Ok, so I've come across a scenario whose conclusion I do not know the answer to. Since I can only play 1 game a week with someone on the same gaming level as I (my wife, her co-worker, and my buddy do NOT count xD), I try to simulate different scenarios during what little free time I have. While working on a Rebel scumbag....I mean Alliance....list, I started building with Dodonna. From there I started to question how to generate as many crits as possible. To that end, I came up with the following as part of the fleet:

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
- Fire-Control Team ( 2 points)
- XX-9 Turbolasers ( 5 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 83 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Fire-Control Team ( 2 points)
- XX-9 Turbolasers ( 5 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 83 total ship cost

So as you can see, I'm using Fire-Control Team to generate multiple critical effects per engagement. The problem that I've run in to is resolving these criticals.

So hypothetically speaking, if my opponent cannot utilize a defense token and has no shields and I roll 1 black hit/critical, 3 hits, and 2 misses for a total of 5 damage from 6 dice with 1 crit from the side arc....does that mean Dodonna gets to fish for 3 face up damage cards or would the XX-9 over ride the APT or vice versa? Would both critical effects trigger off the same, singluar crit roll?

Do all the Dice Related things...

- Rolled, Modify
- Defense Tokens, etc.

Hell, let's Simply it even Further...

AT THE END OF THIS STAGE, YOU HAVE ONE, SINGLE, BLACK DIE, SHOWING THE HIT/CRIT FACE.

Then, you get to the Damage Step:

1) Resolve Critical Effect. You have a Black Die showing a 'Crit', then you resolve your Critical Effect. You decide to use APTs. This assigns one face up damage card immediately. As Dodonna is involved, your opponent would take the top 4 and you'd choose which one.

Then you would Exhaust Fire Control Team.

You would then say, "As I have a Crit (of any colour) showing, I will also use XX-9s. The first two Damage cards I deal this turn, are Face up."

You then calculate your Damage.

In the case of having no shields, no tokens, and a single black Hit/Crit showing, that is Two Damage Cards, both of which are face up...

So your Opponent would Deal you 4 Cards, and you'd pick one for the First...

Then your Opponent would deal 4 more, and you'd pick one for the Second...

Whenever anything OF YOURS is "Simultanious" in Armada, you CHOOSE THE ORDER IT RESOLVES IN.

Simple as that

You do NOT SPEND, EXPEND, OR DELETE CRITICAL SYMBOLS OR DICE TO RESOLVE A CRITICAL EFFECT, UNLESS THE EFFECT TELLS YOU TO...

... And So far, in Armada, NO EFFECT TELLS YOU TO.

However, it comes with a Caveat:

If you had a Black Hit?Crit

And both APTs and ION CANNON BATTERIES

As ION CANNON BATTERIES requries a Blue Crit, you could not trigger it - even with Fire Control Teams...

As ION CANNON BATTERIES requries a Blue Crit, you could not trigger it - even with Fire Control Teams...

Yup, tracking that part. Thanks for the reply. JJust wanted to see if my understanding was correct!

Fabulous response Dras.

Wait, you're saying that with FCT, you can resolve multiple crit effects off the same crit symbol?

Bloody hell. That card just got way more interesting.

Wait, you're saying that with FCT, you can resolve multiple crit effects off the same crit symbol?

Bloody hell. That card just got way more interesting.

Yep.

With that fresh view, go back and look at the rules, and then ask yourself, "Why would I even think I needed more than one in the first place?"

They are not Spent* - which means they are remaining in the Pool. They're still a symbol. They're not marked, discarded, or 'used' - simply having one is all that is required.

And so far, there is no Critical Effect that demands you spend the Critical Die to activate... Fletchette Torpedoes is close to how that would work as a mechanic, but its still not the same thing (as its spend in the Resolve Attack Effects step, not the Damage Step, and isn't a critical, as it works on Squadrons...)

The card is Cheap. But its in a hotly contested slot (what with Gunnery Teams), and its an Exhaust, so its only one attack per Turn... And to get some really fun effects, you really need to have multiple criticals of different colours anyway...

Dras, I have a disagreement with the number of cards dealt face up. In your example, you dealt 1 card face-up with APTs, and then 2 damage cards face-up off the second crit effect + XX-9. However, XX-9 says "The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup." The attack would be the entire attack, not just the part of the attack after XX-9s are activated. APTs says "Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender." The card from APTs is a damage card and it is dealt. It seems like that card would count against the 2 cards given by XX-9s, so you would only deal 1 extra crit. XX-9s wouldn't actually help out in this case.

Dras, I have a disagreement with the number of cards dealt face up. In your example, you dealt 1 card face-up with APTs, and then 2 damage cards face-up off the second crit effect + XX-9. However, XX-9 says "The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup." The attack would be the entire attack, not just the part of the attack after XX-9s are activated. APTs says "Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender." The card from APTs is a damage card and it is dealt. It seems like that card would count against the 2 cards given by XX-9s, so you would only deal 1 extra crit. XX-9s wouldn't actually help out in this case.

I will spare you the discussions of a previous thread on that very subject.

But basically, if you keep them all lumped together, you break the game in other ways...

Luke Skywalker being unable to resolve certain critical effects, for one.

The advice we were given (which is, of course, unofficial, but from the appropriate source) was to keep those two conditions separate.

Essentially, it is under that advice that I give my rules explanation.

Otherwise, you invalidate the entire point of many cards, upgrades and effects

Dras, I have a disagreement with the number of cards dealt face up. In your example, you dealt 1 card face-up with APTs, and then 2 damage cards face-up off the second crit effect + XX-9. However, XX-9 says "The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup." The attack would be the entire attack, not just the part of the attack after XX-9s are activated. APTs says "Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender." The card from APTs is a damage card and it is dealt. It seems like that card would count against the 2 cards given by XX-9s, so you would only deal 1 extra crit. XX-9s wouldn't actually help out in this case.

I've had this sitting at FFG for a ruling since before W3/4 was available. We had a long, hotly-contested thread a few months back in which I was basically shouted down for bringing this up. My suggestion: send in the question, agree with your buddies on what to do, and clarify it at a tourney if you ever see a VSD or MC30 with XX-9, APT, and FCT. I still haven't ever faced or fielded it because you lose OE, so it's never actually come up in a game.

Dras, I have a disagreement with the number of cards dealt face up. In your example, you dealt 1 card face-up with APTs, and then 2 damage cards face-up off the second crit effect + XX-9. However, XX-9 says "The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup." The attack would be the entire attack, not just the part of the attack after XX-9s are activated. APTs says "Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender." The card from APTs is a damage card and it is dealt. It seems like that card would count against the 2 cards given by XX-9s, so you would only deal 1 extra crit. XX-9s wouldn't actually help out in this case.

The way I see it, the APT card is not dealt by the attack, it is dealt by the critical effect. XX-9s don't kick in until you start totaling damage and apply it to the shields

Wait, you're saying that with FCT, you can resolve multiple crit effects off the same crit symbol?

Bloody hell. That card just got way more interesting.

You and me both!

I only found this out in a recent thread that also touched on this. I plan to try out Fire Control Teams in my CC Imperial list based on this as it just went from a never use card to a definitely try out card. More to the point, small ships now have a reasonable chance of utilizing FCTs.

Dras, I have a disagreement with the number of cards dealt face up. In your example, you dealt 1 card face-up with APTs, and then 2 damage cards face-up off the second crit effect + XX-9. However, XX-9 says "The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup." The attack would be the entire attack, not just the part of the attack after XX-9s are activated. APTs says "Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender." The card from APTs is a damage card and it is dealt. It seems like that card would count against the 2 cards given by XX-9s, so you would only deal 1 extra crit. XX-9s wouldn't actually help out in this case.

The way I see it, the APT card is not dealt by the attack, it is dealt by the critical effect. XX-9s don't kick in until you start totaling damage and apply it to the shields

This was my thoughts as well but brought it here to be absolutely sure. To me, APTs say "if you crit, do this now" whereas XXX-9s are part of damage assessment.

Wait, you're saying that with FCT, you can resolve multiple crit effects off the same crit symbol?

Bloody hell. That card just got way more interesting.

You and me both!

I only found this out in a recent thread that also touched on this. I plan to try out Fire Control Teams in my CC Imperial list based on this as it just went from a never use card to a definitely try out card. More to the point, small ships now have a reasonable chance of utilizing FCTs.

I've run it in 2 games so far. To be honest, it's somewhat meh, especially if you manage to not crit any of the things. On a side note, it's interesting to be able to strip shields with squadrons/other attacks, hit at long range with the xx-9 and then on the next turn follow up with another xx-9 hit and APTs. On a Dodonna list, it gets idiotic...."give me 4 cards"...."give me 4 more"....."one more time"....with a good (or bad for your opponent) draw, you can land a lot of damage fishing for those faceup cards that deal additional damage.

Wait, you're saying that with FCT, you can resolve multiple crit effects off the same crit symbol?

Bloody hell. That card just got way more interesting.

You and me both!

I only found this out in a recent thread that also touched on this. I plan to try out Fire Control Teams in my CC Imperial list based on this as it just went from a never use card to a definitely try out card. More to the point, small ships now have a reasonable chance of utilizing FCTs.

I've run it in 2 games so far. To be honest, it's somewhat meh, especially if you manage to not crit any of the things. On a side note, it's interesting to be able to strip shields with squadrons/other attacks, hit at long range with the xx-9 and then on the next turn follow up with another xx-9 hit and APTs. On a Dodonna list, it gets idiotic...."give me 4 cards"...."give me 4 more"....."one more time"....with a good (or bad for your opponent) draw, you can land a lot of damage fishing for those faceup cards that deal additional damage.

But then it is only 2 points.

For me it went from never use card to a potentially sometimes use. Gunnery Teams will probably remain the firm favourite, but now this has at least provided some cheaper competition.

Dras, I have a disagreement with the number of cards dealt face up. In your example, you dealt 1 card face-up with APTs, and then 2 damage cards face-up off the second crit effect + XX-9. However, XX-9 says "The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup." The attack would be the entire attack, not just the part of the attack after XX-9s are activated. APTs says "Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender." The card from APTs is a damage card and it is dealt. It seems like that card would count against the 2 cards given by XX-9s, so you would only deal 1 extra crit. XX-9s wouldn't actually help out in this case.

The way I see it, the APT card is not dealt by the attack, it is dealt by the critical effect. XX-9s don't kick in until you start totaling damage and apply it to the shields

I also agree with Dras's description of the mechanics workflow, and by the precedent that APT is not associated specifically with dealing damage at all in the first place; it doesn't require that you even successfully caused hull or even shield damage, only that the black critical result was rolled and not cancelled.

Wait, you're saying that with FCT, you can resolve multiple crit effects off the same crit symbol?

Bloody hell. That card just got way more interesting.

You and me both!

I only found this out in a recent thread that also touched on this. I plan to try out Fire Control Teams in my CC Imperial list based on this as it just went from a never use card to a definitely try out card. More to the point, small ships now have a reasonable chance of utilizing FCTs.

I've run it in 2 games so far. To be honest, it's somewhat meh, especially if you manage to not crit any of the things. On a side note, it's interesting to be able to strip shields with squadrons/other attacks, hit at long range with the xx-9 and then on the next turn follow up with another xx-9 hit and APTs. On a Dodonna list, it gets idiotic...."give me 4 cards"...."give me 4 more"....."one more time"....with a good (or bad for your opponent) draw, you can land a lot of damage fishing for those faceup cards that deal additional damage.

But then it is only 2 points.

For me it went from never use card to a potentially sometimes use. Gunnery Teams will probably remain the firm favourite, but now this has at least provided some cheaper competition.

If you run this on 3 ships with Screed, on the other hand....

^^ that's precisely what my CC Screed fleet does. Also my Darth Vader fleet!

With that fresh view, go back and look at the rules, and then ask yourself, "Why would I even think I needed more than one in the first place?"

The usual. Reading words that aren't there, following the flow rather than the flowchart, and/or using the rule from 3.5 in a Pathfinder game.

With that fresh view, go back and look at the rules, and then ask yourself, "Why would I even think I needed more than one in the first place?"

The usual. Reading words that aren't there, following the flow rather than the flowchart, and/or using the rule from 3.5 in a Pathfinder game.

I have these epiphanies so often. 3-4 times a day... Someone mentions something, and I go... "The Hell was I thinking? No, you're right, it says........" and I'm thusly unsurprised when it happens now.

I remember when my dad had that epiphany when I was teaching him the game (he's now my regular opponent when I need a break from the kids and their chaos).

I explained to him that all that matters in the dice pool is the one crit-having 4 crit's is just the joy of overkill, and any results past the first really only just serves to make it harder for your opponent to cancel that "at least one crit result" requirement completely out of the pool.

Hate to necro, but has this been modified since the errata? Also, has there been an updated attack flowchart? I have the old one from 2015, but haven't seen an updated one.

No, the new errata made no differences to this point. There is no point in stacking the APT Critical and the Default Critical, or the XX9 Critical and the Default Critical... But instances of stacking Non-Default with Non-Default or the Default are, generally, still pretty **** good. Especially with Blue effects in particular.

Sorry I'm still confused post-errata. So for apt+xx-9, if they both proc that is 3 face-ups or 2?

3 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

Sorry I'm still confused post-errata. So for apt+xx-9, if they both proc that is 3 face-ups or 2?

Given the Precedent of the APT+Default Critical.

2.

The First Two Damage cards are face up due to XX9. But APT is a Face up Damage card that counts as one of those.

Seconded.