I do not know if X-Wing, Armada, or Imperial Assault (Skirmish Mode) have retirement schedules.

There is no published "retirement schedule" for X-wing. Some might say this is one of X-wing's problems as it goes into its 10th wave. As a player, I like the fact that they continually attempt to keep all ships (new and old) relevant. This creates a lot more work for play testers, but creates an ever expanding game that makes it fun to return to old ships.

I honestly would be shocked if FFG did not follow this same idea with Destiny. Make the cards/dice right the first time and there is no need to retire them.

Too bad FFG rarely gets things right the first time. WotC still messes up on occasion, and they've been delivering the best product for 20+ years now. What hope do we have that anyone else will do better?

This thread is so cute. I love it when people with no Magic experience share their opinions, it truly is delightful.

Too bad FFG never gets things right the first time.

This thread is so cute. I love it when people with no Magic experience share their opinions, it's delightful.

I think its cute when people confuse their opinion for fact.

Also, this game IS NOT Magic. It is not trying to be, it doesn't even have the structure needed to be such a game. I doubt we see draft play without "draft kit" products (like Netrunner uses). The game and the early support documents that have been published along with it read similar to X-wing in nature. X-wing is a casual "beer and pretzels" game. Looks like Destiny is too.

You might want to re-read the rules, friend. If you got through the triggers section and didn't immediately see how much they borrowed from Magic, well, that tells me everything I need to know about your opinion .

I was thinking about it the last week. For it example: Hearthstone has a Core and cards Expansions like the last one streets of gadgetzan; and in the case of Destiny, when the advertisement Spirit of Rebellion it come in 2º quarter of 2017, and makes me ask: This is gonna to be like Mtg, expansions with 4 months of time and then go to shoe box because "this is not standar"? Will Have a Core that no rotate?

For what it's worth, the shortest amount of time ever a set was legal in Magic's Standard format was 18 months, to my understanding. The policy today that Magic uses is that each set is legal for approximately 24 months (2 years). Android: Netrunner is slated for their retirement schedule to keep sets legal for about 48 months (4 years). I don't think you'll have to worry about 4 month rotations.

Magic is an old game made by a different company and different game mechanics. This truly a case of apples and oranges here. Using Magic as a model is just as silly as all those game companies trying to use WoW as a model for their own MMO.

FFG has done a good job of addressing the meta in X-wing by changing the FQA and new releases to keep things fresh and different. The only thing that would really indicate a rotation is the sheer amount of cards they are releasing, nearly 500 a year, that would make a rotation make sense in several years. Nothing to worry about for now. Chances are, you'll be sick of the game and will want to stop playing it before any rotation is done.

It really doesn't matter if one is apples and the other is oranges. Magic is a great game that's stood the test of time for numerous and myriad reasons, all the ignorant commentary and bias notwithstanding. There's certainly something to be said for emulating the most popular and well-designed card game on the market. Rotating sets is just one aspect of the game, the benefits of which have already been stated. If you're not on board with that then I suspect you'll have some serious soul searching to do in the next 2-3 years.

MtG good or bad, doesn't make a difference.

You can see FFGs own reasonings for adding a rotation policy to their LCGs. Those reasons also apply to Destiny, more so even because Destony has a more aggressive release schedule.

X-wing does not have a rotation policy, but not many miniature games use rotation models. Look at X-wing big competition in that market. Both Warhammer and Warmachine use new editions to revitalize their games as opposed to rotation.

But to say because FFG doesn't use rotation in X-wing means they won't use it in Destiny is illogical because they do use rotation in their LCGs. And the LCG's are a far more analogous to Destiny then X-wing.

If you'd be shocked, flabbergasted, dismayed, or flummoxed by FFG putting out a rotation policy for this game then you should hold onto your butts.

Don't forget nonplussed, stymied, vexed, hoodwinked, snookered, rused, roused, aroused, irked, or verklempt.

It really doesn't matter if one is apples and the other is oranges. Magic is a great game that's stood the test of time for numerous and myriad reasons, all the ignorant commentary and bias notwithstanding. There's certainly something to be said for emulating the most popular and well-designed card game on the market. Rotating sets is just one aspect of the game, the benefits of which have already been stated. If you're not on board with that then I suspect you'll have some serious soul searching to do in the next 2-3 years.

Serious soul searching over a card game? That is a bit dramatic. I may have thought that way 20 years ago when I decide to leave magic for the most part, but really, home lands made that choice easy. The truth is magic is the Kardashians of card games. People play magic because people play magic. There have been far better card games to come out since Magic but simply lacked the critical mass to take off. It is really hard to get into a game, no matter how good, if no one plays it.

The FFG developers are flat out more talented than WotC people. While the sheer number of cards will eventually force a rotation of some kind, they will be better at handling the card base and be able to keep a larger number of cards in the game without it being broken, or at the very least they won't have cards needing banning before the ink is even dry.

"The FFG developers are flat out more talented than WotC people."

See this? Yeah, this is where you lose all credibility. FFG continues to stumble with their rules and templating after several years of making card games. What can most people say about Magic aside from the fact that they don't like it for one reason or another?

While being in love with something can be an amazing thing, when it is a card game, you might have some problems down the road. Magic is what it is and those of us that have been playing it on and off for 20 years know full well it's strengths and failings and how it can captivate someone a little too much. Least to say, Destiny isn't Magic.

You might want to re-read the rules, friend. If you got through the triggers section and didn't immediately see how much they borrowed from Magic, well, that tells me everything I need to know about your opinion .

And your comments show us all we need to know about you. So can we stop with all the Flippin bashing. This is not the place.

There will definitely be rotation, unless FFG has learned nothing from 25 years of CCG development.

The ultra-slow rotation that's currently choking Netrunner to death should be lesson enough for them.

i prefer ban list but rotations are a good way to keep broken combos out of the game

In very simple terms, LCG rotation is roughly every 4 years, but Destiny is coming out with cards at double the speed, so you'd expect any rotation to occur every 2 years or so?

But LCG core sets and deluxes don't rotate so....

And LCG rotation doesn't occur for the first time until the card pool has reached around 1,500 cards, which for destiny would be around 9 sets, so 3 years from now rotation starts, and then rotation occurs every 2 years?

MTG does what it does to sell more cards, and for no other reason.

They do not. They do rotations because that allows them to:

a) reset the playing field every once in a while to make room in the design space

b) limit the use of cards that would be problematic and create broken power creep comboes in the long run as more cards are added

c) not have to continuously keep every single set in print

Magic has so-called 'Eternal' formats that are not affected by rotations. Guess what? The meta for those formats is pretty stale even though the card pool is so much bigger. That's because with access to so many cards, you can build combinations that literally win the game by locking your opponent out of doing anything and by abusing unbreakable infinite loops and ability interactions that are not present in Standard play due to rotation. Also, the cost of getting into any of those formats competitively is several times higher than the cost of playing the rotating Standard format, because all the staple cards are no longer in print. For a two-color deck in Modern (the cheapest Eternal format), the optimal land suite alone will set you back around 300$ for around a dozen cards.

You know all those Magic cards you read about on the internet? The ones that are worth several hundred dollars up to a grand? Those are all cards that have rotated out of Standard play a long time ago. And those prices aren't due to people's nostalgia.

Also,

FFG does not have a history of doing this with their LCGs.

That is simply not true. All FFG LCGs have a competetive play rotation schedule.

(That none of the games thus far have ever lived long enough to hit a rotation is a different matter and might in of itself tell you something about the sustainability of the LCG format.)

So, wait... you're saying that all FFG LCGs have a play rotation, but that all of them are still on the first rotation? Isn't that the same as NOT having a play rotation?

game of thrones second edition

I strongly believe you won't have to worry about a "standard rotation" for a long, long while.

Magic: the Gathering is over 20 years old and the Standard format wasn't created until many years after Magic's first introduction (I'm still looking for an exact year they introduced the format [originally introduced as "Type 2"]. It's actually harder to find a date on that than I thought). Destiny is just over a month old and still finding it's footing among the world of CCGs. They're not going to rotate cards out of tournament play when the game still needs to take off. Heck, the first official FFG tournaments for Destiny haven't even happened yet (unless I missed something).

Standard was introduced into magic for the reasons Don_Silvaro listed above. Destiny does not have any of those problems at this point and most likely won't have those problems for a long time (or at all if we're lucky).

I went looking, and found an article from 2012 talking about the history of standard in MTG, as well as the reason TCGs need rotating formats. It states about a third of the way down the page, that magic had been around for 19 years at the time, then mentions stuff about people being mad about type 2 when it was created. Then it says 17 years later standard is the most popular format(not so much anymore haha). Which means it took 2 years for standard to come about for magic. Two years is pretty ideal for most TCGs to start rotating because at that point, there's a HUGE amount of cards.

Everyone else here should read this article since it also goes in to WHY a rotating format is good for a game.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/setting-standard-2012-08-06

MTG does what it does to sell more cards, and for no other reason.

They do not. They do rotations because that allows them to:

a) reset the playing field every once in a while to make room in the design space

b) limit the use of cards that would be problematic and create broken power creep comboes in the long run as more cards are added

c) not have to continuously keep every single set in print

Magic has so-called 'Eternal' formats that are not affected by rotations. Guess what? The meta for those formats is pretty stale even though the card pool is so much bigger. That's because with access to so many cards, you can build combinations that literally win the game by locking your opponent out of doing anything and by abusing unbreakable infinite loops and ability interactions that are not present in Standard play due to rotation. Also, the cost of getting into any of those formats competitively is several times higher than the cost of playing the rotating Standard format, because all the staple cards are no longer in print. For a two-color deck in Modern (the cheapest Eternal format), the optimal land suite alone will set you back around 300$ for around a dozen cards.

You know all those Magic cards you read about on the internet? The ones that are worth several hundred dollars up to a grand? Those are all cards that have rotated out of Standard play a long time ago. And those prices aren't due to people's nostalgia.

Also,

FFG does not have a history of doing this with their LCGs.

That is simply not true. All FFG LCGs have a competetive play rotation schedule.

(That none of the games thus far have ever lived long enough to hit a rotation is a different matter and might in of itself tell you something about the sustainability of the LCG format.)

So, wait... you're saying that all FFG LCGs have a play rotation, but that all of them are still on the first rotation? Isn't that the same as NOT having a play rotation?

game of thrones second edition

Putting out a new edition of the game isn't the same as rotating cards out. Similar net effect, but not the same thing.

It's safe to say that while FFG defined a rotation policy for LCGs roughly two years ago, they have yet to implement it. Updating AGoT to AGoT:2E wasn't a rotation so much as it was a reboot. We'll find out soon whether or not FFG plans on sticking to their rotation policy when the next Netrunner Cycle releases. Rotation does make sense and has certain advantages, but can be frustrating if handled improperly.

I'm not longer a MtG player, and haven't been for maybe 15+ years or more. My understanding is that expansions rotate out every year and that any expansion you buy will be legal for standard play for approximately two years. As has been mentioned, FFG LCG core sets and deluxe expansions never rotate out and cycle packs will rotate out every 4 years or so (6-7 full cycles or 36-42 expansion packs have to release before a rotation happens).

SO... from a value perspective and only considering standard play...

1. Magic the Gathering... all cards I buy become worthless after 2 years.

2. FFG LCGs... core sets and deluxe expansions never become worthless. Expansion packs become worthless after roughly 4 years, but can vary based on release rate.

Magic the Gathering clearly has a worse value proposition. The cards become worthless much quicker. Hopefully, Destiny's rotation style will match closer with FFG LCGs. I think a lot of people don't mind rotations, but also don't want their purchases to become worthless after only 2 years. A lot of people who DON'T play Magic cite the reason as the rotation schedule being way too aggressive. That's the reason none of my friends (all former players) play anymore. We all got tired of shelving our collections only to have to re-buy them every year. There are other reasons, but that's the main reason.

Magic cards aren't worthless after two years. Commander is one of the most popular formats, can (and tends to be) fairly casual, has a low barrier of entry at this point, and only a small handful of cards can't be played. The rest of Magic's entire card pool is completely legal. I won't even bother touching on the other eternal formats, which have already been neatly covered by someone else - and conveniently ignored by others, like yourself.

People who haven't played a game in 15 years really should stop throwing in their two cents about it. It's embarrassing.

I do not even play MtG, nor do I like MtG, but as a gamer I know a fair bit about it because of sheer osmosis (and slight research). The last time I played MtG was 2010.

Stating that MtG cards become worthless after they rotate out is a factually incorrect. You could have easily done any number of Google searches to almost instantly find out that information.

MtG supports formats beyond Standard. Within those formats larger segments of the card pool remain legal. The decks for those formats tend to be quite pricy, and tend to be made up of stuff that's been rotated out of Standard. Some cards increase in value when rotated out, others decrease. It's a matter of how they will fit in other formats.

You stating that MtG cards become worthless when rotated out is you just making stuff up. Frankly, it's bull.

I do not even play MtG, nor do I like MtG, but as a gamer I know a fair bit about it because of sheer osmosis (and slight research). The last time I played MtG was 2010.

Stating that MtG cards become worthless after they rotate out is a factually incorrect. You could have easily done any number of Google searches to almost instantly find out that information.

MtG supports formats beyond Standard. Within those formats larger segments of the card pool remain legal. The decks for those formats tend to be quite pricy, and tend to be made up of stuff that's been rotated out of Standard. Some cards increase in value when rotated out, others decrease. It's a matter of how they will fit in other formats.

You stating that MtG cards become worthless when rotated out is you just making stuff up. Frankly, it's bull.

Indeed. Again, the most expensive cards in Magic are cards that rotated long ago. Nothing in Standard ever comes close to the value of Eternal format staples, unless it is in itself a reprint of a card playable in Eternal formats.

Magic cards aren't worthless after two years. Commander is one of the most popular formats, can (and tends to be) fairly casual, has a low barrier of entry at this point, and only a small handful of cards can't be played. The rest of Magic's entire card pool is completely legal. I won't even bother touching on the other eternal formats, which have already been neatly covered by someone else - and conveniently ignored by others, like yourself.

People who haven't played a game in 15 years really should stop throwing in their two cents about it. It's embarrassing.

Attacking strangers on the internet is also embarrassing, but I'll let it slide. If you'll scroll up a bit, you'll note that I was talking about standard play. I'm not interested in fan created formats, adopted officially or not, that allow one to play with cards that are otherwise illegal in standard play.

I didn't say I haven't played ANY games in 15 years. I didn't say I haven't followed the game for 15 years. Who knows... maybe I even worked at a gaming store in the last 15 years (I did), which would give me some insight into the game without having to play it.

Ultimately, neither of our opinions matter at all though. Destiny isn't Magic. Magic is obviously popular, but there are many, many people out there who hate lots of things about it, including the aggressive rotation schedule for standard play. Many players are only interested in learning one play format and will usually default to the standard play format.

I do not even play MtG, nor do I like MtG, but as a gamer I know a fair bit about it because of sheer osmosis (and slight research). The last time I played MtG was 2010.

Stating that MtG cards become worthless after they rotate out is a factually incorrect. You could have easily done any number of Google searches to almost instantly find out that information.

MtG supports formats beyond Standard. Within those formats larger segments of the card pool remain legal. The decks for those formats tend to be quite pricy, and tend to be made up of stuff that's been rotated out of Standard. Some cards increase in value when rotated out, others decrease. It's a matter of how they will fit in other formats.

You stating that MtG cards become worthless when rotated out is you just making stuff up. Frankly, it's bull.

Sigh... monetarily yes. A sucker is born every minute. There will always be someone willing to pay $$$ for a slip of cardstock with some ink on it. I should have clarified. From a pure gaming standpoint, a card's value drops significantly when it can no longer be used in the dominant format. If there are two formats and a card is usable in both on Monday, but only in one on Tuesday, it's gaming value has dropped. You used to be able to use it all the time. Now, you can only use it some of the time. It will spend more time sitting on a shelf and less time sitting on a gaming table.

So, maybe not worthless, but worth less.

I do not even play MtG, nor do I like MtG, but as a gamer I know a fair bit about it because of sheer osmosis (and slight research). The last time I played MtG was 2010.

Stating that MtG cards become worthless after they rotate out is a factually incorrect. You could have easily done any number of Google searches to almost instantly find out that information.

MtG supports formats beyond Standard. Within those formats larger segments of the card pool remain legal. The decks for those formats tend to be quite pricy, and tend to be made up of stuff that's been rotated out of Standard. Some cards increase in value when rotated out, others decrease. It's a matter of how they will fit in other formats.

You stating that MtG cards become worthless when rotated out is you just making stuff up. Frankly, it's bull.

I do not even play MtG, nor do I like MtG, but as a gamer I know a fair bit about it because of sheer osmosis (and slight research). The last time I played MtG was 2010.

Stating that MtG cards become worthless after they rotate out is a factually incorrect. You could have easily done any number of Google searches to almost instantly find out that information.

MtG supports formats beyond Standard. Within those formats larger segments of the card pool remain legal. The decks for those formats tend to be quite pricy, and tend to be made up of stuff that's been rotated out of Standard. Some cards increase in value when rotated out, others decrease. It's a matter of how they will fit in other formats.

You stating that MtG cards become worthless when rotated out is you just making stuff up. Frankly, it's bull.

Sigh... monetarily yes. A sucker is born every minute. There will always be someone willing to pay $$$ for a slip of cardstock with some ink on it. I should have clarified. From a pure gaming standpoint, a card's value drops significantly when it can no longer be used in the dominant format. If there are two formats and a card is usable in both on Monday, but only in one on Tuesday, it's gaming value has dropped. You used to be able to use it all the time. Now, you can only use it some of the time. It will spend more time sitting on a shelf and less time sitting on a gaming table.

So, maybe not worthless, but worth less.

Your analysis focuses on the abstract "how many times is it possible to put this card on the table" as opposed to the "how many times is it worthwhile to put this card on the table". At that point, we should be arguing that all cards become worthless outside of sealed or draft, because they have the highest gaming value in the abstract if they can be played in sealed/draft, AND Standard and the eternal formats. Just finishing that one tournament destroyed their gaming value in the abstract given the popularity of sealed and drafts (at every convention I have been to, they have more total sealed/draft envents than constructed events and are willing to start them at times they would never start constructed, even my local FNMs seem to be more geared towards sealed and draft, making it much more dominant. Look at how big pre-release and release events are, neither of which is constructed).

A card may just be okay in standard, where the options it can combo with are restricted, but the card may shine when it can be played with a larger selection of other cards allowing for better combos or just in a format utilizing other deck restrictions or rules of play (EDH, 2HG, etc). So the card never saw Standard play but always saw eternal play (or only saw eternal play after it retired from standard and more cards were added to the eternal card pool, suddenly creating a new combo, or allowing enough time to pass for someone to uncover an interesting trick with the card) and thus lost no value from retiring or even increased in value after retiring. Or it was just so good in the eternal formats that even though it was also amazing in standard, retirement had no impact on price. Yes, the newest set, especially shortly after release, will probably see he highest prices for its cards at that time, but I would think (from just the cards I can think of off-hand) most cards (or at least most high-value cards, I think the same is also true of extreme low-value cards) did not see a large price drop from their price 1 year after their release in comparison to their value 1 year after they rotated out of Standard.