The TIE fighter's the balance benchmark to which FFG attempts to calibrate the rest of the game. When the TIE fighter gets pushed out then FFG tends to look at nerfing rather than buffing. Otherwise we'd get into an endless loop of fix leapfrog.

And yes, swarms are very demanding of pilots; that's why swarm flying should get a reward in the TIEs ability to compete on the mat.

Overpowering difficult ships isn't a good way to achieve balance.

I get your point Blue Five; but the contrary point is: Overpowering simple ships isn't a good way to achieve balance.

That's not a counterpoint, that's just replacing one word with an antonym.

What I'm saying is you can't factor player skill into ship balance. A TIE swarm is harder to fly than a fat turret list: a low skill player will probably have an easier time being successful with the two ship list than a seven ship list as there are fewer parts to think about and fewer decisions to make. You could fix this by powering up the TIE fighter so that the low skill player's ineptitude with the TIE swarm is balanced out by the TIE swarm's greater power. If you do this you create the same problem at the other end: a high skill player with a TIE swarm will now dominate a high skill player with a fat turret.

I disagree, it is a counterpoint; it is clearly an argument, idea, or theme used to create a contrast with the main element. Your main element or theory was that "powering up" the TIE fighter would be bad for the state and balance of the game. This very possibly could be true. My counterpoint is: it is just as arguable that the introduction of ships and abilities like Turrets, TLTs and amazingly powerful flying freighters was a direct "powering up" of simple to play and move ships that was actually bad for the state and balance of the game especially in regards to the iconic and originally formitable TIE swarm.

I disagree, it is a counterpoint; it is clearly an argument, idea, or theme used to create a contrast with the main element. Your main element or theory was that "powering up" the TIE fighter would be bad for the state and balance of the game. This very possibly could be true. My counterpoint is: it is just as arguable that the introduction of ships and abilities like Turrets, TLTs and amazingly powerful flying freighters was a direct "powering up" of simple to play and move ships that was actually bad for the state and balance of the game especially in regards to the iconic and originally formitable TIE swarm.

No, that's a different point entirely. Saying that the TIE swarm needs to be buffed because other ships are more powerful than it is very different to what you originally said: that TIE swarm needs to be buffed because it's harder to fly.

"And yes, swarms are very demanding of pilots; that's why swarm flying should get a reward in the TIEs ability to compete on the mat."

When discussing balance you need to cast aside player skill entirely: assume the list will be played to its optimum. Difficulty of use is independent from balance state.

Edit: This goes to StayOnTheLeader of course

I'm curious though. You did quite well back in August with 5 TIEs. What changed?

Dengaroo was already around, x7 Defenders too.

HotR, Fangfighter and Ventress are new. But are they the problem?

There was virtually zero crossover between TIE swarms and /x7. My last big tournament with Swarm was UK Nats, which coincidentally also was the first big event I saw Triple Defenders do well in (they also made top 8, I think maybe top 4), Canadian and Aussie Nats rapidly followed then Defenders were everywhere and swarms were just gone. Dengaroo was certainly a problem for most swarms by then, and probably the beginning of the end, but mine was a little different to most swarms and actually had good game vs Dengaroo.

Defenders live in a similar jousting space to swarms, they just do it better and more easily and with fewer natural predators. Most things that people now play to beat Defenders happen to beat TIE swarms twice as hard just by happy accident.

If you just imagine playing a TIE Swarm at the moment there's virtually none of the current popular lists that you actually want to play against. Maybe Fangaroo, they won't appreciate Crack Shots much.

That's very interesting. I played my swarm until the end of August with plenty Defenders in different variations (2 Defender+Bombershuttle, 2 Defender+Carnor, 3 Defender, 2 Defender+Palp) and it didn't go well. By the way, coincidentally I had built nearly the exact same list as you did. (edit: Then I saw your blogpost and adjusted it for the last tournament)

Now I switch back and forth between Dash/Miranda and the A-Wing swarm, 4 or 5 with Snapshot+Juke&AT or Snapshot+Crackshot

Imperial Veteran

Imperial Only

Title

0 points

Your upgrade bar gains the EPT upgrade icon. You cannot equip this upgrade if you already have the EPT icon or your pilot skill is "4" or lower.

Done.

I would do it a bit different.

Imperial Veteran

Title

0 pts

Imperial non-unique pilot only

You may equip an EPT at -2 pts

Basically it lets you upgrade Black Squads to whatever kind of unique ace you want. The EPT becomes like their special ability. Offering a wide range of EPT's for 0 - 1 pt.

I disagree, it is a counterpoint; it is clearly an argument, idea, or theme used to create a contrast with the main element. Your main element or theory was that "powering up" the TIE fighter would be bad for the state and balance of the game. This very possibly could be true. My counterpoint is: it is just as arguable that the introduction of ships and abilities like Turrets, TLTs and amazingly powerful flying freighters was a direct "powering up" of simple to play and move ships that was actually bad for the state and balance of the game especially in regards to the iconic and originally formitable TIE swarm.

No, that's a different point entirely. Saying that the TIE swarm needs to be buffed because other ships are more powerful than it is very different to what you originally said: that TIE swarm needs to be buffed because it's harder to fly. "And yes, swarms are very demanding of pilots; that's why swarm flying should get a reward in the TIEs ability to compete on the mat." When discussing balance you need to cast aside player skill entirely: assume the list will be played to its optimum. Difficulty of use is independent from balance state.

We'll just agree to disagree that I made my counterpoint because, "this bickering is pointless."

The reason for the OP is that TIE swarms were once at or near the top of the food chain in cannon and in the game. Due to designers wanting the game to survive and flourish, they had to design ships with mechanics that were interesting and competitive so people would buy it and they can keep the goose laying the golden eggs. However, power-creep is inevitable because few people want to purchase the next Wave of ships if they can't quickly see that they can defeat their next opponent with them. Therefore, Swarms have been buffeted downward by ships that fly better and easier than TIEs (Jumps), put out guaranteed damage (TLTs), or shrug off two dice attacks (make your list here). Sure the "difficulty to use" the ship is clearly "independent from the balance of state." Obvious. But when you have an expert flying TIEs and an Expert flying Dengaroo.....what's the math? Pretty clear from my observations and notes. Every Wave creates an immediate buff to new ships over the Core ships. It's marketing. It's Simple.

The OP is looking for ideas to even up the playing field a bit.

It's refreshing that the request for design ideas isn't tired like the ones for the Punisher, Keraxeraxerax or the tired, endless moaning and groaning about T-65s post AI buff.

Great thread......I'm loving the ideas. Refreshing guys; thanks!

Technically, TIE/gt has a missile launcher, not a bomb rack.

Yeah, but that doesn't make a lot of sense given that it's a ground targeting bomber.

Sure it does. We use missiles to hit ground targets all the time and in fact there are missiles which can only be shot at the ground ATG.

Technically though, you are right in that like the esteemed Gunboat, it's a multi-purpose launcher. So you could make it [bomb] or [Missile]

Imperial Veteran

Imperial Only

Title

0 points

Your upgrade bar gains the EPT upgrade icon. You cannot equip this upgrade if you already have the EPT icon or your pilot skill is "4" or lower.

Done.

I would do it a bit different.

Imperial Veteran

Title

0 pts

Imperial non-unique pilot only

You may equip an EPT at -2 pts

Basically it lets you upgrade Black Squads to whatever kind of unique ace you want. The EPT becomes like their special ability. Offering a wide range of EPT's for 0 - 1 pt.

That's btw also my idea for an X-Wing fix by the way. Don't just flat out decrease the base cost, but decrease the upgrade (EPT) cost

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Errata the X7 title. Kill a few birds with one stone.

TIE/x7 (0 points)

TIE only. Imperial Only.

Your upgrade bar loses the [CANNON] and [MISSILE] upgrade icons.

After executing a 3-, 4-, or 5-speed maneuver, you may perform a free evade action.

I would not want to see this. Games last long enough as it is and giving every Imperial small ship a free evade every turn would make it worse. Plus that would make them immune to blocking since you could PTL off the evade action. An offensive buff without increasing red dice seems the best solution to me.

Title: TIE

'This ship costs 12 points. Twelve.'

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Errata the X7 title. Kill a few birds with one stone.

TIE/x7 (0 points)

TIE only. Imperial Only.

Your upgrade bar loses the [CANNON] and [MISSILE] upgrade icons.

After executing a 3-, 4-, or 5-speed maneuver, you may perform a free evade action.

I would not want to see this. Games last long enough as it is and giving every Imperial small ship a free evade every turn would make it worse. Plus that would make them immune to blocking since you could PTL off the evade action. An offensive buff without increasing red dice seems the best solution to me.

You aren't giving every ship an evade every round. Only Defenders and ships with Pattern Analyzer will be getting tokens when they pull a K-Turn or S-Loop. Without the ability to flip around, having to go fast every round to get the free evade action is going to mean that ships aren't able to get behind things and stay behind them. Consistently getting the evade token will mean that ships are having to break off and come back around (which seems like what you see TIE Fighters doing a lot of in the movies).

It don't see a huge problem with ships using PTL off of the evade action for some protection from blocking (they'd still lose an action) because outside of straight maneuvers, there isn't any green for clearing stress at speed three. Taking Mk II. Engines will help with this a bit, but that means that you aren't taking Autothrusters or Stealth Device.

Maybe I'm pulling in more trouble, but what if we looked at the Core/Cannon ships anew. What if there was a title card for the beloved X-Wing and TIE Fighter that gave pure squads a distinct boost when flying in formation? I guess it would be akin to a fighter wing upgrade. Strength in numbers as the more of the squad you have, the more powerful the bump (as in keeping mods and add-ons down, like elite pilot mods and the like).

Mod: Academy Fodder. Subtract -1 from your total squad points for each Tie Fighter in your squadron. You must take an imperial only tie title. (may need an "up to" limit)

Imperial only title-

First Flight, 0pts- reduce your pilot skill by 1 until you make an attack

Callsign, 0pts- if you and an enemy ship destroy each other during simultaneous fire, cancel all but 1 damage to your ship

Academy Swarmer, 1pt- when attacking, if another friendly ship with this title has the defender in arc, focus tokens only modify a single focus result

Swarms revenge, 1pt- if another friendly tie fighter at range 1 is destroyed...snapshot

Would allow you to shave a few points off your mini swarm or fit in a more potent pocket ace into a traditional swarm.

I would also like to see some more named/call signed ties. Seems like a pretty obvious choice to include 1 in pretty much every ace/most wanted/epic expansion just to have the flood of tie options this game deserves. Probably cheaper than continuing to add TLs and ID tokens to every single pack ever.

How About something like this.

Tie Fighters Only:

Advanced Combat Trained

1 pts

When being attacked in primary arc and and at least 1 other tie fighter is in range 1 of the target and could also be targeted. You may change up to 2 blank results to evades. (Autothrusters from a friend)

"Born to die" 3pt

When this ship would be destroyed by an opponents ship you may perform a primary attack against the attacking ship

Because a tie fighter pilot screaming and hurling his ship guns blazing into the guy who killed him sounds awesome

I think unique titles would be better like Black 4 and Obsidian 2.

BTL-A4 and Royal Guard TIE are not buffs. They allow more options but they are not priced below their worth. The same was true of A-wing Test Pilot on release although the subsequent release of 0 point EPTs has made its current state arguable.

These were absolutely intended as buffs. The Royal Guard title and A-Wing Test Pilot were both designed to take underperforming ships and give them tools that no other ship had access to. Both of those ships were fundamentally weak, but in different ways. Ultimately, it was the introduction of Autothrusters that allowed the Squint to flourish, and the A-Wing's other buff- the Chardaan Refit- that has let it be successful.

BTL-A4 is also a nice buff- it allows for an in-arc double tap. That's worth significant more than "zero" points. Indeed, until the introduction of the TLT, the BTL-A4 title was the only competitive way to build a Y-Wing.

One thing all of these have in common is that they require the spending of additional points in order to get value from them. That absolutely does hamper their use. But that doesn't mean they aren't a buff, nor that they weren't intended as a fix.

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Thinking about the F/O and S/F:

They would both benefit from the "evade tokens + coms relay" combo.

The TIE F/O would get far less use from the free evade tokens, given that it has that on it's action bar already.

The S/F doesn't have the evade action, and is a tiny bit defensively weak because of it.

The S/F has a bunch of speed 3 maneuvers, but only 1 at speed 4, and none at speed 5.

With X7, Comm Relay + Accuracy Corrector, and Juke, QuickDraw would be making 4 fully modified shots per turn for a couple turns, with a token to limit damage. All while either stressed or taking a barrel roll action.

By taking the X7 title, the S/F would be giving up a 3rd attack die from the front. I'm not sure that's worth it. I'm not sure it's not worth it.

BTL-A4 is also a nice buff- it allows for an in-arc double tap. That's worth significant more than "zero" points. Indeed, until the introduction of the TLT, the BTL-A4 title was the only competitive way to build a Y-Wing.

I don't know that the BTL-A4 title was a buff as much as it was an upgrade that allowed the Y-Wing to fill a completely different role. Combined with the Unhinged Astromech, the title seemed like it was there to give Scum something to fill the sort of role that Rebels had X-Wings and B-Wings filling.

The BTL-A4 title isn't really free though, it costs 75% of the area that would be covered by the Y-Wing's turret.

Scatterfire (Title, 2 points) - It gives the TIE a decent power boost without overdoing it. Sort of like a 1-shot TLT.

Increase your attack value by one. If the attack hits, deal 1 critical hit to the the defender, then cancel all dice results.

I like this idea. Makes TIE fighters more accurate, but limits their damage output appropriately. Almost all 2-attack ships need a title like this. It could be 0 points and cause no trouble.

TIE fighters should remain the swarmiest ship. Z-95 and now the Scyk are all tied for being cheapest ship at 12 points.

The Academy Pilot could be 10 points no problem. This would equate to a 16.67% efficiency boost.

Maybe instead of "scatter" call it "burst" fire, which actually equates to what we see on film. TIEs tend to fire in short bursts of multiple linked shots which is how they can burn down X-Wings despite their shields and smaller number of guns.

See, you figure flying swarms properly and concentrating fire would be a rewarding experience, but nope saving throws just **** on your dreams

See, ARMADA did this properly by replacing green dice with defensive tokens that can only be used once per round (twice per round, but you discard the token forever on the 2nd use) allowing tiny things l8ke squadrons and cr90s to focus down even the most durable capital ships

You dont get this experience in xwing, sadly. Agility provides a constant defense to high numbers of low dice attacks

Really takes the fun out of the swarm imo

Which is why we need a thing that allows you to "mark" targets

Ie, when another friendly ship fires and the defeder is in your firing arc, give the attacker fanatical devotion

Done

Makes concentrated fire actually do something

I'm not sure I want to see titles on the TIE fighter but it may be the best way to do so - and certainly not necessarily solving the problem with EPTs (because Black Squadron Pilots need help a lot less than Academy/Obsidian Pilots do, and the latter two don't have such an option).

Solving it through named pilots designed to lead a TIE swarm might work. Youngster is nice in theory - if awkward in practice - and Swarm Leader is a nice EPT - the problem is that if you have 5-7 "generic goons" and a "linchpin" TIE fighter, the latter one tends to explode in the first pass.

I agree with the problem of concentrated fire.

In theory, concentrated fire does work. Because the first shot shoots at a target with a focus token, doesn't hit him, but makes him spend his focus token, and the second and subsequent attackers are firing at a target with unmodified green dice which are much less likely to stop damage.

In practice, though, a 'modern' ship either has so many 'once-per-turn' tricks they'll have one to use against each attacker (like Soontir's focus/focus/evade/palpatine) or has tricks that can't be exhausted but work against every attacker in the turn (dengar or rey popping glitterstim/countermeasures) or just work forever (lone wolf, autothrusters).

If four or five TIE fighters can't exhaust a ship's 'tricks', then the principle of concentrating fire falls over. The first time I really felt on the short end of this was the first time I took on Scum Boba Fett - trying to kill that thing with a TIE fighter swarm is a nightmare (at range 3 you face three dice to your two, and at range 1 you face two rerolled dice you your three), and things have got steadily harder since.

I definitely agree that blocking is an issue. A disconcerting amount of things now ignore being blocked for their dice modifiers, which takes the 'generic TIE's' last big trick away.

Maybe I'm pulling in more trouble, but what if we looked at the Core/Cannon ships anew. What if there was a title card for the beloved X-Wing and TIE Fighter that gave pure squads a distinct boost when flying in formation? I guess it would be akin to a fighter wing upgrade. Strength in numbers as the more of the squad you have, the more powerful the bump (as in keeping mods and add-ons down, like elite pilot mods and the like).

One of the things I've thought of for where I would consider taking X-Wing for more design space, would be to create squad combinations that deliver particular benefits when you play them. The intention of this would be encourage players to use pilots not currently seeing use, be more thematic, or in new ways. eg. "Red Squadron": if you run Biggs & Luke in your squad then both get a bonus effect. "Obsidian Patrol": If you run three Obsidian Squadron TIE Fighters they all get a bonus effect.

BTL-A4 and Royal Guard TIE are not buffs. They allow more options but they are not priced below their worth. The same was true of A-wing Test Pilot on release although the subsequent release of 0 point EPTs has made its current state arguable.

These were absolutely intended as buffs. The Royal Guard title and A-Wing Test Pilot were both designed to take underperforming ships and give them tools that no other ship had access to. Both of those ships were fundamentally weak, but in different ways. Ultimately, it was the introduction of Autothrusters that allowed the Squint to flourish, and the A-Wing's other buff- the Chardaan Refit- that has let it be successful.

BTL-A4 is also a nice buff- it allows for an in-arc double tap. That's worth significant more than "zero" points. Indeed, until the introduction of the TLT, the BTL-A4 title was the only competitive way to build a Y-Wing.

One thing all of these have in common is that they require the spending of additional points in order to get value from them. That absolutely does hamper their use. But that doesn't mean they aren't a buff, nor that they weren't intended as a fix.

The buff for the A-wing was Chaardan refit and the buff for the TIE interceptor was Autothrusters. Before the release of Autothrusters and 0 point EPTs the slot adding titles were just added slots and often weren't used at all: it was considered stacking more points on fragile ships.

BTL-A4 allows a double tap at the cost of losing a 360 arc. On a ship that flies like a, well, Y-wing. You trade consistency and maneuvering options for firepower. It's a sidegrade.

One of the things I've thought of for where I would consider taking X-Wing for more design space, would be to create squad combinations that deliver particular benefits when you play them. The intention of this would be encourage players to use pilots not currently seeing use, be more thematic, or in new ways. eg. "Red Squadron": if you run Biggs & Luke in your squad then both get a bonus effect. "Obsidian Patrol": If you run three Obsidian Squadron TIE Fighters they all get a bonus effect.

This comes up a lot, usually from very new members. All this would achieve is reducing the number of viable combinations. Why buff the X-wing in a way that only allows one or two pilot combinations when you could buff it in a manner that lets all X-wings flourish? This sort of "get a buff for running a specific squad" idea just serves to reduce list diversity, not increase it.

The Academy Pilot could be 10 points no problem. This would equate to a 16.67% efficiency boost.

It'd equate to a ten ship list.

Every point you knock off the TIE fighter adds another TIE fighter to that squad.

One of the things I've thought of for where I would consider taking X-Wing for more design space, would be to create squad combinations that deliver particular benefits when you play them. The intention of this would be encourage players to use pilots not currently seeing use, be more thematic, or in new ways. eg. "Red Squadron": if you run Biggs & Luke in your squad then both get a bonus effect. "Obsidian Patrol": If you run three Obsidian Squadron TIE Fighters they all get a bonus effect.

This comes up a lot, usually from very new members. All this would achieve is reducing the number of viable combinations. Why buff the X-wing in a way that only allows one or two pilot combinations when you could buff it in a manner that lets all X-wings flourish? This sort of "get a buff for running a specific squad" idea just serves to reduce list diversity, not increase it.

Nice unnecessary passive aggressive ****-stirring.

It only reduces diversity if the squads are better than playing the current lists. Get the design right and you introduce additional diversity by creating new reasons to use ships not getting used.

Case in point: Black Squadron TIE was pretty crap then Crack Shot came out. That was an increase in diversity Now there were reasons to play Academy Pilot and also reasons to play Black Squadron TIE. Introduce the 'Obsidian Patrol' with an appropriate ability/cost (thining for five seconds: rerolling a green dice dice for each Obsidian TIE at range 1) and now you've got a reason to run Academy Pilots (raw cost, flexible squad building), a reason to run Obsidian TIEs (they cost more but die less), and a reason to run Black Squadron TIEs (the EPT). That's more diversity not less.

Indeed. The point is to improve the pilots who aren't used, by giving them a leg up. A lot of them have a 'thematic' place they should be used, and - more importantly - lack the ability to be 'fixed' by modifications or elite upgrades (because they already have an auto-include of the former or don't have the latter).

A "Saber Squadron" formation isn't there to reduce the ways you can take Soontir Fel, because you can still take him wherever you like and he becomes no less good. What the formation needs to do is provide a rules benefit such that fielding Fel's Wrath in the vicinity of Soontir Fel becomes as 'worth it' as another elite interceptor.