Hello all -

When a player uses the rule Elite Sniper from the elite Alliance Ranger card, may they choose to re-roll one attack die, see the result, and then choose to re-roll a second attack die (but not the already re-rolled die)? Or, would this be an instance of using the same ability multiple times?

"Elite Sniper: While attacking, if the target space is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll up to 2 attack dice."

My question is a duplicate of this discussion here: http://www.reddit.com/r/ImperialAssaultTMG/comments/5ofqpp/quick_question_about_ealliance_rangers/

There seem to be two interpretations without clear support of the rules in either case. What does the community think? How are communities playing this rule?

They're rerolled as part of the same skill, so the decision whether to reroll one or two needs to be done before rerolling.

Rerolls from separate abilities can be done in any order, such as the HK Assassin Droids, being able to decide the order in which they either reroll one of their own dice and one of their opponent's. Another example is Lando Calrissian rerolling one die with his own ability and a die by playing Mitigate: he can also decide the order (and what dice he changes to what other dice, with his other ability). This is not the case for the Elite Sniper, however. One ability = one triggering window = must decide how many before rerolling.

They're rerolled as part of the same skill, so the decision whether to reroll one or two needs to be done before rerolling.

Rerolls from separate abilities can be done in any order, such as the HK Assassin Droids, being able to decide the order in which they either reroll one of their own dice and one of their opponent's. Another example is Lando Calrissian rerolling one die with his own ability and a die by playing Mitigate: he can also decide the order (and what dice he changes to what other dice, with his other ability). This is not the case for the Elite Sniper, however. One ability = one triggering window = must decide how many before rerolling.

I completely agree, and it feels like common sense, but can you reference what prevents a "While attacking" ability from being used multiple times?

All abilities have a certain time window, no matter how small. You may only use it during that time window (in other words, your opportunity to use that ability is gone as soon as that timing window closes). Nobody would be upset if you just say "hold it, before you do that, I want to do my ability XYZ"

All abilities may only be used once. You cannot "use multiple times" for ANY of the abilities in the game unless explicitly specified like Saska's Energy Shield . The exact wording for eAlliance Ranger is "Elite Sniper: ...you may reroll up to 2 attack dice". So you trigger Elite Sniper once and that's it

I think the confusion for you here is that you thought "while attacking" is a time window, it's not. The timing window depends on the specific ability

For example, eAlliance Ranger is "reroll", so we look it up and see "Aha, it's step 3 of attack in RRG". So you must do all those rerolls there

Another example, campaign Fenn's "Havoc shot" is "blast 1". Blast is a keyword and is applied at the very end. Hence why you may havoc shot after the dice are rolled

edit: this link might be overkill but re-iterates that every ability does have a timing window

You have to decide which dice to reroll, then reroll them. Each ability can be used only once per timing instance. All while attacking and defending abilities can be used only once per attack, including surge abilities.

I completely agree, and it feels like common sense, but can you reference what prevents a "While attacking" ability from being used multiple times?

Rules?

· If an ability is "used," it can be triggered multiple times each
round, but it can only be triggered once per timing instance.

For example, an ability that says, "Use while attacking to apply
+1dmg to the attack results," can only be triggered once during
each attack.

So, like said above, Elite Sniper can be used once in the reroll step of an attack to reroll 0, 1 or two dice, or not used at all.

Also see the Ability Resolution Order During Attacks from my signature for the other relevant rules.

Thanks for the clarification! Our community was a bit rankled by the misplaying of this rule throughout the course of a recent event and they'll be happy to know they were correct in their interpretation. It may have swayed some of their matches but the best we can do now is be educated about the correct usage of this rule and don't get duped again!

Also note that the "use" clause in the rules is not relevant. The ability text does not need to have "use" to fall under the rule. Any ability can only be used once per timing instance. Really.

Also note that the "use" clause in the rules is not relevant. The ability text does not need to have "use" to fall under the rule. Any ability can only be used once per timing instance. Really.

That rule was used in the above reddit link to argue against multiple uses but this rule was cited in respond and makes up the core of the argument for basically extending the window of opportunity until the player decides to no longer re-roll anything.

• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
• - An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.

To reiterate, I agree completely with your interpretation but this is the logic presented during the event that guided the incorrect usage by those players.

I may misunderstand. Are you saying they used a rule that defines the exact timing instance when an ability has to be used to argue that the ability can be used multiple times during that timing instance? Or was that used to settle the argument?

I'll quote the whole thing just for completeness (can be found from the Ability Resolution order link in my sig too).

Although not explicitly specified in the ability, most abilities have a very specific step in (or before) which to perform them depending on their effect.

· Any ability that is resolved "while attacking" or "while defending" can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
-- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack. (also: abilities that remove dice)
-- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
-- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack. (add or remove symbols or accuracy)

"while attacking" and "while defending" are shortcuts/abbreviations. This rule only defines when the ability must be triggered, it does not say that an ability could be used more than once.

I was trying to find the very old discussion about this from boardgamegeek, but seems I longer remember good keywords to use for the search.

Are you saying they used a rule that defines the exact timing instance when an ability has to be used to argue that the ability can be used multiple times during that timing instance?

This.

Player rolls dice. Chooses one to re-roll. Reviews result. Chooses (or doesn't choose) to re-roll a second die.

It did not happen to me for my game in this event but discussing that reddit thread with our local community caused several players to chime in that this is exactly what was played against them. I feel it is very important to keep the community on the same page with these discrepancies so it was frustrating to see this logic applied incorrectly without being able to cite something that says "no, you cannot use the same instance of an ability multiple times!"

I'm not sure the rules as written nor the emails/posts from the designers have answered this one.

The question isn't being able to reroll twice, the ability clearly gives you that ability. This isn't about waiting for the other player to reroll or use other abilties, that clearly is not legal. The issue is do you get to see the result from the first reroll before deciding to reroll the 2nd die? That I'm not sure about.

In the case of multiple "Use while attacking" abilities that grant the attacker a reroll, it is clear that you can indeed reroll one die from one ability, wait and see the result, then choose to reroll another die with the other ability. This is possible because both abilities trigger in the same window and due to conflict rules you can choose the order to resolve them.

In this case, however, you only have a single ability. Since this appears similiar to the multiple ability processing - I would have to rule that you can pause between rerolls to review the results of the first reroll before deciding to reroll the 2nd die - but I don't have anything to back that up (but at the same time I don't have any rules in front of me that would make that an illegal move). But I could see a valid point of view stating that the abilty has you reroll the dice at the same time (but in abscense of further clarification from FFG I'd assume it is legal).

No, the Elite Sniper ability does not allow you to reroll twice , it allows to reroll upto 2 dice.

To be able to reroll twice, the ability would simply read: "... you may reroll 1 attack die twice." because a rerolled die cannot be rerolled, there is nothing else needed.

As far as rules go, I would interpret it as written, but it may be that the intent was different. It does, however, make it an interesting ability. Just like Vinto's Rapid Fire rerolling all dice.

• Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:

No, the Elite Sniper ability does not allow you to reroll twice , it allows to reroll upto 2 dice.

To be able to reroll twice, the ability would simply read: "... you may reroll attack dice twice." because a rerolled die cannot be rerolled, there is nothing else needed.

As far as rules go, I would interpret it as written, but it may be that the intent was different. It does, however, make it an interesting ability. Just like Vinto's Rapid Fire rerolling all dice.

Yeah but the ability as written, nor the rules specify that you have to physically reroll both dice simultaneously. The timing windows do not force such a constraint as both rerolls are happening sequentially within the same timing window. I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent a player from rerolling one die at a time.

All I'm saying is that it is not clear by the rules as written and the abilty text whether both have to be decided at once or not. In the absence of such clarity you have to use the closest analogy, which would be the HKs which do allow a decision window between them. However, I agree that there is room for both interpretations on this one until we hear otherwise from FFG.

You don't need to reroll all dice you have chosen to reroll simultaneously physically, but you have to reroll the dice you have decided to reroll. You can't decide to reroll 2 dice, and then midway - after receiving advance information - decide to reroll just 1 die instead.

You choose the ability and then perform it.

HK Assassin droids have two abilities, and can thus decide their resolution order (both are reroll abilities). Nothing in that applies to Sniper and Elite Sniper, which are just single abilities. You either choose to perform them or not. You don't perform them partially, but fully.

I would be very surprised if you get a different ruling for this.

I understand where you are coming from, but show me where in the rules that says you have to decide which two dice to reroll before rerolling them? The ability does not explicitly state that, nor do the rules.

You aren't partially performing the ability by rolling them 1 die at a time, you are still in your window of execution for that ability to reroll the 2nd after the 1st die has completed its reroll.

The crux of the agrument is that what constitutes a reroll? The rules are very vague on that other than specifying it happens in step 3 of combat. But other than on the initial attack roll, there isn't anything that says all dice to be rolled have to be rolled at the same time. The ability doesn't say choose upto two attack dice then reroll them, it just says you may reroll upto two attack dice. So by that wording I reroll one die then can decide if I want to also reroll another die.

As far as rules go, I would interpret it as written, but it may be that the intent was different. It does, however, make it an interesting ability. Just like Vinto's Rapid Fire rerolling all dice.

Like I said above, the intent may be different than how I read it as a non-native English speaker. (Thus I argued how the ability should be written to allow a choice. But I admit, upto may imply mid-resolution choice.)