Magic cards aren't worthless after two years. Commander is one of the most popular formats, can (and tends to be) fairly casual, has a low barrier of entry at this point, and only a small handful of cards can't be played. The rest of Magic's entire card pool is completely legal. I won't even bother touching on the other eternal formats, which have already been neatly covered by someone else - and conveniently ignored by others, like yourself.

People who haven't played a game in 15 years really should stop throwing in their two cents about it. It's embarrassing.

Attacking strangers on the internet is also embarrassing, but I'll let it slide. If you'll scroll up a bit, you'll note that I was talking about standard play. I'm not interested in fan created formats, adopted officially or not, that allow one to play with cards that are otherwise illegal in standard play.

I didn't say I haven't played ANY games in 15 years. I didn't say I haven't followed the game for 15 years. Who knows... maybe I even worked at a gaming store in the last 15 years (I did), which would give me some insight into the game without having to play it.

Ultimately, neither of our opinions matter at all though. Destiny isn't Magic. Magic is obviously popular, but there are many, many people out there who hate lots of things about it, including the aggressive rotation schedule for standard play. Many players are only interested in learning one play format and will usually default to the standard play format.

I realize that we live in a post-fact era, but acknowledging that certain facts do exist and then choosing to ignore them anyway doesn't do much to strengthen your position here. You've been told three times now by more informed players than yourself that there are several viable and popular formats, an inconvenient fact that wholly undermines the only thing remotely approaching a reasonable criticism of rotating card sets. Please don't let there be a fourth.

technically that was a fourth....

I'll see myself out.....

Magic cards aren't worthless after two years. Commander is one of the most popular formats, can (and tends to be) fairly casual, has a low barrier of entry at this point, and only a small handful of cards can't be played. The rest of Magic's entire card pool is completely legal. I won't even bother touching on the other eternal formats, which have already been neatly covered by someone else - and conveniently ignored by others, like yourself.

People who haven't played a game in 15 years really should stop throwing in their two cents about it. It's embarrassing.

Attacking strangers on the internet is also embarrassing, but I'll let it slide. If you'll scroll up a bit, you'll note that I was talking about standard play. I'm not interested in fan created formats, adopted officially or not, that allow one to play with cards that are otherwise illegal in standard play.

I didn't say I haven't played ANY games in 15 years. I didn't say I haven't followed the game for 15 years. Who knows... maybe I even worked at a gaming store in the last 15 years (I did), which would give me some insight into the game without having to play it.

Ultimately, neither of our opinions matter at all though. Destiny isn't Magic. Magic is obviously popular, but there are many, many people out there who hate lots of things about it, including the aggressive rotation schedule for standard play. Many players are only interested in learning one play format and will usually default to the standard play format.

I realize that we live in a post-fact era, but acknowledging that certain facts do exist and then choosing to ignore them anyway doesn't do much to strengthen your position here. You've been told three times now by more informed players than yourself that there are several viable and popular formats, an inconvenient fact that wholly undermines the only thing remotely approaching a reasonable criticism of rotating card sets. Please don't let there be a fourth.

Jesus. I don't know why I let myself get suckered in by internet trolls with superiority complexes. I give up. You win the internet award for Magic the Gathering knowledge. Be sure to put that award somewhere the ladies (or gents, no judgment) will see it. It'll drive them wild.

Value is a funny thing. What you think has value has zero bearing on what the next guy thinks. I have a job. I have a family. I have real world responsibilities. I have other hobbies. I have relatively little time for gaming. The store I most frequently go to pretty much exclusively plays standard format MtG on the nights I'm there. As such, anything that isn't usable in standard is worthless... to me. Those same cards might be useful to someone else with different lives and gaming options, but for me they are worthless. I'm literally using an old Black Lotus as a bookmark for my tabletop gaming rulebooks. I get a kick out of how uncomfortable it makes the Magic crowd at the store. It's just a card. I bought it in a pack a kajillion years ago for however much packs cost back then... $1.50? I can't remember.

If Destiny also fragments into multiple formats such that I can't use my cards on the nights I can play OR cards rotate out so quickly (two years is pretty quick) that I'm repurchasing my entire collection every couple of years... I'm out. Lots of people will be out. If I was looking for Magic, I'd play Magic. I'm looking for a fun card game that ISN'T Magic.

FFG clearly thinks rotation is a good thing. They also clearly think that exempting core sets and major expansions from rotation is a good thing. They have ONLY commented on rotation as relates to their LCG products. We have NO IDEA if or how they'll handle rotation with Destiny. If we use their LCG strategy as a model, Awakenings might stay in print forever as a 'core set'. It might not. It's impossible to tell. We literally have zero information to go on. Everything we know is anecdotal and related to what other companies do or how FFG handles completely different product lines with different distribution models.

Magic cards aren't worthless after two years. Commander is one of the most popular formats, can (and tends to be) fairly casual, has a low barrier of entry at this point, and only a small handful of cards can't be played. The rest of Magic's entire card pool is completely legal. I won't even bother touching on the other eternal formats, which have already been neatly covered by someone else - and conveniently ignored by others, like yourself.

People who haven't played a game in 15 years really should stop throwing in their two cents about it. It's embarrassing.

Attacking strangers on the internet is also embarrassing, but I'll let it slide. If you'll scroll up a bit, you'll note that I was talking about standard play. I'm not interested in fan created formats, adopted officially or not, that allow one to play with cards that are otherwise illegal in standard play.

I didn't say I haven't played ANY games in 15 years. I didn't say I haven't followed the game for 15 years. Who knows... maybe I even worked at a gaming store in the last 15 years (I did), which would give me some insight into the game without having to play it.

Ultimately, neither of our opinions matter at all though. Destiny isn't Magic. Magic is obviously popular, but there are many, many people out there who hate lots of things about it, including the aggressive rotation schedule for standard play. Many players are only interested in learning one play format and will usually default to the standard play format.

I realize that we live in a post-fact era, but acknowledging that certain facts do exist and then choosing to ignore them anyway doesn't do much to strengthen your position here. You've been told three times now by more informed players than yourself that there are several viable and popular formats, an inconvenient fact that wholly undermines the only thing remotely approaching a reasonable criticism of rotating card sets. Please don't let there be a fourth.

Jesus. I don't know why I let myself get suckered in by internet trolls with superiority complexes. I give up. You win the internet award for Magic the Gathering knowledge. Be sure to put that award somewhere the ladies (or gents, no judgment) will see it. It'll drive them wild.

Value is a funny thing. What you think has value has zero bearing on what the next guy thinks. I have a job. I have a family. I have real world responsibilities. I have other hobbies. I have relatively little time for gaming. The store I most frequently go to pretty much exclusively plays standard format MtG on the nights I'm there. As such, anything that isn't usable in standard is worthless... to me. Those same cards might be useful to someone else with different lives and gaming options, but for me they are worthless. I'm literally using an old Black Lotus as a bookmark for my tabletop gaming rulebooks. I get a kick out of how uncomfortable it makes the Magic crowd at the store. It's just a card. I bought it in a pack a kajillion years ago for however much packs cost back then... $1.50? I can't remember.

If Destiny also fragments into multiple formats such that I can't use my cards on the nights I can play OR cards rotate out so quickly (two years is pretty quick) that I'm repurchasing my entire collection every couple of years... I'm out. Lots of people will be out. If I was looking for Magic, I'd play Magic. I'm looking for a fun card game that ISN'T Magic.

FFG clearly thinks rotation is a good thing. They also clearly think that exempting core sets and major expansions from rotation is a good thing. They have ONLY commented on rotation as relates to their LCG products. We have NO IDEA if or how they'll handle rotation with Destiny. If we use their LCG strategy as a model, Awakenings might stay in print forever as a 'core set'. It might not. It's impossible to tell. We literally have zero information to go on. Everything we know is anecdotal and related to what other companies do or how FFG handles completely different product lines with different distribution models.

He's right

Someone seems awfully confident that his views are shared by so many others. Lots of people are going to leave if FFG does something healthy for the extended life of its game, eh? Maybe there's an Internet award for baseless speculation, assumption, and confirmation bias. But I guess you're right, the big ol' gaming company is going to come in and take away your toys because, you know, multiple formats are mutually exclusive and there's no possible way that you could continue to play what you like, with who you like, in a world where cards occasionally rotate out of standard play. Poor you.

It's too early to tell, but I'm really hopeful that cards don't rotate out of "standard play". If that happens, I'm done. I'm not interested in a game where you might as well throw away your entire collection every year or so. It's one of the things I absolutely hate about Magic and the main reason I will never buy another pack.

You cant do that with how big the expansions are (170+ a set). And the reason for the need of standard play isnt just so new players have a springboard in getting into the game, but also to curb bad or toxic card interactions without needing a banlist (unless a legacy format is issued) or a hug FAQ errata bible. You DO NOT want this game to be like Yugioh and you DO NOT want this game's card effect economy to dry up because they cant make new cards because theyll interact poorly or unfairly with other cards. So if what you want is an LCG game, sell your cards now and play one of them instead because id rather not have this game die because new players either cant get in, or becase the meta is warped beyond recognition because they cant print new cards that dont have broken interactions with older ones.

Am I the only one here that sees this as a new game....that is like a MONTH old? The sky isn't falling yet folks.

In Magic, when a card rotates out of standard, if it does not have value in one of the other formats, it basically becomes worthless as no one is willing to give you actual cash for that card. Now many sites will still sell you those cards for cash but they are certainly not on their buy list. Left over stock happens and keeping the listing up doesn't cost anything and hey, you never know. With that said, some cards that leave standard still have value and can even gain in value over time, however for the most part, those cards lose most if not all their value.

There has been a huge blow back in Magic because it both got popular again really fast a few years ago and now all those people are leaving in droves as they don't want to re-ante up as most of their cards lose value. To counter act this a new unoffical format was introduce, Frontier, so those players can continue to play with their cards. This has brought value back to some cards that otherwise lost their value.

There is something here for FFG to learn. First CCG sucks, so what were thinking? Second, don't be so quick to rotate because the reason CCG suck is they are very expensive. People won't be so quick to re-ante up.

Part of the reason FFG won't say what they will do, apart from it being far to early to even address rotation, is they may be studying why Magic just collapsed and what can they do for that not to happen to their games.

I personally hope they don't address rotation for at least a year so they have a long time to think about it and enough time to see how this game plays out with several sets in print.

There has been a huge blow back in Magic because it both got popular again really fast a few years ago and now all those people are leaving in droves as they don't want to re-ante up as most of their cards lose value. To counter act this a new unoffical format was introduce, Frontier, so those players can continue to play with their cards. This has brought value back to some cards that otherwise lost their value.

People aren't leaving Magic because suddenly they realized rotation in Standard is a thing. People are leaving Magic because

a) Wizards tried to mess with the rotation schedule that was good for however many years, and decided to change it. They have since went back on the idea, but the damage was already done.

b) The last few Magic sets were largely viewed as blatant cash grabs due to the inclusion of "lottery cards" (cards that are extremely sought after and valuable reprints that are not even Standard legal, in foil and with exclusive art, but thrown into packs with no regards to the usual rarity scheme, ~one every 144 packs, ie. four boxes)

c) Over the last couple years, Wizards have been releasing an increasing amount of exclusive, limited print run product, mostly containing reprints of expensive and rare cards. Given how hard any of that product was to get a hold of, and how in fact most of the real value of that product is in a couple cards per set, this also is viewed as a blatant cash grab. If you think Destiny supply and pricing is a disaster, read up on the trainwreck that Modern Masters and Eternal Masters were.

d) The last few Magic sets contained cards that are out-of-whack in regards to power balance, to the point that Standard devolved into a deck that won every single time by firing off a combo that literally made you take control of your opponen's turn. Culminating in bannings of multiple cards in the Standard format, which is largely unprecedented (the last time anything was banned in Standard was in 2011).

All of that happening pretty much all at once means loads of people up in arms and throwing tantrums about leaving because Wizards is the devil.

Magic just collapsed

[citation needed]

There has been a huge blow back in Magic because it both got popular again really fast a few years ago and now all those people are leaving in droves as they don't want to re-ante up as most of their cards lose value. To counter act this a new unoffical format was introduce, Frontier, so those players can continue to play with their cards. This has brought value back to some cards that otherwise lost their value.

People aren't leaving Magic because suddenly they realized rotation in Standard is a thing. People are leaving Magic because

a) Wizards tried to mess with the rotation schedule that was good for however many years, and decided to change it. They have since went back on the idea, but the damage was already done.

b) The last few Magic sets were largely viewed as blatant cash grabs due to the inclusion of "lottery cards" (cards that are extremely sought after and valuable reprints that are not even Standard legal, in foil and with exclusive art, but thrown into packs with no regards to the usual rarity scheme, ~one every 144 packs, ie. four boxes)

c) Over the last couple years, Wizards have been releasing an increasing amount of exclusive, limited print run product, mostly containing reprints of expensive and rare cards. Given how hard any of that product was to get a hold of, and how in fact most of the real value of that product is in a couple cards per set, this also is viewed as a blatant cash grab. If you think Destiny supply and pricing is a disaster, read up on the trainwreck that Modern Masters and Eternal Masters were.

d) The last few Magic sets contained cards that are out-of-whack in regards to power balance, to the point that Standard devolved into a deck that won every single time by firing off a combo that literally made you take control of your opponen's turn. Culminating in bannings of multiple cards in the Standard format, which is largely unprecedented (the last time anything was banned in Standard was in 2011).

All of that happening pretty much all at once means loads of people up in arms and throwing tantrums about leaving because Wizards is the devil.

I don't see a problem with b, there not needed for standard play for being banned and are just alt arts

Did I just accidentaly stumble into a MTG-forum here? I could have sworn I was on the FFG Destiny forums just a few clicks ago...

Did I just accidentaly stumble into a MTG-forum here? I could have sworn I was on the FFG Destiny forums just a few clicks ago...

Didn't you hear? ALL new card games must either follow the MtG model or else the world collapses.

Did I just accidentaly stumble into a MTG-forum here? I could have sworn I was on the FFG Destiny forums just a few clicks ago...

If you're going to have a discussion about the future of a given card game, it's kind of hard to avoid including the one that's lasted over two decades. The success of Magic is hardly an accident, and yet some would have us believe that Destiny will be better served by ignoring that success. Magic's share of the conversation, at least, would have been a lot smaller without the knee-jerk bias and ignorance that seems to follow whenever its name is uttered on these forums.

It has nothing to do with having to follow in MtG footsteps, it has to do with looking at FFGs own polices and reasoning behind it.

Destiny isn't going to have a rotation just because MtG does. Destiny is going to have a rotation because FFGs LCGs do, and the reasoning FFG put forth in those cases apply equally if not more in the case of Destiny.

You, and others, we're completely oblivious to the fact that FFG has a rotation policy in place for the LCGs.

If you really think that Destiny won't have a rotation rather then using MtG as some weird boogyman, how about you look at the reasons FFG had for creating a rotation policy for the LCGs and maybe dispute whether they apply to Destiny.

You, as much as anybody, have made this a conversation about MtG as you went to the tried and true bash MtG well when confronted with FFG related information that didn't fit your narrative.

That your statements in regards to MtG are farsical is secondary.

Did I just accidentaly stumble into a MTG-forum here? I could have sworn I was on the FFG Destiny forums just a few clicks ago...

Sadly there are many inside-the-box thinkers on this forum and that box seems to be a magic deck box.

If the 'box' represents 20+ years of successful game-building then what does FFG stand to gain by ignoring it? The continued patronage of an obstinate and vocal minority ? I don't think that outweighs the losses they'd incur by failing to protect the future health and integrity of their game. There'll be a hundred more open-minded players willing to buy Destiny product for every one of you that leaves.

Don't ever stand why people hate limiting the card pool so much. It for the good of the game that it happens. The isn't many other options then adding a rotation. Could have power creep, but that seems worse then a set rotation. Large amount of banning is to unpredictable, and leave to many holes for potential broken combos to appear.


Other option is to avoid power creep and not to remove cards from the pool, which is terrible. New sets would come out, and only 1% would be used. The decks would always be the same. Eventually you hit sets where 0 new cards are played.

I think for the most part everyone agrees there will be some form of rotation for Star Wars Destiny. FFG needs an affordable price point to get a new group of players into Star Wars Destiny after a few years of released product. This and game balance was the rational on why they introduce rotation to the LCG.

I guess we'll see how FFG handles Star Wars Destiny product line in the future.

I understand the need for rotation but FFG need to be careful with how they go about it when it comes to the characters. It wouldn't be in the games best interest if, following the phasing out of a set, players were unable to field their favourite characters because they are no longer 'legal'.

Yeah, it's get tricky since this is a collectible format. As stated before maybe they have some different formats to accommodate both the collector and new players.

Or maybe it's not an immediate issue depending on how long FFG has this IP. I would be curious on how long FFG has the Star Wars IP for. I would assume at least until movie 9 releases with the contract extension they had awhile ago. At least a good 3 years.

Yeah, it's get tricky since this is a collectible format. As stated before maybe they have some different formats to accommodate both the collector and new players.

Or maybe it's not an immediate issue depending on how long FFG has this IP. I would be curious on how long FFG has the Star Wars IP for. I would assume at least until movie 9 releases with the contract extension they had awhile ago. At least a good 3 years.

Well, X-Wing is one of the highest selling (if not the highest) table top miniatures game out there. I believe it has overtaken Warhammer 40k. I can't imagine Disney cancelling such a lucrative (presumably) license. FFG appears to be "taking care of" the IP quite well.

Not everything is always a guarantee. FFG might find the IP not as lucrative for the license cost, etc. We will see what happens in the next couple of years.

As for X-Wing, I've been in it since Wave 1. It's starting to get a little cumbersome in terms of cost for getting new players in and some of card/upgrades combos is getting a little more complex/gimmicky.

I understand the need for rotation but FFG need to be careful with how they go about it when it comes to the characters. It wouldn't be in the games best interest if, following the phasing out of a set, players were unable to field their favourite characters because they are no longer 'legal'.

You're going to see multiple versions of many characters anyway. Specifically the core movie characters.

Ayep. This is me.