Oh yes, there are some positives to the Lamdba however they are few. I have flown the baffle version extensively and it does aid the lamdba if your opponent decides not to shoot it down first. The lambda even with baffles is not good enough to qualify as a full third ship in a 3-ship list. Anyone knows that if the aces die there is no chance for the shuttle to finish off whatever is left. Any other ship has an infinitely better chance of winning vs any other ship 1v1 than the Lambda.

Lambda vs Hwk I would bet on the Lambda

Not sure I would, and that's the sad part.

HWK gets behind the Lambda and the fact the Lambda can only red hard turn 2 is going to get it killed. This is of course assuming the HWK can survive the initial pass....

If it's HWK with upgrades to put it up to around 21 points (like any turret/crew) then the HWK will likely crush the Lambda.

Oh yes, there are some positives to the Lamdba however they are few. I have flown the baffle version extensively and it does aid the lamdba if your opponent decides not to shoot it down first. The lambda even with baffles is not good enough to qualify as a full third ship in a 3-ship list. Anyone knows that if the aces die there is no chance for the shuttle to finish off whatever is left. Any other ship has an infinitely better chance of winning vs any other ship 1v1 than the Lambda.

Lambda vs Hwk I would bet on the Lambda

If you see a naked HWK on a table you have entered the twilight zone.

Wonder if a Most Wanted list would help.

Oh yes, there are some positives to the Lamdba however they are few. I have flown the baffle version extensively and it does aid the lamdba if your opponent decides not to shoot it down first. The lambda even with baffles is not good enough to qualify as a full third ship in a 3-ship list. Anyone knows that if the aces die there is no chance for the shuttle to finish off whatever is left. Any other ship has an infinitely better chance of winning vs any other ship 1v1 than the Lambda.

Lambda vs Hwk I would bet on the Lambda

Range restrictions are the way forward. Both Manaroo and Palp have potentially game-breaking utility. Making it range 1-2 or something would help I think. That way the shuttle/Manaroo can't simply run and hide and have to stay with the action.

Range restrictions are the way forward. Both Manaroo and Palp have potentially game-breaking utility. Making it range 1-2 or something would help I think. That way the shuttle/Manaroo can't simply run and hide and have to stay with the action.

True. Range restrictions have the power to limit every cool ability up to nonsenseless.

How cool would Jendon be if his ability wouldn't have range restrictions. But limited to range 1 its almost completely useless.

Same goes for Yorr, he is ok, without range restrictions he would be just superb.

Same goes for all HWK pilots, while range 3 is quite good.

If I won world's:

"Special Assignment" EPT, points undetermined

Select a crew card controlled by your opponent, that card is given the "High Value Target" condition. If the ship carrying this crew is destroyed, add one stress to each opposing ship for every two squad points this crew card costs (round down).

The problem with saying Palpatine is balanced because of the number of ships that become unplayable without it is that you are in fact admitting it's OP. Upgrades that are auto include on specific ships are undesirable in most cases but acceptable. This is not that, you're talking a 3rd of your list to bring him along.

The problem with this is that if left as is all future Imperial ships and upgrades will need to be factored for Palpatine. Imperial list building will be 1/3rd less then Rebels or Scum. This is bad. We're seeing some list without Palp, and Hux don't seem that bad, so a nerf is probably not needed. But if he, or Manaroo for that matter, become auto includes they should probably be nerfed just for the sake of variety.

It's just bad design to have one ship or one upgrade that's absolutely required to be competitive.

I agree with everything you said here, and this is specifically why I have never said that anyship on the Imperial side would be unplayable without Palpatine. It just isn't true. Even the lowly lambda still gets to be a beefy support ship. I stand by the idea that every single Imperial ship (save maybe the punisher) is playable in a competitive setting. That's with or without Palpatine (autothrusters on the other hand...).

Honestly I think the biggest offenders for "difficult to use without this upgrade" are rebel ships that like the regen astromechs. That's just my experience (read: inexperience) though.

So I made a rough theoretical most wanted list with the usual suspects (Biggs, Manaroo, Palp, TLT, mindlink) and took a look at the Seattle Regional from list juggler and this is what I found out.

• Both top and runner used 4 upgrade/pilot cards on that list.
• One Top 4 only used 2 cards (but one of them was from the runner up)
• One top 4 didn't use any but was a 3 K-wing build without TLTs (not uncommon).

If said list was applied, the top list would have to be overhauled because it didn't have enough unnecessary upgrades. The runner and the top 4 would just have to drop an upgrade or two like seismic charge or stress-bot.

I think taking the top 5 (or top 10) power cards (pilot and upgrade) and apply a temporary 1 point increase to them is reasonable for balancing out the meta and give the developers some design space not to mention a flexible tool to retroactively correct some errors rather than just pen and in erratas which FFG had avoided up until the last FAQ.

If I won world's:

"Special Assignment" EPT, points undetermined

Select a crew card controlled by your opponent, that card is given the "High Value Target" condition. If the ship carrying this crew is destroyed, add one stress to each opposing ship for every two squad points this crew card costs (round down).

Eh, just take A Score To Settle. 0 Point EPT, change focus to crit - and for a support type ship like Manaroo or a PalpShuttle they aren't always likely to be getting the chance to use the flip.

Palp isnt a problem at all. Hes annoying but hes never a gamebreaker, you can approach his lists a multitude of ways.

Dengaroo is a problem to me. You have to face that list very specifically or you lose since it flatout ignores half the game. Im not a fan of lists that are so good you have to outplay your opponent LEAGUES above what they normally play at to beat it, and Palp is not making a lists that high.

Side note: i never use palp. I rather distractions instead of banking on a single die mod to save my ships.

I always felt both lists act largely the same on thw meta: they are gatekeepers.

You either have the tools to deal with them (a way to punch through Palp supported defenses and eiyher damage to eliminate Dengar or speed to eliminate Manaroo) or your list isn't good enough to compete.

I've only basically skimmed through the thread just now, but from what I've heard about older waves of X-Wing in generally you always have gatekeepers. There will always be an option, either obvious or not which people will figure out, and take, and when they do everybody else has to figure out how to deal with them. New material will come out or counter strategies will be devised, that stuff will get suppressed and it moves on, and if the counter-tactics become suppressed they can resurge. But ultimately, if you ban or whittle at certain lists which happen to be hot during a season, you're assuredly eventually just going to slam into the law of unintended consequences. Obviously, FFG has hit that wall before, but they have it in their power to adjust the rules if this becomes an undue problem. But, if you say, ban list palpatine or manaroo or mindlink for a season even then you force a style of list to just drop out of the meta, and then people will just fly the dominant strategies from before those cards were around. And those strategies might be less diverse, like say, TLT. Say what you will about the popular "gamebreak" cards - they are a single element that while critical to the list allows for a LOT of variation on the rest of the contents and the exact tactics and flying styles.

Nor, I think, should competitive level X-Wing be a situation where you can fly literally anything. That takes out the listbuilding portion of the game. You need to have the knowledge and skill to pick the right pilots, ships and upgrades to synergize to take into the match. It's not like Dengaroo appeared out of thin air, that was a list which required specific upgrade selection and must be flown a certain way. There's some real skill in that.

Anyway, basically, I think there will always be a floor at certain level of play - even if you strip newer layers on top, you'll just find more floor limitations below which some stuff wont just work. And I think if you lower the specific floor, you won't necessarily invite diversity like you think - less options will just likely lead to the outcome of simpler dominant strategies. Then you have your problem all over again.

Palp isnt a problem at all. Hes annoying but hes never a gamebreaker, you can approach his lists a multitude of ways.

Dengaroo is a problem to me. You have to face that list very specifically or you lose since it flatout ignores half the game. Im not a fan of lists that are so good you have to outplay your opponent LEAGUES above what they normally play at to beat it, and Palp is not making a lists that high.

Side note: i never use palp. I rather distractions instead of banking on a single die mod to save my ships.

I always felt both lists act largely the same on thw meta: they are gatekeepers.

You either have the tools to deal with them (a way to punch through Palp supported defenses and eiyher damage to eliminate Dengar or speed to eliminate Manaroo) or your list isn't good enough to compete.

So what do you think if say Manaroo and Emperor Palpatine costed one more point? Would that make an effect.

IMHO not so much, but making cards that get splashed like mindlink and TLT will have a larger effect if they costed one more point.

Palp isnt a problem at all. Hes annoying but hes never a gamebreaker, you can approach his lists a multitude of ways.

Dengaroo is a problem to me. You have to face that list very specifically or you lose since it flatout ignores half the game. Im not a fan of lists that are so good you have to outplay your opponent LEAGUES above what they normally play at to beat it, and Palp is not making a lists that high.

Side note: i never use palp. I rather distractions instead of banking on a single die mod to save my ships.

I always felt both lists act largely the same on thw meta: they are gatekeepers.

You either have the tools to deal with them (a way to punch through Palp supported defenses and eiyher damage to eliminate Dengar or speed to eliminate Manaroo) or your list isn't good enough to compete.

So what do you think if say Manaroo and Emperor Palpatine costed one more point? Would that make an effect.

IMHO not so much, but making cards that get splashed like mindlink and TLT will have a larger effect if they costed one more point.

For Palp you negatively affect some lists (for example Commonwealth Defenders are 100 points) but not significantly IMO.

Range restrictions are the way forward. Both Manaroo and Palp have potentially game-breaking utility. Making it range 1-2 or something would help I think. That way the shuttle/Manaroo can't simply run and hide and have to stay with the action.

I rather would say most other support ships suffer from their range restriction and that is why Palp and Manaroo are the only two mainstream support ships.

Range restrictions are the way forward. Both Manaroo and Palp have potentially game-breaking utility. Making it range 1-2 or something would help I think. That way the shuttle/Manaroo can't simply run and hide and have to stay with the action.

I rather would say most other support ships suffer from their range restriction and that is why Palp and Manaroo are the only two mainstream support ships.

Strange, I thought it was fashionable to moan about x/7 now.

As I've said every time this subject has come up, if you really have so much trouble dealing with a single die modification a turn with a minimum 29pt investment to get it, perhaps the problem lies somewhere other than Palpatine.

He's been in the game for over a year, and FFG have done nothing to alter him, which suggests they do not agree that he warps the game the same way the original Phantom or triple Jumpmasters did. Not to mention the fact that only recently we had the first 'change upgrade card text by FAQ' within which the Emperor was nowhere to be seen, yet other long-standing issues (the M3-A, Jumpmasters, etc) were resolved.

Furthermore, the minimum spend to get Palpatine in a list also comes with the caveat that you have to fly the Lambda well, and that may well be one of the toughest skills in the game. Palp's one die result a turn is not worth 29pts, so the shuttle needs to achieve more for you in a game than that. Also, consider the general escalation of firepower as of late - killing a 10hp, 1 AGI ship is not going to take all that long if you focus on it, and certainly not as long as it used to.

Of course, you could put Palp on a Decimator instead, but that's a minimum 48pt investment (and let's face it, no one is taking a Patrol Leader for this) on top of whatever other tools you give said Decimator to make it a worthwhile inclusion in the list other than just to carry the Emperor (which is not economical or sensible at all) - then that is more than half your list invested in a ship that can only benefit from half of Palp's ability (unless you're Kenkirk, and if you are then you arn't RAC, which everyone seems to say is the best choice for the Emperor), and that may well die faster than the shuttle.

As for Manaroo, I don't believe the problem lies solely with her lack of range limit - it's a combination of factors (including that lack of range limit) that come together in the Dengar/Manaroo list in order to boost Dengar to such game-breaking levels of efficiency. It's a list I personally dislike (because it ignores so much of the established game and requires such a specific approach to defeat), but I don't think it's broken or that Manaroo should suffer exclusively for it - certainly tools and lists have emerged that can deal with it, and it is my understanding that its popularity is waning. Manaroo in other lists does not attract anywhere near the same ire, because the other ships in the list are not capable of single-handedly taking apart the opponent and ignoring so many game elements (stress, arc, etc) while she runs for it.

So, in summary, the meta does not require anything drastic to happen to Palpatine or Manaroo. Certainly care needs to be taken when introducing abilities that do not have range restrictions, but there is no need to exclude them altogether, and I think the 'Nerf Palpatine!' club should close it's doors.

Palp isnt a problem at all. Hes annoying but hes never a gamebreaker, you can approach his lists a multitude of ways.

Dengaroo is a problem to me. You have to face that list very specifically or you lose since it flatout ignores half the game. Im not a fan of lists that are so good you have to outplay your opponent LEAGUES above what they normally play at to beat it, and Palp is not making a lists that high.

Side note: i never use palp. I rather distractions instead of banking on a single die mod to save my ships.

I always felt both lists act largely the same on thw meta: they are gatekeepers.

You either have the tools to deal with them (a way to punch through Palp supported defenses and eiyher damage to eliminate Dengar or speed to eliminate Manaroo) or your list isn't good enough to compete.

So what do you think if say Manaroo and Emperor Palpatine costed one more point? Would that make an effect.

IMHO not so much, but making cards that get splashed like mindlink and TLT will have a larger effect if they costed one more point.

Increasing either cost wouldnt do much since both lists involving those characters are VERY often under 100pts anyway.

Hell ive seen Dengaroo lists with a 9pt bid. Literally any other list i would have felt like i needed to shift something around because thats a big point gap, but Dengaroo is so broken it doesnt care.

Strange, I thought it was fashionable to moan about x/7 now.

As I've said every time this subject has come up, if you really have so much trouble dealing with a single die modification a turn with a minimum 29pt investment to get it, perhaps the problem lies somewhere other than Palpatine.

He's been in the game for over a year, and FFG have done nothing to alter him, which suggests they do not agree that he warps the game the same way the original Phantom or triple Jumpmasters did. Not to mention the fact that only recently we had the first 'change upgrade card text by FAQ' within which the Emperor was nowhere to be seen, yet other long-standing issues (the M3-A, Jumpmasters, etc) were resolved.

Furthermore, the minimum spend to get Palpatine in a list also comes with the caveat that you have to fly the Lambda well, and that may well be one of the toughest skills in the game. Palp's one die result a turn is not worth 29pts, so the shuttle needs to achieve more for you in a game than that. Also, consider the general escalation of firepower as of late - killing a 10hp, 1 AGI ship is not going to take all that long if you focus on it, and certainly not as long as it used to.

Of course, you could put Palp on a Decimator instead, but that's a minimum 48pt investment (and let's face it, no one is taking a Patrol Leader for this) on top of whatever other tools you give said Decimator to make it a worthwhile inclusion in the list other than just to carry the Emperor (which is not economical or sensible at all) - then that is more than half your list invested in a ship that can only benefit from half of Palp's ability (unless you're Kenkirk, and if you are then you arn't RAC, which everyone seems to say is the best choice for the Emperor), and that may well die faster than the shuttle.

As for Manaroo, I don't believe the problem lies solely with her lack of range limit - it's a combination of factors (including that lack of range limit) that come together in the Dengar/Manaroo list in order to boost Dengar to such game-breaking levels of efficiency. It's a list I personally dislike (because it ignores so much of the established game and requires such a specific approach to defeat), but I don't think it's broken or that Manaroo should suffer exclusively for it - certainly tools and lists have emerged that can deal with it, and it is my understanding that its popularity is waning. Manaroo in other lists does not attract anywhere near the same ire, because the other ships in the list are not capable of single-handedly taking apart the opponent and ignoring so many game elements (stress, arc, etc) while she runs for it.

So, in summary, the meta does not require anything drastic to happen to Palpatine or Manaroo. Certainly care needs to be taken when introducing abilities that do not have range restrictions, but there is no need to exclude them altogether, and I think the 'Nerf Palpatine!' club should close it's doors.

*Eyerolling* It is not about being inable to beat Palpatine, the problem is that some of us would like to play certain ships that just can't have the teeth to punch through Palpatine'd defense (that goes on top of the already highly powercrept ace-defense).

Strange, I thought it was fashionable to moan about x/7 now.

As I've said every time this subject has come up, if you really have so much trouble dealing with a single die modification a turn with a minimum 29pt investment to get it, perhaps the problem lies somewhere other than Palpatine.

He's been in the game for over a year, and FFG have done nothing to alter him, which suggests they do not agree that he warps the game the same way the original Phantom or triple Jumpmasters did. Not to mention the fact that only recently we had the first 'change upgrade card text by FAQ' within which the Emperor was nowhere to be seen, yet other long-standing issues (the M3-A, Jumpmasters, etc) were resolved.

Furthermore, the minimum spend to get Palpatine in a list also comes with the caveat that you have to fly the Lambda well, and that may well be one of the toughest skills in the game. Palp's one die result a turn is not worth 29pts, so the shuttle needs to achieve more for you in a game than that. Also, consider the general escalation of firepower as of late - killing a 10hp, 1 AGI ship is not going to take all that long if you focus on it, and certainly not as long as it used to.

Of course, you could put Palp on a Decimator instead, but that's a minimum 48pt investment (and let's face it, no one is taking a Patrol Leader for this) on top of whatever other tools you give said Decimator to make it a worthwhile inclusion in the list other than just to carry the Emperor (which is not economical or sensible at all) - then that is more than half your list invested in a ship that can only benefit from half of Palp's ability (unless you're Kenkirk, and if you are then you arn't RAC, which everyone seems to say is the best choice for the Emperor), and that may well die faster than the shuttle.

As for Manaroo, I don't believe the problem lies solely with her lack of range limit - it's a combination of factors (including that lack of range limit) that come together in the Dengar/Manaroo list in order to boost Dengar to such game-breaking levels of efficiency. It's a list I personally dislike (because it ignores so much of the established game and requires such a specific approach to defeat), but I don't think it's broken or that Manaroo should suffer exclusively for it - certainly tools and lists have emerged that can deal with it, and it is my understanding that its popularity is waning. Manaroo in other lists does not attract anywhere near the same ire, because the other ships in the list are not capable of single-handedly taking apart the opponent and ignoring so many game elements (stress, arc, etc) while she runs for it.

So, in summary, the meta does not require anything drastic to happen to Palpatine or Manaroo. Certainly care needs to be taken when introducing abilities that do not have range restrictions, but there is no need to exclude them altogether, and I think the 'Nerf Palpatine!' club should close it's doors.

*Eyerolling* It is not about being inable to beat Palpatine, the problem is that some of us would like to play certain ships that just can't have the teeth to punch through Palpatine'd defense (that goes on top of the already highly powercrept ace-defense).

TBF, if you don't have the firepower to punch through a palp shuttle, you're probably building the ship wrong

Why do I feel like if Palp was removed, we would instantly start a new conversation about "liking to play certain ships" which can't punch through whatever the next thing is? Or probably technically the previous thing, since as I've said above, banlisting is regressive.

I started listening to the podcast on my way to work this morning.

Palpatine is a minimum of 28 points, and he only works once per round. I just have a hard time thinking he's _that_ bad.

It's not that he's so OP, but he's meta warping. How many people bother to take an Imperial list without Palpatine? Not many is the answer. Do we really want to have a meta where the Emperor is taken in 90% of all tournament lists and in 98% of all Top 16 lists?

It's not that The Emperor is so OP that he needs a nerf. It's more that the card is so good that it's stupid to not take it in a list. That's meta warping and pretty much defines what you have to take in Imperial to be effective. So, if Triple U-boats was nerfed for the same reason, why not The Emperor? At least, that's what's said in the podcast.

*Eyerolling* It is not about being inable to beat Palpatine, the problem is that some of us would like to play certain ships that just can't have the teeth to punch through Palpatine'd defense (that goes on top of the already highly powercrept ace-defense).

Could you name some examples of ships that are being kept out of the game specifically by Palp-defences? As Fickle points about above, would any of those ships struggle to damage the shuttle itself?

Anything that can't break through all that defence (Defenders, Interceptors, Adv. Prototypes etc) solo is unlikely to do so whether Palp is there or not. If you don't have enough guns to focus fire (since no defence will last indefinitely, least of all Palpatine), then you minimise the impact of the other Aces (bump them, stress them, ion them, tractor them, auto-damage them - there are a lot of options available) while getting the Emperor off the board - as I covered before, a 1 AGI 10HP ship is no daunting prospect even for TIE Fighters.

Any turn where Palpatine has been used for defence instead of generating a free Crit, you're ahead. Any turn where the shuttle hasn't done anything besides use that one die mod, it hasn't made a 29pt contribution and so you're ahead. Any turn where Palp doesn't get used at all by denial of opportunity, you're ahead.

Clearly FFG do not agree that Palpatine is a disproportionate effect on the game, and I've thus far seen no evidence to suggest that he is responsible for 'gating' anything. He certainly isn't an auto-take in any Imperial list (I've flown him twice, and one of those was a joke list), and if you arn't good at knowing when and how to use that one die mod, and how to fly the Shuttle, then he is far from 'so good why wouldn't you take him?'

Personally, I value FFG's opinion on the matter (given that despite many opportunities, a great deal of time since it's release, and the opening of the 'FAQ errata' trapdoor, they have not changed Palpatine at all) over that of podcast hosts, regardless of how well-informed and genial they are (for reference - I like a lot of X-Wing podcasts and have nothing bad to say about any of them or their hosts).

So if Palp Shuttle is the big unbalanced one, and we could give +1 point cost to fix it, which should we increase, Emperor Palpatine or the Omicron Group Pilot? Trying to figure out if the problem is with Palp or the Shuttle.

The main issue with Palpatine is people have a bad habit of thinking in a vacuum.

"This ship counters this ship" - Palp's mod stops that

"This ship struggles against this ship" - Palp's mod stops that

Result: "PALP IS SO OP OMG!" despite the fact that every time someone complains about a palp incident, they are actually describing a 2v1 situation.

Even Soontir's defense will fall if you focus/trap him properly. WITH ALL YOUR SHIPS.

The moment you start thinking of the collective list and not 2-3 ships acting independently that happen to be on the same side, you perform way better.