That "perception of Star Wars" (being starfighter-centric... I think that's what you mean?) just... It is Star Wars. In any and every source. For reasons given by various people (which mostly come down to "because it made better action adventure movies").

Rewind. Back up. How does a Decimator solo a VSD?

I also really hate it when my 51 point Nebulon is held up by an 8 point TIE Fighter or when targets are out of its distance 1 attack range. Oh wait, that's not at all a thing ships have problems with.

I see the anti-squadron complainers come out of the woodwork pretty regularly lately and they all seem to want to be able to use fleets that just don't care about the squadron mini-game (inadequate fighter coverage, inadequate flak, inadequate anti-flotilla tech) and then they come here to cry when that doesn't work because they get spanked by squadron fleets that are designed to play the whole game but they can only see the squadrons (because that is where their builds are weakest). They then claim it's impossible to win without going squadron-heavy despite Regionals being won by fleets with 4 A-Wings and second place finishers showing up with no squadrons at all.

In terms of the game, 2 B wings, 30points, do more damage than a 51 point Nebulon.

A decimator can kill a VSD on its own.

These are horrifically imbalanced.

If you look at it this way it seems imbalanced. But that's if you look at it this way which is to say in a vaccum and only looking at the damage comparison. And a Decimator cannot kill a VSD on its own. That has already been described perfectly. It's a silly slap fight.

Sure 2 Bwings can do more damage than a 51 point Nebulon but:

• They need fleet support and additional cost to realisticly do so. FCC, Flight Commander, All Fighters Follow Me, Boosted Comms, VCX, Yavaris, any of the above
• Are they alone? No. So now we add extra squadrons to protect them. Otherwise a couple of Tie Fighters will ruin their day. So now we have more cost and we are pushing our list down Squadon only route and not the ship route
• They die to a couple of anti squadron fighters unlike a Nebulon
• They earn their damage after they fly there at Speed 2 getting into range 1, they are not engaged, they are in range of Squadron Command otherwise goodluck with that plan

Second, do you want to show me a list example for mass squadron countering?

Here's an Anecdotal for you.

A Few weeks back up in Edmonton.

I played against Matt Damann...

I had a list that was basically Garm, MC80, Liberty, Two Transports, 6 Ys, 2Xs and a Hwk, or something along those lines... Essentially, Fighter-Heavy.

He had:

ISD

Gladiator II

Raider

Raider

Flotilla with the Ozzman.

I lost every squadron I had...

They got Instigator-Locked down, in such a way that Instigator itself was on the other side of a debris field... And thus, Immune to my Squadrons. Which then died to Flak-Fire from a Demolisher Glad-II...

This game was so close in the end, that I lost it on Kills and Points...

The only thing that had saved me was some 16 tokens I'd picked up on Superior Positions... Which again, barely let me win by some 20 points...

In terms of the game, 2 B wings, 30points, do more damage than a 51 point Nebulon.

A decimator can kill a VSD on its own.

These are horrifically imbalanced.

If you look at it this way it seems imbalanced. But that's if you look at it this way which is to say in a vaccum and only looking at the damage comparison. And a Decimator cannot kill a VSD on its own. That has already been described perfectly. It's a silly slap fight.

Sure 2 Bwings can do more damage than a 51 point Nebulon but:

• They need fleet support and additional cost to realisticly do so. FCC, Flight Commander, All Fighters Follow Me, Boosted Comms, VCX, Yavaris, any of the above
• Are they alone? No. So now we add extra squadrons to protect them. Otherwise a couple of Tie Fighters will ruin their day. So now we have more cost and we are pushing our list down Squadon only route and not the ship route
• They die to a couple of anti squadron fighters unlike a Nebulon
• They earn their damage after they fly there at Speed 2 getting into range 1, they are not engaged, they are in range of Squadron Command otherwise goodluck with that plan

There's a few examples:

first, yes, the decimator can't exist without a capital ship true. But in terms of simply the VSD attacking the Decimator which can attack and move without support.

2nd theres another thread about 2 Bs and a Transport vs a Cr90 too.

Second, do you want to show me a list example for mass squadron countering?

Here's an Anecdotal for you.

A Few weeks back up in Edmonton.

I played against Matt Damann...

I had a list that was basically Garm, MC80, Liberty, Two Transports, 6 Ys, 2Xs and a Hwk, or something along those lines... Essentially, Fighter-Heavy.

He had:

ISD

Gladiator II

Raider

Raider

Flotilla with the Ozzman.

I lost every squadron I had...

They got Instigator-Locked down, in such a way that Instigator itself was on the other side of a debris field... And thus, Immune to my Squadrons. Which then died to Flak-Fire from a Demolisher Glad-II...

This game was so close in the end, that I lost it on Kills and Points...

The only thing that had saved me was some 16 tokens I'd picked up on Superior Positions... Which again, barely let me win by some 20 points...

... so you won it? That doesn't sound very convincing.

Second, do you want to show me a list example for mass squadron countering?

Here's an Anecdotal for you.

A Few weeks back up in Edmonton.

I played against Matt Damann...

I had a list that was basically Garm, MC80, Liberty, Two Transports, 6 Ys, 2Xs and a Hwk, or something along those lines... Essentially, Fighter-Heavy.

He had:

ISD

Gladiator II

Raider

Raider

Flotilla with the Ozzman.

I lost every squadron I had...

They got Instigator-Locked down, in such a way that Instigator itself was on the other side of a debris field... And thus, Immune to my Squadrons. Which then died to Flak-Fire from a Demolisher Glad-II...

This game was so close in the end, that I lost it on Kills and Points...

The only thing that had saved me was some 16 tokens I'd picked up on Superior Positions... Which again, barely let me win by some 20 points...

... so you won it? That doesn't sound very convincing.

Not because of my Squadrons.

Any other Mission. That was a big loss. A BIG loss. By some 300 points.

Which moves me on to part of my argument - that there is no one factor that decides games. No single factor. Just having Squadrons doesn't guarantee a Win. Just having Ships doesn't Guarantee a Lost. There is a Lot more going than that.

But the argument is coming across as "134 points of Squadrons is Unbeatable." - Just because you took 134 points of Squadrons...

But I still like to think that, at the very least, Player Skill is involved....... Especially when my Opponents stomp me and my squadrons into the Dirt... because they were clearly more skilled than I was.

Second, do you want to show me a list example for mass squadron countering?

Here's an Anecdotal for you.

A Few weeks back up in Edmonton.

I played against Matt Damann...

I had a list that was basically Garm, MC80, Liberty, Two Transports, 6 Ys, 2Xs and a Hwk, or something along those lines... Essentially, Fighter-Heavy.

He had:

ISD

Gladiator II

Raider

Raider

Flotilla with the Ozzman.

I lost every squadron I had...

They got Instigator-Locked down, in such a way that Instigator itself was on the other side of a debris field... And thus, Immune to my Squadrons. Which then died to Flak-Fire from a Demolisher Glad-II...

This game was so close in the end, that I lost it on Kills and Points...

The only thing that had saved me was some 16 tokens I'd picked up on Superior Positions... Which again, barely let me win by some 20 points...

... so you won it? That doesn't sound very convincing.

Not because of my Squadrons.

Any other Mission. That was a big loss. A BIG loss. By some 300 points.

First f all, that also has to do with bidding the choice of objective: Superior Positions is considered the big 3 of squadron play, in that you have a very hard time losing due to how many points you make off of it. So, you did win it via squadrons gaining you points, because your list would definitely not have the power ship wise to tackle what he had. Sorry, that's squadrons.

Second, do you want to show me a list example for mass squadron countering?

Here's an Anecdotal for you.

A Few weeks back up in Edmonton.

I played against Matt Damann...

I had a list that was basically Garm, MC80, Liberty, Two Transports, 6 Ys, 2Xs and a Hwk, or something along those lines... Essentially, Fighter-Heavy.

He had:

ISD

Gladiator II

Raider

Raider

Flotilla with the Ozzman.

I lost every squadron I had...

They got Instigator-Locked down, in such a way that Instigator itself was on the other side of a debris field... And thus, Immune to my Squadrons. Which then died to Flak-Fire from a Demolisher Glad-II...

This game was so close in the end, that I lost it on Kills and Points...

The only thing that had saved me was some 16 tokens I'd picked up on Superior Positions... Which again, barely let me win by some 20 points...

... so you won it? That doesn't sound very convincing.

Not because of my Squadrons.

Any other Mission. That was a big loss. A BIG loss. By some 300 points.

First f all, that also has to do with bidding the choice of objective: Superior Positions is considered the big 3 of squadron play, in that you have a very hard time losing due to how many points you make off of it. So, you did win it via squadrons gaining you points, because your list would definitely not have the power ship wise to tackle what he had. Sorry, that's squadrons.

Okay.

Then there was the other 2 games of the day, that I lost.

And then there was the Tournament 4 weeks ago, where I was tabled every game...

The Nose-Punch Tournament winning list has Rhymer and 2 TIE Bombers...... That's certainly a bunch of squadrons right there...

Nits can be picked on both sides, m'friend.

I don't see them the way you do. I doubt I ever will. That doesn't make either of us wrong...... It just makes us screamers into the Void

I'll share my experience.

I've shut down a 127-point Rhymerball with Double Intel with 6 A-Wings. One of them was Tycho, of course. So...71 points of fighters. That was pre-Wave V/CC, so a modern version would be 77 points, and have Shara Bey in there too.

Of course, I still lost that game, because I was stupid and drove my Liberty into the front arcs of 2 Vic-IIs with Spinal Armaments...

I had activation advantage and deployment advantage too.

So: just to recap -

I had a Liberty, Salvation, a TRC-90, and 2 flotillas, and 6 squadrons. I lost to 2 Vics, a Gozanti, and a Rhymerball.

But I shut down the Rhymerball (both Intel sources dead, and the entire ball engaged) and lost because the 2 Vics were gunships.

If I had flown my ship better (IE - not into the front arc of 2 Vics!) I would have won. Probably - counterfactuals being difficult to judge and all that.

Point is - you can counter 134 points of squadrons with just about half of that. You won't kill them all, but you can stop them from murdering your ships. If you invest heavily into flak fire, you can even kill 134 points of enemy squadrons with about 70-80 of your own. Less than that and you're just looking at a holding action.

But that can still work. 53 points: 5 Ties + Valen Rudor (or 54 points, and make one of them Black Squadron). Not going to murder your opponents squads, but there's enough of them that they can block a Rhymerball from eating you alive. Or hold back a Norra-swarm. (Is that a name we can call it? I want to coin that as the new official name...)

Or take Chiraneau on a Gozanti, Mauler Mithel, Black Squadron, Zertik Strom, and a Tie Advanced. Extra points if you have a Victory with Warlord, H9s, and Ruthless Strategists nearby.

Or just try Jan Ors, 4 X-Wings, and Biggs. 90 points that can pull double duty after you eat their squadrons. Or drop it to 2 X-wings, put Gallant Haven on an AFIIA, and flak fire the enemy to death while they try to chew through you.

None of these are simple point-and-click "I win" buttons against a 134 point squadron force. Of course they aren't. If they were, then squadrons would be useless because it was child's play to counter them. But it isn't impossible to stop a huge squadron force with a screen.

I think, aside from "blind" and "irredeemably stubborn," there's certainly a third option, in that maybe you're taking all this a little more seriously than I am. Ease up, man. Nobody's writing a thesis here. You're putting a lot of effort into correcting an off-handed statement made to remind people that squadrons have -- for better or worse -- always been highlighted in Star Wars. You seem bound and determined to win an argument, here, when I'm just saying "Yeah, but don't forget squadrons/starfighters have always been the stars of the show."

We absolutely disagree with you that squadrons should be the star of the show.

In terms of the game, 2 B wings, 30points, do more damage than a 51 point Nebulon.

A decimator can kill a VSD on its own.

These are horrifically imbalanced.

Everyone keeps screaming that squadrons are the end all be all of Star Wars fleet combat. To that we say nay: we wanted big ships, we wanted ship. We didn't want to shove 10 squadrons around on the table. And you can't beat that currently.

Go ahead: Show me a list that has a strong time winning vs mass squadrons/fighters/bombers 8-10 squads, BCCs and Yavaris and Rieekan.

--

Also, he did basically "write a thesis" (off not the length of a real thesis lol). He studied the extra footage, the extra info, he wrote a big explanatory post.

We care a lot. And telling us its no big deal just really means, "shut up. the game is fine the way we like it now and not the way you like it".

But the reason i'm posting is cuz your examples are really not great.

2 Bwings vs The Nebulon B- you assert that for 21 less points, those Bwings do more (I'm going to assume you mean antiship) damage. Ok, sure, in a vacuum I guess thats true. But the game isn't played in a vacuum. You need to get those B's to their target and in practical terms this ALWAYS means some form of ship based support and probably also an intel squadron. By which point, depending on how you want to score it, you've spent compareable or far more points. Plus the tactical inflexibility created by needed to spam squadron commands somewhere. Which is another kind of cost.

Decimator can kill a VSD by itself- No, it can't. Assuming you get the speed three decimator into firing range on turn 2 (which assuming any circumstances save fighter ambush is as early as that is going to happen) and roll max damage (3) for five straight turns, since its just that one decimator that vsd will brace to 2 for five straight turns and live, redirecting to taste.

Tl;dr I don't want to disagree with your conclusion regarding squad balance atm, because although I believe its wrong I'm not totally sure about it. But if those examples are part of the argument then its time to draft it again.

Edit: like 10 posts between when i started writing this on the train and when it hit. I'm assuming i was ninja'd at some point.

Edit: like 10 posts between when i started writing this on the train and when it hit. I'm assuming i was ninja'd at some point.

Probably not, actually. Most of it was a back-and-forth about anecdotal evidence that ended with nothing conclusive either way. (No offense meant to either participant - anecdotal evidence can be important - but it cannot prove anything, by its very nature)

I'll share my experience.

I've shut down a 127-point Rhymerball with Double Intel with 6 A-Wings. One of them was Tycho, of course. So...71 points of fighters. That was pre-Wave V/CC, so a modern version would be 77 points, and have Shara Bey in there too.

Of course, I still lost that game, because I was stupid and drove my Liberty into the front arcs of 2 Vic-IIs with Spinal Armaments...

I had activation advantage and deployment advantage too.

So: just to recap -

I had a Liberty, Salvation, a TRC-90, and 2 flotillas, and 6 squadrons. I lost to 2 Vics, a Gozanti, and a Rhymerball.

But I shut down the Rhymerball (both Intel sources dead, and the entire ball engaged) and lost because the 2 Vics were gunships.

If I had flown my ship better (IE - not into the front arc of 2 Vics!) I would have won. Probably - counterfactuals being difficult to judge and all that.

Point is - you can counter 134 points of squadrons with just about half of that. You won't kill them all, but you can stop them from murdering your ships. If you invest heavily into flak fire, you can even kill 134 points of enemy squadrons with about 70-80 of your own. Less than that and you're just looking at a holding action.

But that can still work. 53 points: 5 Ties + Valen Rudor (or 54 points, and make one of them Black Squadron). Not going to murder your opponents squads, but there's enough of them that they can block a Rhymerball from eating you alive. Or hold back a Norra-swarm. (Is that a name we can call it? I want to coin that as the new official name...)

Or take Chiraneau on a Gozanti, Mauler Mithel, Black Squadron, Zertik Strom, and a Tie Advanced. Extra points if you have a Victory with Warlord, H9s, and Ruthless Strategists nearby.

Or just try Jan Ors, 4 X-Wings, and Biggs. 90 points that can pull double duty after you eat their squadrons. Or drop it to 2 X-wings, put Gallant Haven on an AFIIA, and flak fire the enemy to death while they try to chew through you.

None of these are simple point-and-click "I win" buttons against a 134 point squadron force. Of course they aren't. If they were, then squadrons would be useless because it was child's play to counter them. But it isn't impossible to stop a huge squadron force with a screen.

Actually those are great squadron plans to help!

I already use the Jan 5x variants. and 4 Awings, those do work so far.

The 90pts jan 5x variants I do recommend. Although, I had a game recently where I simply lost 2 Xs immediately to 2 Zs.

However, if by chance you end up unluckily losing a few squadrons at the start, the rest of your list can't possibly have any way of defeating the rest of the squadrons. Via intel and simple bomber damage, you're going to lose things before they fire any sort of AA dice.

"We", "We", "We", all the way home...

I'm not saying your argument is invalid, Blail (its not, and worth listening to)... But dang, the Hyperbole is strong with you

I'm trying to figure out what makes you assume 'we' means everyone on the forum, as opposed to 'Allwingsstandby and I'. or even 'everyone who also thinks squadrons aren't the focus of the game'.

Second, do you want to show me a list example for mass squadron countering?

First up, its how "We" is presented there. "We" do this. No listing of who you are talking about. "We" unattached is less explanatory than "AllWings and I", or even "We - Who do not like squadrons"...

It was presented - to me - in such a manner as someone standing up and making an impassioned speech on the manner... And in fact, I was applauding you for it - stating that I felt your argument had merit... (did you miss that?)

And on the list:

No point.

I take mass Squadrons all the time. Ask some of the Calgarians here (and even some of the Edmontonians).... I love squadrons, I take no less than 100 points of squadrons in the vast majority of my lists...

Doesn't matter.

I have a Win-Loss record that No-Sane person would attribute... What little manner of my success has come when I have eschewed a lot of squadrons for gimmicks (The Double Interdictor-Nose-Punch, for example).

In short:

I take all the squadrons because they're fun to me. I lose. Ergo, I cannot see them as Unbeatable, as you do. Different Metas, right?

All it does is highlight how uselessly pointless it is to attempt to take something that is compartmentalised ALL AROUND THE WORLD, and make it ONE SIMPLE STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER.

Kind like racial profiling, y'know?

It also depends on whether that applause is genuine or patronizing. And only you can tell that in your heart. Your intent is similarly unclear.

Also, you love squadrons, and most people who who love squadrons are having a good time with armada now.

Those of us who do not love squadrons.... aren't.

Even if we recognize they are an integral part of the game and won't go away.

The questions nowadays aren't even, can you make a no squadron list work, its can you make a only half points or 90 points list of squadrons work without focusing on killing things via the squadrons, and let gunships do heavy lifting.

Guys, the vsd wins every time

Because there are only 6 rounds and it is worth more points

Also, dont like squadrons? Run raiders or ablative ties (because you literally NEVER SEE ISDS IN COMBAT WITHOUT TIE FIGHTERS) and blow up the carriers before they get ya. Strategy game, you know?

I think it's all working as intended, frankly.

Armada is meant to model the space combat of Star Wars.

In Star Wars, starfighters are dangerous to capital ships.

In Star Wars, larger ships would need a way to counter and minimize the dangers that starfighters present.

In Star Wars, the best way to fight against starfighters is with more starfighters ("ship to ship").

In Star Wars, we see this play out in the actual strategies employed - ships and fleets brought large contingents of starfighters.

The "problem" being presented by squadrons in Armada ("I have​ to take squadrons to counter them") is the exact "problem" faced by the militaries in Star Wars.

Heck, look at Imperial strategy in particular. They, too, just wanted to "play only with the big ships", but were "forced" to bring starfighter squadrons en-masse in order to deal with their "meta" (the Rebellion's heavy use of squadrons).

And that's just the thematic side. The core mechanics of Armada, that it's had since the start, also support this.

Ever since the game started, we've effectively had two "scales" for combat: Ship-Scale and Squadron-Scale. They follow their own rules, and they have combat values that only really make sense within their own scale (ie X-Wings have more Hull than a Corvette).

From the very start, it's been set up so that ships do one or two dice of damage to squadrons, while squadrons themselves do three or four dice of damage to other squadrons (with the reverse also being true).

If you looked at Armada and said "Man, what a great game about big ships where it will certainly be a viable strategy to completely ignore squadrons," you were ignoring both the thematic source, and the actual core mechanics.

EDIT:​ Which isn't really to say anything of balance. Except that "I have to bring squadrons to counter squadrons" isn't​ a balance problem. If it's "I have to bring 130 points of squadrons to counter these 100​ points of squadrons", then​ it's clearly a balance problem. If it's "I can't bring 130 points of ships to counter these 100 points of squadrons", well yeah, that shouldn't be surprising anyone.

Honestly though, I think even in Star Wars, you do see smaller ships getting taken out by flak.

Do you, other than stationary emplacements (Death Star, Starkiller)? (I do honestly keep asking this, because I really can't think of any.)

And even then, we do see squadrons taken out by ships in Armada. Probably more frequently than we see anywhere else.

All the time. We see point defense weapons on the Executor and the shield generator base at Scarif get multiple successful kills, as well as the Finalizer in the Force Awakens.

We also see on several occasions the Millenium Falcon get chased down sometimes by multiple ISDs. Han Solo clearly doesn't want to get shot at by them, so we know it has to hurt if he gets hit.

On the other hand,

We're playing Star Wars Armada, a game about Star Wars fleet-scale space battles. We are not playing 19th Century Naval Engagements IN SPACE.

Again, squadrons are a huge part of Star Wars fleet battles.

But if I wanted squadrons to be the most important thing in the game, I'd play X-Wing. I'm paying $50 and 120 points for a big beautiful miniature of a Star Destroyer, with an impressive Battery and high hull. It is disappointing to say the least that Norra and a bomber clutch can wipe out all my facing shields by the end of the turn with stacked BCCs and Toryrn Farr... and the best thing the ISD can do on it's own is do "maybe" two points of damage to that massed fighter ball that, on each craft, has 5 or more hull.

"Oh, take Fighters of your own" is the response. Only thing is, Intel means the bombers are no longer engaged, and Rebel fighters can easily one-shot my space superiority TIEs. That answer is also just feeding how the game is won and lost by what's in your fighter ball more than anything else.

For all that, I don't desire sweeping changes to the game. What I want is more reasons for fighters to have pause when attacking capital ships. If Cluster Bombs hit every fighter in a firing arc, then we'd be talking. Right now Rebel fighters have nothing to fear from capital ships, except maybe Flichette Torps. And if they miss, a proper bomber list will make that 47 point Raider Vanish instantly. Problem solved, now every other capital ship in that list is open game.

I've faced a strong fighter ball for an opponent in nearly every game of Armada since wave 2 was released. I'm very tired of feeling I don't have a tool to effectively fight it without over-specializing.

I like your point here. I mean an ISD has tons of turbo laser emplacements. It's kinda silly that in an entire turn you could shoot at a group of squadrons, and only get to shoot with a couple of dice.

Honestly though, I think even in Star Wars, you do see smaller ships getting taken out by flak.

Do you, other than stationary emplacements (Death Star, Starkiller)? (I do honestly keep asking this, because I really can't think of any.)

And even then, we do see squadrons taken out by ships in Armada. Probably more frequently than we see anywhere else.

All the time. We see point defense weapons on the Executor and the shield generator base at Scarif get multiple successful kills, as well as the Finalizer in the Force Awakens.

We also see on several occasions the Millenium Falcon get chased down sometimes by multiple ISDs. Han Solo clearly doesn't want to get shot at by them, so we know it has to hurt if he gets hit.

On the other hand,

We're playing Star Wars Armada, a game about Star Wars fleet-scale space battles. We are not playing 19th Century Naval Engagements IN SPACE.

Again, squadrons are a huge part of Star Wars fleet battles.

But if I wanted squadrons to be the most important thing in the game, I'd play X-Wing. I'm paying $50 and 120 points for a big beautiful miniature of a Star Destroyer, with an impressive Battery and high hull. It is disappointing to say the least that Norra and a bomber clutch can wipe out all my facing shields by the end of the turn with stacked BCCs and Toryrn Farr... and the best thing the ISD can do on it's own is do "maybe" two points of damage to that massed fighter ball that, on each craft, has 5 or more hull.

"Oh, take Fighters of your own" is the response. Only thing is, Intel means the bombers are no longer engaged, and Rebel fighters can easily one-shot my space superiority TIEs. That answer is also just feeding how the game is won and lost by what's in your fighter ball more than anything else.

For all that, I don't desire sweeping changes to the game. What I want is more reasons for fighters to have pause when attacking capital ships. If Cluster Bombs hit every fighter in a firing arc, then we'd be talking. Right now Rebel fighters have nothing to fear from capital ships, except maybe Flichette Torps. And if they miss, a proper bomber list will make that 47 point Raider Vanish instantly. Problem solved, now every other capital ship in that list is open game.

I've faced a strong fighter ball for an opponent in nearly every game of Armada since wave 2 was released. I'm very tired of feeling I don't have a tool to effectively fight it without over-specializing.

I like your point here. I mean an ISD has tons of turbo laser emplacements. It's kinda silly that in an entire turn you could shoot at a group of squadrons, and only get to shoot with a couple of dice.

There we go.

Doesn't someone on the Death Star say "But they're Evading our Turbolasers" ?

Do we just, completely not understand the concept of two different scales (of weapons/ships/stats/etc)?

"Why don't they just shoot them with all of their turbolasers?"

I dunno. Let's ask Star Wars (or... the Wookiepedia. Star Wars, I'm informed, is not a real person):

"Turbolasers were the primary weapons of capital ships. They were used for ship-to-ship combat or, in some cases, planetary bombardment. A single blast from a turbolaser could completely incinerate a fully shielded starfighter; however, due to their slow turret traverse and an equally slow period of charging up and cooling down, using turbolasers against fighters proved to be highly ineffective because fighters were too fast and small for a good target lock due to a slower rate of fire than point-defense laser cannons. Turbolaser turrets installed on the first Death Star were unable to hit the nimble Rebel starfighters that were attacking the station during the Battle of Yavin, although they could hit starfighters that were following predictable trajectories, such as straight lines."

Yeah, killing some scrub like porkins in ANH or red 5 in rogue 1 doesnt really translate to squadron decimating powers

Also be really **** dumb if single ships cpuld kill bomber squadrons by themselves (raider excepted)

Because then why bother?

Yeah, killing some scrub like porkins in ANH or red 5 in rogue 1 doesnt really translate to squadron decimating powers

Also be really **** dumb if single ships cpuld kill bomber squadrons by themselves (raider excepted)

Because then why bother?

Well atm, its why bother with big ships at all. Heck why bother with ships at all. 134 squadrons and 3 transports and 1 nebulon and another small ship that totals 6 attack dice.

Who says they gotta kill them all. How about just not be total fodder for squadrons?

Yeah, killing some scrub like porkins in ANH or red 5 in rogue 1 doesnt really translate to squadron decimating powers

Also be really **** dumb if single ships cpuld kill bomber squadrons by themselves (raider excepted)

Because then why bother?

Well atm, its why bother with big ships at all. Heck why bother with ships at all. 134 squadrons and 3 transports and 1 nebulon and another small ship that totals 6 attack dice.

Who says they gotta kill them all. How about just not be total fodder for squadrons?

This is the point where I once again note that the Michigan Regionals were won by a fleet with a super decked out HMC80 and 4 A-Wings (2 of which were Shara and Tycho). This point seems to have been overlooked in the desire to continue crying on the internet, but actual competitive results disagree with both the claim that big ships don't work and that you need max squadrons to be effective.