For those who missed it, the Scum & Villainy podcast put out an episode a few days ago (1/13) that had good commentary on heavy-hitters of the current meta - and if those builds should be addressed by the Devs. Regardless of your position, definitely worth giving a listen to these guys, specifically starting around the 11:00 minutes mark:

http://scumvillainy.podbean.com/e/episode-45-x-wing-20-part-2/

Really got me thinking. And since there are no Regionals streaming this weekend, here's my spiel:

When S&V started talking about FFG's reluctance (for better or worse) to nerf Palpatine, I asked myself: What would ejecting Palp out of the air-lock do to the meta? Regardless of how Palp gets nerfed, lessening him in any way will also change what works for the Empire and how often it's seen at premier events.

How Palpatine is treated in a nerf is a whole other thread, but let's go to the extreme: Palpatine becomes Epic only. Anyone else think that move would all-but shut down competitive Imperial lists? I say this because it's called out on the podcast that about 13 of the top 32 lists at Worlds 2016 were Imperial - only one of those 13 lists were without Palpatine.

Take Palp out and, statistically*, we see three to five Imperial lists in a World's top 32. Chew on that strange, parallel universe.

You'll need your tin-foil hat for this next part - which I'm sure will draw some flak - what if FFG refuses/hesitates to nerf Palpatine because they are worried that Scum will become nigh unbeatable (unbearable) OR because sales of Imperial will take a hit (especially with the advent of the Jabba crew in the new Scum Epic). The value of all future Imperial ships would immediately take a hit with Palp gone.

I won't bore yinz with my ranting - but I am interested in hearing from the community and those who've thought about this topic.

Oh! And someone on the podcast went off about Dengaroo. - totally agree with him. Feel free to talk about that, too.

* no statistics were used in this rough guess

Triple defenders or 2 defenders + an ace like OL would be the only viable lists competitively.

Scum has a few decent options other than Dengaroo (which isn't a set in stone list by itself with some options on how to build it). Scum can fly Old Fennaroo, Brobots, or Fenn Assajj Mannaroo and do fairly well.

Rebels are what...Corran Miranda and Rey/Han + ____ (Lothal/Norra/Jake/Poe/Corran/Miranda)?

That's a fairly diverse meta outside of Imperials.

I don't have a problem with Palpatine shaping the Imperial lists. Would be great if there was a Yoda/Obi Wan to help out the Rebels!

I haven't listened to the podcast, though I will, so I'm only going by comments above for now. I think using World's as a reference is already a bit out of date. The meta has shifted.

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players favoring the third defender. A palp/RAC Inq won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

I think if Palp gets put away defenders pretty much become the only other central competitive build for Imperials, and it's of note that people are complaining about the X7 title. My take on Imperials right now is that things that are countering defenders actually make it worse on so many other imperial ships since defenders have health, agility, and often a token stack. So, I agree with Hoffburger that the other factions have some good options right now comparably, so nerfing Palp might very much expose other problems with the current card pool of the imperial faction. That's a not a bad thing, maybe, as it exposes some issues in the current design that those cards may be covering up.

I haven't listened to the podcast, though I will, so I'm only going by comments above for now. I think using World's as a reference is already a bit out of date. The meta has shifted.

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players fsvoring the third defender. A palp/RAC a won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

I think if Palp gets put away defenders pretty much become the only other central competitive build for Imperials, and it's of note that people are complaining about the X7 title. My take on Imperials right now is that things that are countering defenders actually make it worse on so many other imperial ships since defenders have health, agility, and often a token stack. So, I agree with Hoffburger that the other factions have some good options right now comparably, so nerfing Palp might very much expose other problems with the current card pool of the imperial faction.

Wholeheartedly agree. Interceptors for instance are already prone to exploding in one shot WITH Palpatine. Without him they are totally gone from the competitive scene.

I have a simple idea for this thread and it is called Moff Jerjerrod or Boba Fett crew

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players favoring the third defender. A palp/RAC Inq won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

Totally agree.

Are you referring to the Wixom Regional that Phil Horny won? Interestingly enough, that list did not have Palp in it. Giving us the second list that is competitively viable for Imperial: RAC and an Ace.

Here:

I have a simple idea for this thread and it is called Boba Fett crew

That is a simple idea, but it isn't quite for this thread

How so? That is a way to get around Palp. is it not?

I also have not yet had a chance to listen, but another issue is that the meta can potentially adapt, but it takes time. As long as something out there can give a list a bad matchup, there should be a flow towards an equilibrium. If there is nothing that can counter one list consistently, that one list is a problem.

I don't think we are seeing single lists dominate, but we are seeing pilots, upgrades, or combinations that come up a lot. Zuckuss crew, Manaroo, Attani Mindlink. Any one is fine, any two seems broken, and all three seem anti-synergistic.

A single x7 is fine, two is getting overpowered, the third is crazy and pairing them with Juke seems broken.

His eminence is similar. With a swarm of academies he would be fine, but with Token stacking Aces there was a multiplicative effect. Instead of reining that in, a counter was introduced and we are getting into a spiral of new things that counter old hotness and hose everything else even worse.

Edit: I should say, Manaroo with Mindlink or Manaroo with Zuckuss are potentially too good. Mindlink and Zuckuss I don't think I have seen yet, due to the downside of Mindlink. I think this argument might tie back in to complexity creep, almost more than power creep.

How so? That is a way to get around Palp. is it not?

The thread is pretty open-ended, so take it in whatever direction you want lol

With that logic, Fett is also a counter to every other upgrade in the game and no further consideration needed - problem solved! Everyone run Bossk with Crack Shot and Bob Fett crew! Jk

meh

just range 1-2 like all the goddamn rebel synergy which is both weaker AND range limited for some reason

Palpatine is a minimum of 28 points, and he only works once per round. I just have a hard time thinking he's _that_ bad.

Honestly, if the Developers come up with something that close to hard counters Manaroo and x7 defenders, it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of balance.

If they can come up with something that does that but itself is super weak to TIE punishers, T-65s, and StarVipers, we could proclaim them the Chosen Ones because Balance would be restored to the force.

Edit: I don't want to claim I know better than Frank, Alex, and Max. I got to talk to Frank and Max a little at worlds (honestly, that might be all the argument I need to say that the trip is worth it), and they have these discussions too. I just hope they have the creativity to come up with things that have new weaknesses and not just new strengths.

The "problem" is that Palp was protecting 3-4 hit point aces that could just pop on one mistake, now he's protecting 6 hit point ships that still get a token even if they make a mistake.

Palpatine is a minimum of 28 points, and he only works once per round. I just have a hard time thinking he's _that_ bad.

29 points. But yeah, Palp takes up close to a third of your list.

Stuff like interceptors will never come back to the game because there are too many things that kill them without rolling dice at all. Slicer Tools, Feedback, R5-P8, Kylo, Vader, there are simply too many things that completely wreck anything that relies on agility and low health to survive. You basically have to have 4+ hull these days unless the point cost is super cheap.

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players favoring the third defender. A palp/RAC Inq won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

Totally agree.

Are you referring to the Wixom Regional that Phil Horny won? Interestingly enough, that list did not have Palp in it. Giving us the second list that is competitively viable for Imperial: RAC and an Ace.

Here:

No, the list I was referring to was today in Roseville,MN the winning list was Palp on board RAC with the Inquisitor. The other two imperial lists in the top cut were Commonwealth Defenders and 2 Defenders and an SF (!!). I think the game you shared is the sole exception to my point by a world-class player.

Palpatine aces and defender lists have still yet to win a worlds. Dengaroo took one, and rebel Regen/fat turret/stress control have. Also a tie advanced plus ties. I'm starting to think the empire gets hated on so much just because there's a larger proportion of players within that faction. (note that I have no statistics backing this claim, it is just becoming a hit feeling). Sure defenders are astoundingly prevalent, but is that because they are broken or is it because they are accessible? Literally every thread that has a player starting into the game as an Imperial player has someone suggesting they pick up a defender and veterans. It is a super forgiving ship for sure, however we have seen those before any rebel ship that can carry an astromech or is named Miranda doni. As far as Palpatine goes he simply ensures consistency in those terrible traitorous green dice. He isn't broken at all at 8 points. What if he saves a 36 point Ryad from damage 3 times? What if R2-d2 regenerates a shield for a 48 point corran horn 3 times? Same over all effect. "R2-d2 makes him predictable", 29 points of my list is a lambda.. Just my .02.

I think if you nerf Palp (either by restricting his range, or deleting him back to Epic entirely) then a slight bump back for Scum might be needed. Range 1-3 limit for Manaroo might do it (or Attanni as well)

How so? That is a way to get around Palp. is it not?

The thread is pretty open-ended, so take it in whatever direction you want lol

With that logic, Fett is also a counter to every other upgrade in the game and no further consideration needed - problem solved! Everyone run Bossk with Crack Shot and Bob Fett crew! Jk

I do consider Fett as the nerf that is being talked about to Palp. but as you mentioned to most stuff in the game

Another one of those threads where people with no idea what they are talking about will propose to nerf a card that works perfectly fine.

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players favoring the third defender. A palp/RAC Inq won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

Totally agree.

Are you referring to the Wixom Regional that Phil Horny won? Interestingly enough, that list did not have Palp in it. Giving us the second list that is competitively viable for Imperial: RAC and an Ace.

Here:

No, the list I was referring to was today in Roseville,MN the winning list was Palp on board RAC with the Inquisitor. The other two imperial lists in the top cut were Commonwealth Defenders and 2 Defenders and an SF (!!). I think the game you shared is the sole exception to my point by a world-class player.

I played against that 2 Defenders + SF list, and my 3 bombing K wings list tore it apart. I ended up only losing the K Wing with Chopper. Unfortunately, after that I only saw high hull 2 ship lists with torps/missles and my bombs couldn't punch through quick enough, especially after the torps/missles tore through 1 of my ships. It looks like the meta is switching to either Defenders, Mindlink, or alpha strike lists. This makes me sad as I was really enjoying K Wings.

meh

just range 1-2 like all the goddamn rebel synergy which is both weaker AND range limited for some reason

Crosses off "Nerf Palatine" and FGD "Meh" squares on my X-Wing Forum BINGO card

I've seen a lot more Bossk Dengar than Dengaroo lately.. Palp is still a feature of some Imperial lists, but defenders seem much more prominent, with a lot of players favoring the third defender. A palp/RAC Inq won in Minnesota. Take Palp out of the list and is it even viable?

Totally agree.

Are you referring to the Wixom Regional that Phil Horny won? Interestingly enough, that list did not have Palp in it. Giving us the second list that is competitively viable for Imperial: RAC and an Ace.

Here:

No, the list I was referring to was today in Roseville,MN the winning list was Palp on board RAC with the Inquisitor. The other two imperial lists in the top cut were Commonwealth Defenders and 2 Defenders and an SF (!!). I think the game you shared is the sole exception to my point by a world-class player.

I played against that 2 Defenders + SF list, and my 3 bombing K wings list tore it apart. I ended up only losing the K Wing with Chopper. Unfortunately, after that I only saw high hull 2 ship lists with torps/missles and my bombs couldn't punch through quick enough, especially after the torps/missles tore through 1 of my ships. It looks like the meta is switching to either Defenders, Mindlink, or alpha strike lists. This makes me sad as I was really enjoying K Wings.

Super nice guy playing that list and he and I faced off and I must have been the other person to hand him a loss -- came down to Quiz sneaking a crit through that was a major explosion into another crit on Ryad. I was running Quickdraw, Inquisitor, and Omega Leader (purposefully no defenders) and ended at 4-2. A mistake with quiz in R5 cost me a chance at a play in game and it would have been a situation where Palp would have made the difference.

As for the remainder of your tourney, yes, I saw a Dengar Bossk list and was lucky to walk away with a win, but I think that those builds are a bit tougher than Dengaroo as Bossky simply erases a ship that has 4-5 hull easily. The alpha strike meta has me looking at the Black One title....

Ok thinking of the nerf thing on this i am game for this idea. If and that's a big "if" Palp. should even be nerfed at all make it limited to range 3 or less.