If you had success flying a tie swarm in tournaments why do you think it needs a drastic buff?

Apparently it's because they don't have one...

Which you know is a great reason to potentially throw the balance of the whole game out of whack... Because one ship doesn't have the same type of upgrade that others do.

Are you aware of the concept of linear time?

The past is not the present, nor is it the future.

You dont get this experience in xwing, sadly. Agility provides a constant defense to high numbers of low dice attacks

Which bizarrely enough should be how you take down an agile ship: lots of attacks rather than a few big ones.

Why should lots of (inacurrate) attacks be better at taking down an agile ship? over a few big (accurate) ones?

Are you aware of the concept of linear time?

The past is not the present, nor is it the future.

You said last year that's less then a month ago are the U-wing and tie striker dominating your tie swarms? Probably the re-released falcon taking your list apart in the midfle part of the year?

Either you had success with them so they are fine, or you struggled getting them to work and you think they need a buff. You can't have both.

What that was released last year is shutting down your successfull tie swarm? What ship combo can't you defeat?

If you had success flying a tie swarm in tournaments why do you think it needs a drastic buff?

Apparently it's because they don't have one...

Which you know is a great reason to potentially throw the balance of the whole game out of whack... Because one ship doesn't have the same type of upgrade that others do.

But now you assume the title "throw the balance of the whole game out of whack", it does not need to. I never said anything about it being zero cost, if appropriatly costed, or if the title also adds another form of penalty it would be fine.

Are you aware of the concept of linear time?

The past is not the present, nor is it the future.

You said last year that's less then a month ago are the U-wing and tie striker dominating your tie swarms? Probably the re-released falcon taking your list apart in the midfle part of the year?

Either you had success with them so they are fine, or you struggled getting them to work and you think they need a buff. You can't have both.

What that was released last year is shutting down your successfull tie swarm? What ship combo can't you defeat?

A year contains 365 days. TIE Strikers and U-Wings were premier tournament legal for... 5 of those days? I think? Maybe not even that?

You're clearly trolling and I won't rise to it. If you genuinely require more information then it's a topic that's been extensively discussed on this forum, and even in this thread.

I would take a page from armada and the way it handles tie swarms. Something like

"When attacking or defending, if there is another friendly tie fighter within range 1 of you, you may reroll one die."

Rewards swarms, but not so much squeezing in a single a academy blocker, gives a minor buff to both offense and defense. And if at all possible (including making it weaker by cutting out the defense buff if necessary), I would want to figure out someway to make it cost .5 points. That way you could equip it on 8 academies for an even 100 points.

My opinion the tie fighter is quite good, just don't try and swarm them if you have to play 8+ games in a day or you won't win, not because of the ship because of player fatigue (now matter how cocky you are).

It does not need a title, it's a good ship. If it did get a title I would only hope it's minimal and mostly changes the functionality of the ship it really does not need a power boost.

While I mostly agree, the fact remains that TIE swarms can't be flown competitively with 8 TIEs at the moment. And even 5 TIE, meaning that the individuals did need a powerboost, are hard pressed against PalpAces, Commonwealth Defenders, Paratanni or Dengaroo, to name the big four lists.

By hard pressed I mean: personally I do not stand a chance.

Why should lots of (inacurrate) attacks be better at taking down an agile ship? over a few big (accurate) ones?

Well first of all you're the one applying the accurate and inaccurate assumption, he didn't make that. Second of all if the agility of the defender outstrips the accuracy of the attacker then you just fill the sky with lasers and make him run out safe places to be.

My opinion the tie fighter is quite good, just don't try and swarm them if you have to play 8+ games in a day or you won't win, not because of the ship because of player fatigue (now matter how cocky you are).

It does not need a title, it's a good ship. If it did get a title I would only hope it's minimal and mostly changes the functionality of the ship it really does not need a power boost.

While I mostly agree, the fact remains that TIE swarms can't be flown competitively with 8 TIEs at the moment. And even 5 TIE, meaning that the individuals did need a powerboost, are hard pressed against PalpAces, Commonwealth Defenders, Paratanni or Dengaroo, to name the big four lists.

By hard pressed I mean: personally I do not stand a chance.

It's not just you, TIE Fighters are flying coffins these days. I don't think any of the leading TIE Swarm advocates are still plugging away with them.

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Though, any TIE Fighter Only title is going to need to take into account the TIE/fo and TIE/sf. That title on Omega Leader might be a bit brutal (You basically take two guaranteed damage if Omega Leader rolls 2 damage).

One way to mitigate this and limit the title away from First Order is to make it Imperial only. I believe this would prevent the 'bump' on FO/SF as they are not Imperial but First Order.

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Double like.

Edit: This goes to StayOnTheLeader of course

I'm curious though. You did quite well back in August with 5 TIEs. What changed?

Dengaroo was already around, x7 Defenders too.

HotR, Fangfighter and Ventress are new. But are they the problem?

Though, any TIE Fighter Only title is going to need to take into account the TIE/fo and TIE/sf. That title on Omega Leader might be a bit brutal (You basically take two guaranteed damage if Omega Leader rolls 2 damage).

One way to mitigate this and limit the title away from First Order is to make it Imperial only. I believe this would prevent the 'bump' on FO/SF as they are not Imperial but First Order.

It would have to be "Galactic Empire only." If you say "Imperial," it refers to both The Galactic Empire and The First Order.

Are you aware of the concept of linear time?

The past is not the present, nor is it the future.

You said last year that's less then a month ago are the U-wing and tie striker dominating your tie swarms? Probably the re-released falcon taking your list apart in the midfle part of the year?

Either you had success with them so they are fine, or you struggled getting them to work and you think they need a buff. You can't have both.

What that was released last year is shutting down your successfull tie swarm? What ship combo can't you defeat?

A year contains 365 days. TIE Strikers and U-Wings were premier tournament legal for... 5 of those days? I think? Maybe not even that?

You're clearly trolling and I won't rise to it. If you genuinely require more information then it's a topic that's been extensively discussed on this forum, and even in this thread.

You are right, me asking you to tell me what it was in the last year that shut down your successfull tie swarm is trolling.

I am just trying to see what it is that changed, you had success flying a tie swarm now you are not, what is it that changed that in the last 365 days.

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Errata the X7 title. Kill a few birds with one stone.

Your distinction into "flatout upgrades" versus "sidegrades" and classification of "titles" feels a little artificial:

X7 defender title: you get an evade and -2, at the cost of no cannons or missiles. So not a "flatout" upgrade.

A-wing title: the cost of adding an ept-slot is easily worth 2pt by itself, and we now have several 0pt ept's and I think we will get more.

Tie Interceptor title: the combination of stealth device and autothrusters on a high ps pilot with palp backup, worth some points imho.

Y-wing title: essential to the old stress-hog and that combination enabled by the title also made that ship easily worth its point cost.

Heavy scyk recon is also a buf (2pts for a 3pt hull upgrade). Light scyk enables you to swarm a mindlink list with 6 ships.

If I've confused you, allow me to be more clear. Most titles are priced like upgrade cards - their benefit is offset by their cost. For some upgrades this is a literal point cost increase, other upgrades inflict a penalty to offset their bonus. They provide additional options for a ship but are not meant to significantly alter its balance state.

A small subset of upgrade cards are deliberately priced below the benefit they provide. This would make them undercosted/overpowered normally, but the ships to which they can be equipped were priced too highly on release. The intent is that this overpricing and underpricing cancels out, leaving the ship correctly balanced.

The four ships that have directly received this sort of "fix" are the A-wing (Chardaan Refit), TIE advanced (TIE/x1 and Advanced Targeting Computer), TIE defender (TIE/x7 and TIE/D) and M-3A Scyk (Light Scyk and errated Heavy Scyk). All of these ships received new upgrade cards priced below their actual worth. This cancels out the ship's original overpricing and brings it in line with ships FFG believes to be balanced correctly. The designers have also said in the past that Autothrusters was priced below its worth to slightly buff the ships that can equip it.

BTL-A4 and Royal Guard TIE are not buffs. They allow more options but they are not priced below their worth. The same was true of A-wing Test Pilot on release although the subsequent release of 0 point EPTs has made its current state arguable.

Why should lots of (inacurrate) attacks be better at taking down an agile ship? over a few big (accurate) ones?

Where is this accurate/inaccurate thing coming from? I never said anything about accuracy.

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Errata the X7 title. Kill a few birds with one stone.

TIE/x7 (0 points)

TIE only. Imperial Only.

Your upgrade bar loses the [CANNON] and [MISSILE] upgrade icons.

After executing a 3-, 4-, or 5-speed maneuver, you may perform a free evade action.

x7 punishers though?

kinda silly

though I'd absolutely love it on D-rain

The TIE fighter's the balance benchmark to which FFG attempts to calibrate the rest of the game. When the TIE fighter gets pushed out then FFG tends to look at nerfing rather than buffing. Otherwise we'd get into an endless loop of fix leapfrog.

And yes, swarms are very demanding of pilots; that's why swarm flying should get a reward in the TIEs ability to compete on the mat.

Overpowering difficult ships isn't a good way to achieve balance.

I get your point Blue Five; but the contrary point is: Overpowering simple ships isn't a good way to achieve balance.

Edit: This goes to StayOnTheLeader of course

I'm curious though. You did quite well back in August with 5 TIEs. What changed?

Dengaroo was already around, x7 Defenders too.

HotR, Fangfighter and Ventress are new. But are they the problem?

There was virtually zero crossover between TIE swarms and /x7. My last big tournament with Swarm was UK Nats, which coincidentally also was the first big event I saw Triple Defenders do well in (they also made top 8, I think maybe top 4), Canadian and Aussie Nats rapidly followed then Defenders were everywhere and swarms were just gone. Dengaroo was certainly a problem for most swarms by then, and probably the beginning of the end, but mine was a little different to most swarms and actually had good game vs Dengaroo.

Defenders live in a similar jousting space to swarms, they just do it better and more easily and with fewer natural predators. Most things that people now play to beat Defenders happen to beat TIE swarms twice as hard just by happy accident.

If you just imagine playing a TIE Swarm at the moment there's virtually none of the current popular lists that you actually want to play against. Maybe Fangaroo, they won't appreciate Crack Shots much.

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Double like.

Which was the original suggestion I'm being shat on for suggesting...

It's called Tie FO, tie striker, tie advanced,....

Hmm just thpugh of x7 tie fighters (0 points instead of -2)

juicey juke black squadrons yes please

Sf and FO would love it as well

Besides just makes sense in general. Go fast, be harder to hit

Errata the X7 title. Kill a few birds with one stone.

TIE/x7 (0 points)

TIE only. Imperial Only.

Your upgrade bar loses the [CANNON] and [MISSILE] upgrade icons.

After executing a 3-, 4-, or 5-speed maneuver, you may perform a free evade action.

x7 punishers though?

kinda silly

though I'd absolutely love it on D-rain

Yup. I left the bomb and torpedo slots alone just so that Punishers and Bombers could get in on the X7 fun without losing all of their toys.

The evade token was switched to an evade action to keep ships with the evade action from getting too tanky. I didn't want to try an exclude Interceptors because I think that getting that free evade action might be enough to get some of the lesser played Interceptors on the table. Kir Kanos might even see some play as a cheapish flanker that can hit hard if he could reliably get a focus and evade most rounds.

The TIE fighter's the balance benchmark to which FFG attempts to calibrate the rest of the game. When the TIE fighter gets pushed out then FFG tends to look at nerfing rather than buffing. Otherwise we'd get into an endless loop of fix leapfrog.

And yes, swarms are very demanding of pilots; that's why swarm flying should get a reward in the TIEs ability to compete on the mat.

Overpowering difficult ships isn't a good way to achieve balance.

I get your point Blue Five; but the contrary point is: Overpowering simple ships isn't a good way to achieve balance.

That's not a counterpoint, that's just replacing one word with an antonym.

What I'm saying is you can't factor player skill into ship balance. A TIE swarm is harder to fly than a fat turret list: a low skill player will probably have an easier time being successful with the two ship list than a seven ship list as there are fewer parts to think about and fewer decisions to make.

You could fix this by powering up the TIE fighter so that the low skill player's ineptitude with the TIE swarm is balanced out by the TIE swarm's greater power. If you do this you create the same problem at the other end: a high skill player with a TIE swarm will now dominate a high skill player with a fat turret.