically Intel is unthematic and should be removed from the game.

Ohh, ooh I can answer this one!

It doesn't necessarily do anything to the Opponent.

Essentially, "Engagement", or rather, being locked down in an engagement is because you have to stop what you are doing, and go, "Those guys might shoot at me... Prepare for evasive maneuvers..." or "Turn to engage." or whatever. Effectively, its Battlefield uncertainty that makes them stop what they are doing and prepare to shoot.

What intel is... Is, as you say, the Intel Ship providing them that battlefield clarity that lets them no. "Enemy at bearing 23 mark 4, closing to three. No threat, continue on target..."

It gives them the clarity and battlefield positioning to not be tied down by someone who might be attempting to stop them - and gives them the information they need to avoid the enemies who are attempting to pin them in place.

This is an excellent answer.

Thank you.

In short - If you Equate "Heavy" to "This Squadron can be Avoided." - It makes MUCH MORE SENSE

Honestly if I could go back in time I'd advise FFG to reword Intel to "all friendly squadrons at distance 1 gain Grit," which I think would be a stellar compromise and still achieve the goal of "piecemeal losers are insufficient resistance to stop this pain train" without going quite so far as it does presently. Something like Intel was definitely needed, however, given how easy it was to slow down bomber squadrons in wave one.

As it is, however, I'm not sure what exactly can be done about it.

I'm not a fan of any solution that involves more squadron keywords for three reasons:

1) that means buying even more squadrons when we've already hit squadron saturation quite recently with wave 5

2) presumably it would make anti-squadron defense more expensive and squadron-dependent due to the need to bring along what I would assume would be a support squadron

3) silver bullet fixes in every game I've ever played create extremely variable metas where A becomes prominent enough and is then countered by B which is used enough until A becomes less prevalent in response at which point B is less necessary at which point A sneaks back in until B returns and you get to playing a Russian roulette form of rock-paper-scissors at competitive events. Back when I played Android: Netrunner this was a HUGE problem with the game.

Abilities on ships seem similarly awkward to implement. What kind of upgrade would it be? What exactly would it do? How close would the ship need to be? How useless would the upgrade be if it wasn't against Intel? Etc.

As it stands, I think the best hope for any kind of Intel toning down is an errata (again, I'd like for it to hand out Grit if possible like I said above) and that's always a bit awkward and thus unlikely.

Honestly if I could go back in time I'd advise FFG to reword Intel to "all friendly squadrons at distance 1 gain Grit," which I think would be a stellar compromise and still achieve the goal of "piecemeal losers are insufficient resistance to stop this pain train" without going quite so far as it does presently. Something like Intel was definitely needed, however, given how easy it was to slow down bomber squadrons in wave one.

Unfortunately, Grit - even Grit to Bombers - Still basically stops them dead, unless they have the Movement to escape the single squad of TIE Fighters that are defending the Ship they want to bomb....

Unless we're also errata-ing grit at the same time...

::shrug::

Honestly if I could go back in time I'd advise FFG to reword Intel to "all friendly squadrons at distance 1 gain Grit," which I think would be a stellar compromise and still achieve the goal of "piecemeal losers are insufficient resistance to stop this pain train" without going quite so far as it does presently. Something like Intel was definitely needed, however, given how easy it was to slow down bomber squadrons in wave one.

Unfortunately, Grit - even Grit to Bombers - Still basically stops them dead, unless they have the Movement to escape the single squad of TIE Fighters that are defending the Ship they want to bomb....

Unless we're also errata-ing grit at the same time...

::shrug::

It is definitely far more restrictive, I do not disagree. That kind of errata would allow squadrons set up on CAP near ships to effectively keep that hull zone safe because Grit only affects movement and doesn't make any special allowances for attacks. Bombers would need to hop to a new hull zone.

Alternatively, if we're looking at errata, one could leave Intel as is and change Escort slightly to "squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack any target without Escort unless performing a Counter attack." This would leave the squadron-on-squadron ramifications of Escort completely untouched but would allow Escort squadrons to stop bombers from attacking capital ships while engaging them, regardless of if they were Heavy or not. Granted Intel would allow those enemy squadrons to still move away, but that imposes additional restrictions and complications on the Intel swarm.

Rather than tone it down, the better solution from a marketing standpoint is to produce new effects that counter the strategy behind "Intel" (note the introduction of "Snipe"). If you couple that with making older ships/abilities more viable in the new emerging meta, you have a nice recipe for success: the company is introducing new products that people will want, while still maintaining the viability of previous waves.

That appears to be what FFG has been attempting. Rather than change rules, produce new products that teach old ships new tricks.

Can't forget IG-88, either.

not sure if brought up in these 4 pages, but if intel is that big a deal you could always jsut run heavy chunky ships and ruthless strategists

don't care about intel then!

I agree, Snipa...

Of course, this weeds right into "what" needs to be done, and "how much" needs to be done, or even if "anything" needs to be done...

I'm still waiting to see how things evolve... But my Wave 5 has become tougher on my (Rebel) squadrons with Defenders out there now... Of course, I only have regionals to go by, but dang .

Well I still state Intel Squadrons are fragile and need protection, and Snipe gets past Intel. Can someone explain why this is not in the discussion? Jan may have Brace but she will fold fast when focused on, and that's 19 points in the hole. Intel has absolutely changed the Bomber game along with BCC but we are already seeing ways to mitigate its power but that doesn't seem to be part of most of the discussion.

Well I still state Intel Squadrons are fragile and need protection, and Snipe gets past Intel. Can someone explain why this is not in the discussion? Jan may have Brace but she will fold fast when focused on, and that's 19 points in the hole. Intel has absolutely changed the Bomber game along with BCC but we are already seeing ways to mitigate its power but that doesn't seem to be part of most of the discussion.

Honestly - I think its because Snipe isn't universally available in any numbers to both sides... Its only part of the solution that needs to be entailed...

If you're a Rebel, sure, Snipe certainly helps against the like of Jan and Dengar....

But the Imperials only have snipe on Saber Squadron (that being said, its a Nice Snipe)... But saying the solution boils down to "Saber and IG-88" is restrictive...

People are looking for something a little more... Universal. Especailly in light of the Corellian Campaign, where they may not be available to you - and your target isn't Jan, but just Generics protected by Escort and such...

If snipe isnt it, you have to start looking to shipbased anti squadron to just kill them while they kill you

Well I still state Intel Squadrons are fragile and need protection, and Snipe gets past Intel. Can someone explain why this is not in the discussion? Jan may have Brace but she will fold fast when focused on, and that's 19 points in the hole. Intel has absolutely changed the Bomber game along with BCC but we are already seeing ways to mitigate its power but that doesn't seem to be part of most of the discussion.

Honestly - I think its because Snipe isn't universally available in any numbers to both sides... Its only part of the solution that needs to be entailed...

If you're a Rebel, sure, Snipe certainly helps against the like of Jan and Dengar....

But the Imperials only have snipe on Saber Squadron (that being said, its a Nice Snipe)... But saying the solution boils down to "Saber and IG-88" is restrictive...

People are looking for something a little more... Universal. Especailly in light of the Corellian Campaign, where they may not be available to you - and your target isn't Jan, but just Generics protected by Escort and such...

Imps only got one snipe because they already have "sniping" bombers

Imps only got one snipe because they already have "sniping" bombers

So what in game solutions are there for Imperials? (Besides using Rhymer and Intel yourself?)

Imps only got one snipe because they already have "sniping" bombers

God Rhymer. Nasty business there and is definitely still a complaint from many on the boards. Being mostly a Rebels player (I dabble in both) Rhymer has been a fear of mine for a while and his Rhymer Ball dominated the tournament scene before the release of Waves 4 and 5. But even then I was about how to deal with him on an in game level and never thought his rules should be changed. And Intel only made his Ball even more deadly. But I adapted.

So what in game solutions are there for Imperials? (Besides using Rhymer and Intel yourself?)

Its hard, because I'm mostly a Rebel player - but this is what has worked against me:

You have Gunnery Slots on most of your Ships... That is very quickly pressed into Ruthless Strategists, where you can either sacrifice a point of health from something that is tehre to die anyway (TIE Fighter) to do a point of Damage on something really important ... Or Soak up with your Cheap Hull Points (TIE Bombers) to do much the same.

Ruthless Strats cares not wether you hit the Target... Only that you attack it... So its useful even out of the Side-Arc of a Victory with its single Blue die... Hit or Not, Care not. Point for Point Jan down, completely ignoring her Braces...

Again, on its own, not a solution - but it forms part of a solution framework......