No one should take anything I say into serious consideration but thanks for listening.

I think if you nerf Palp (either by restricting his range, or deleting him back to Epic entirely) then a slight bump back for Scum might be needed. Range 1-3 limit for Manaroo might do it (or Attanni as well)

This is exactly my thought as well. Super easy to FAQ and seems quite fair to me (meaning, doesn't swing the nerf bat too hard at both factions' competitive options).

Of course, without some serious playtesting, its hard to say for sure if its the right move, but it certainly seems like a good place to start!

Honestly i think if they would have nerfed palp by now they would have. But with this said, they should have a crew for maybe rebels with something similar as well.

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

"That's why FFG came up with the Upsilon - gotta move units"

- The cynical, business-minded side of me

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

"That's why FFG came up with the Upsilon - gotta move units"

- The cynical, business-minded side of me

If you take palpatine on the upsilon you are now approaching half your list for this ship. Not saying it's a bad idea to take palpatine on the upsilon but the list building gets really restricting really quick.

The points alone are a made in nerf it sounds like.

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

"That's why FFG came up with the Upsilon - gotta move units"

- The cynical, business-minded side of me

If you take palpatine on the upsilon you are now approaching half your list for this ship. Not saying it's a bad idea to take palpatine on the upsilon but the list building gets really restricting really quick.

But as you said, in this hypothetical Palp has been nerfed and not worth taking...?

lol

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

"That's why FFG came up with the Upsilon - gotta move units"

- The cynical, business-minded side of me

If you take palpatine on the upsilon you are now approaching half your list for this ship. Not saying it's a bad idea to take palpatine on the upsilon but the list building gets really restricting really quick.

But as you said, in this hypothetical Palp has been nerfed and not worth taking...?

lol

I have not said anything about the nerfed palpatine being worth taking or not. Merely that there are other considerations besides the card itself when talking about nerfing Palpatine.

Might be time for assassin builds to enter the game.

Good for killing One ship, but after that nothing else.

For those who missed it, the Scum & Villainy podcast put out an episode a few days ago (1/13) that had good commentary on heavy-hitters of the current meta - and if those builds should be addressed by the Devs. Regardless of your position, definitely worth giving a listen to these guys, specifically starting around the 11:00 minutes mark:

http://scumvillainy.podbean.com/e/episode-45-x-wing-20-part-2/

Really got me thinking. And since there are no Regionals streaming this weekend, here's my spiel:

When S&V started talking about FFG's reluctance (for better or worse) to nerf Palpatine, I asked myself: What would ejecting Palp out of the air-lock do to the meta? Regardless of how Palp gets nerfed, lessening him in any way will also change what works for the Empire and how often it's seen at premier events.

How Palpatine is treated in a nerf is a whole other thread, but let's go to the extreme: Palpatine becomes Epic only. Anyone else think that move would all-but shut down competitive Imperial lists? I say this because it's called out on the podcast that about 13 of the top 32 lists at Worlds 2016 were Imperial - only one of those 13 lists were without Palpatine.

Take Palp out and, statistically*, we see three to five Imperial lists in a World's top 32. Chew on that strange, parallel universe.

You'll need your tin-foil hat for this next part - which I'm sure will draw some flak - what if FFG refuses/hesitates to nerf Palpatine because they are worried that Scum will become nigh unbeatable (unbearable) OR because sales of Imperial will take a hit (especially with the advent of the Jabba crew in the new Scum Epic). The value of all future Imperial ships would immediately take a hit with Palp gone.

I won't bore yinz with my ranting - but I am interested in hearing from the community and those who've thought about this topic.

Oh! And someone on the podcast went off about Dengaroo. - totally agree with him. Feel free to talk about that, too.

* no statics were used in this rough guess

Palpatine has lost dramatically in value, even more since worlds as mindlink list with even more offensive power have taken over. I would rather say that imperials in general are in a bad spot, scum has basically taken their spot as prime ace platform, brings as well all those scummy tricks and adds versatility in list building on top. Hotcop RAC and other variants, seem to be the new imperial hot, defenders start to get countered way to often. At least in my local meta they are in the process of dying out already. Mindlink is everywhere, and Manaroo is the new Palpatine. Locally that is happening even without a large amount of Sabine and Bombs, globally the K-Wings seem to do a lot work on those Defenders and Palp Aces lists and suppress to some degree as well Old Man Rau.

Might be time for assassin builds to enter the game.

Good for killing One ship, but after that nothing else.

Proton Torpedos are actually even more effective.

https://youtu.be/RFCZwrscXbs?t=2m42s

Now do you want back to the alpha strike meta? ;-)

If you want to do something to Palpatine, Manaroo needs to be nerfed as well.

The last regional in Gdansk had 5 or 6 Parattani, Dengaroo, at least 2 lists with Manaroo + 2 Protectorates in the top 16, the final being Parattani vs Dengaroo (and very close to being a mirror).

I demand a nerf for every game element that is in the current meta!

I demand a fix for every game element that is not in the current meta!

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players favoring the third defender. A palp/RAC Inq won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

Totally agree.

Are you referring to the Wixom Regional that Phil Horny won? Interestingly enough, that list did not have Palp in it. Giving us the second list that is competitively viable for Imperial: RAC and an Ace.

Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD2AjlEv0yA

For me, Palp seems fine. He is not overpowered at all just because you need to pay at least 29 points to get him and he will be on a ship that is going to spend most of the game doing nothing just because if it tries to do something, it is going to explode because everything will be focused on it.

Also there are just so many tools out there to combat him. Boba Fett crew, stress on the aces, BMST, Feedback Array, Corran (cause of the two shots), Gunner/IG-B/Bossk/triple shot combo everyone is goings nuts about, Crack Shot, etc.

To call an upgrade "overpowered", that upgrade must be able to perform exceptionally under all circumstances with very little investment. For example, you could say Zuckuss is overpowered, but when you look at the investment he needs in order to work (Manaroo with upgrades) you see that in reality you don't spend 1 point to get him, but 30+.

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

29pts including also a 3 dice attack, 5 shields and 5 hull. For 1 more point electronic baffle you can turn faster, just saying.

All the Manaroo hate, Palp was first with unlimited range and NO disadvantage apart from the cost and the crew slots. If Manaroo passes anything, she has to pass everything, Mindlink costs 1pt per participating ship and the highly contested EPT slot and potentially stress, restricting maneuvring. Scyks and Kihraxzes competetively are nowadays almost dependent on Mindlink.

Doing a range restriction on Palp and Manaroo, but not Mindlink, in a vassal or shop tournament could be an interesting experiment.

For me, Palp seems fine. He is not overpowered at all just because you need to pay at least 29 points to get him and he will be on a ship that is going to spend most of the game doing nothing just because if it tries to do something, it is going to explode because everything will be focused on it.

Also there are just so many tools out there to combat him. Boba Fett crew, stress on the aces, BMST, Feedback Array, Corran (cause of the two shots), Gunner/IG-B/Bossk/triple shot combo everyone is goings nuts about, Crack Shot, etc.

To call an upgrade "overpowered", that upgrade must be able to perform exceptionally under all circumstances with very little investment. For example, you could say Zuckuss is overpowered, but when you look at the investment he needs in order to work (Manaroo with upgrades) you see that in reality you don't spend 1 point to get him, but 30+.

Actually, you just need to pay 8 points and two crew slots and put him into a very good rac which works without Palpatine just fine too. ;-)

I don't see a problem in Palp. You pay for him enough points to be ok.

Manaroo is general looks ok, but problem starts to arise when more that one element is put into list.

Right now, Meta is dominated by Parattani, Palp Defenders, Trip Defenders, Dengaroo, Bossk/Dengar. Rebels now have the hardest time in my opinion. Very limiting list, yes saw i think Regionals in Spain, Miranda, Jess, Y-Wing, Z win, but thats rare right now. When looking at Top16 of major tournaments, rebels suffer.

Imperials have 2 lists at least consistent (Defenders, 2x or 3x), even more, so i think they in ok'ish position right now. As for competitive list diversity. Don't need to nerf palp, else will get much much worse.

Scum have Parattani, Dengaroo, Bossk/Dengar some others in top too.

Rebels right now, most promising are what? Kanan/Zeb/Biggs and Corran/Miranda? Rey, Han and another don't see much Top16 in the way.

Also, we can take all this as, some good players just not playing Rebels and going for easier options right now, why want you hard work if you can get it easier?

If you nerf palpatine at all it then becomes a question of if taking the lambda is worth it. Palpatine in reality costs 29 points and is on a ship with a horrible dial that will get to shoot maybe three times before dying or being out of the fight for the rest of the game. When you take palpatine you are committing 1/3 of your list to contributing very little if any damage during the course of any game.

29pts including also a 3 dice attack, 5 shields and 5 hull. For 1 more point electronic baffle you can turn faster, just saying.

Oh yes, there are some positives to the Lamdba however they are few. I have flown the baffle version extensively and it does aid the lamdba if your opponent decides not to shoot it down first. The lambda even with baffles is not good enough to qualify as a full third ship in a 3-ship list. Anyone knows that if the aces die there is no chance for the shuttle to finish off whatever is left. Any other ship has an infinitely better chance of winning vs any other ship 1v1 than the Lambda.

However, this is not complaint on my part about the Lamdba. It has its uses and can be instrumental in your success if flown correctly like any other ship. It simply has costs to pay when taking it (and therefore Palpatine). If Palpatine were to be nerfed in some way it would still need to be powerful enough to justify paying all of the costs involved.

Oh yes, there are some positives to the Lamdba however they are few. I have flown the baffle version extensively and it does aid the lamdba if your opponent decides not to shoot it down first. The lambda even with baffles is not good enough to qualify as a full third ship in a 3-ship list. Anyone knows that if the aces die there is no chance for the shuttle to finish off whatever is left. Any other ship has an infinitely better chance of winning vs any other ship 1v1 than the Lambda.

Lambda vs Hwk I would bet on the Lambda

Oh yes, there are some positives to the Lamdba however they are few. I have flown the baffle version extensively and it does aid the lamdba if your opponent decides not to shoot it down first. The lambda even with baffles is not good enough to qualify as a full third ship in a 3-ship list. Anyone knows that if the aces die there is no chance for the shuttle to finish off whatever is left. Any other ship has an infinitely better chance of winning vs any other ship 1v1 than the Lambda.

Lambda vs Hwk I would bet on the Lambda

Naked HWK vs naked Lambda?

No one should take anything I say into serious consideration but thanks for listening.

I think your analysis is very good, and I still haven't had a chance to listen. I should add that even though I think the meta has moved past World's lists like Dengaroo are not fun to play against, and I'd say the same thing about Palp to some extent. At the same time, Dengar Bossk is also a very frustrating list that does similar things as Dengaroo with a better alpha strike.

Also, we can take all this as, some good players just not playing Rebels and going for easier options right now, why want you hard work if you can get it easier?

Why does this just apply to rebels? Why aren't the other players working hard as well? No matter what you bring I think you have to be a good player, and while this discussion is getting far afield, I think that if you look at results, you'll find the rebels have quite a bit more than that. They've had lists with Dash do well, rebel swarms, Biggs/Braylan...Rey did just make a top cut in Roseville (Top 8 I think?) of 115 people etc...there is a lot of variety in their lists and I think they're also the only faction that has put a swarm (multiple times) in the top cut.

The problem with saying Palpatine is balanced because of the number of ships that become unplayable without it is that you are in fact admitting it's OP. Upgrades that are auto include on specific ships are undesirable in most cases but acceptable. This is not that, you're talking a 3rd of your list to bring him along.

The problem with this is that if left as is all future Imperial ships and upgrades will need to be factored for Palpatine. Imperial list building will be 1/3rd less then Rebels or Scum. This is bad. We're seeing some list without Palp, and Hux don't seem that bad, so a nerf is probably not needed. But if he, or Manaroo for that matter, become auto includes they should probably be nerfed just for the sake of variety.

It's just bad design to have one ship or one upgrade that's absolutely required to be competitive.

Palp isnt a problem at all. Hes annoying but hes never a gamebreaker, you can approach his lists a multitude of ways.

Dengaroo is a problem to me. You have to face that list very specifically or you lose since it flatout ignores half the game. Im not a fan of lists that are so good you have to outplay your opponent LEAGUES above what they normally play at to beat it, and Palp is not making a lists that high.

Side note: i never use palp. I rather distractions instead of banking on a single die mod to save my ships.