if you have a conflict talent your are in a conflicting situation EVERY SINGLE SESSION (even if you spent that session floating in a tank of bacta) *because of* the conflict talent.

How? I don't mean "the rules say...", I mean: how are you in conflict when you're unconscious?

if you have a conflict talent your are in a conflicting situation EVERY SINGLE SESSION (even if you spent that session floating in a tank of bacta) *because of* the conflict talent.

How? I don't mean "the rules say...", I mean: how are you in conflict when you're unconscious?

The reason being is the very fact that you know how to do the things you can and have perfected the ability to do those things keeps you in constant conflict.

Technically, you don't have to earn conflict during a ssession to roll morality at the end. You simply need to be put into a situation where earning Conflic is possible. If you choose to not give into the temptation that would earn you Conflict, but instead choose the "right choice", then no Conflict earned and you're certain to go up in Morality at the end of the session.

An interesting "RAW legal" detail/fine-point/corner-case i'd like to mention, is that assuming that a character has a "1 automatic conflict per session talent" the a badly injurred/floating unconscious in a tank of bacta, character would still get a morality check at the end of a session (assuming that the player in question ran a NPC for the session that his regular character was left in the med bay to heal and maybe wake up with one or more new prosthetic appendages)

OK, I seem to have inserted a house rule then. It has never made any sense to a single person at our table to be able to roll if you have no conflict, so that was my bad. The whole "experience is the best teacher" and all that. AFB at the moment, so I cannot confirm, but I do seem to remember this was a highly debated topic in the past.

The Devs said you have to be in a conflicting situation. IE if you are asleep all game no conflict. But if you go out and have the potential to earn conflict. Then you roll. even if you did not earn any.

Yeah, I remember that now. Which is why, I think, our group (my players mostly) thought it was counter-intuitive to be able to roll against conflict while you have nothing to roll against (been a while, don't rightly remember anymore). Makes the creep to paragon look more like a force leap.

So, for the record, I'll give what we do and I will not try and mention RAW when concerning conflict anymore. If a PC has no conflict, they do not roll. Also, we don't always roll at end of session. All agreed that it was more appropriate that the player roll when there is a lull in the story/game where the PC could possibly reflect/meditate/whatever and have it sink in. This gives the potential for conflict to accumulate if the story happens to be in a fast passed section where there are elements of the story keeping them moving and unable to relax. *shrug* Works well for us so far, but YMMV.

The reason being is the very fact that you know how to do the things you can and have perfected the ability to do those things keeps you in constant conflict.

That's not an explanation for how you earn conflict when you're unconscious and unable to act or think.

The reason being is the very fact that you know how to do the things you can and have perfected the ability to do those things keeps you in constant conflict.

That's not an explanation for how you earn conflict when you're unconscious and unable to act or think.

Dreams and subconscious?

Dreams and subconscious?

Dreams aren't moral acts.

1. No flipping DP and taking strain to use the opposing side of the Force as a common event. These are the Masters of the Force, not a fumbling beginner. Yoda doesn't need to rely on the Dark Side, nor Palpatine the Light. Yoda using dark side pips is anathema to the character, and vice versa Palpatine.

This is ridiculous. Yoda would not have any problems using the Dark Side if he really nedeed to.

Edit mine, but essentially what you're saying, here. Using Dark Side pips is using the Dark Side of the Force, period. It happens a lot for young, untrained Force Users trying to get by with what little power they have, but it should NOT be necessary for someone of Yoda's level. That's not something I could ever compromise on. If you want Yoda to be a Grey Jedi using the Dark Side willy nilly in your campaign, that's obviously your business, But that certainly doesn't match the character we saw in the movies.

And as DaverWatta points out, uncommitting and recommitting Force Die isn't really something that can be done easily mid-battle, considering it takes up Actions. More likely is the fact that Yoda and Palps are just that powerful. It would be boring, otherwise.

OK, in this I see a flaw (as I see it anyway) in your logic. Flipping a Destiny Point to use a dark pip is not necessarily "calling upon the darkside". It represents using the force when you are emotional (fear, anxiety, etc.) as well deliberate "feel my power" moments.. This generates conflict . If Yoda never generates conflict he will ALWAYS be grey as he can never roll against his conflict to raise to paragon. If you have watched the last season of Clone Wars, Yoda does feel emotion, and has acted on it.

As per many, many discussions on this topic before, as well as words from the Devs IIRC, this is how the system was designed. You are supposed to occasionally flip DP's and generate conflict, it's the only way to grow.

It's true that the system is designed for PCs to flip DPs and take Conflict. They're barely-guided beginners in the Force, not Jedi Masters (or even Padawans). As you might imagine, Yoda is not a PC and doesn't follow the same expectations.

In either case, your differentiation doesn't really exist because what the Dark Side pips represent is the Dark Side of the Force. From F&D p. 260:

Every Light Side result (white dot) generates one Force Point the character may spend to fuel the power's abilities. Every Dark Side Point (black dot) generates no points and is discarded.

However, the Dark side of the Force is always offering easy power, tempting a Force user to give in and accept its aid. A Force Sensitive character may use one or more Dark Side Points to generate Force Points - in addition to the point generated by Light Side Points. The consequences of this choice can be dire, and can gravely affect the individual who gives into the temptation.

Yoda is not a PC, he is not expected to have to use the Dark Side to get what he needs.

Besides, IMHO, always being able to roll what you need or better is boring. There is no challenge nor threat of failure. Sounds like retirement time to me.

Yoda DID retire. Palpatine's severance package was pretty brutal, though.

I like this list better:

FR 1: Initiate

FR 2: Padawan

FR 3: Experienced Padawan/young Jedi

FR 4: Experienced Jedi

FR 5: Jedi Master

FR 6: Council Master

FR 7: Senior Council Master (Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi)

FR 8: Vader

FR 9(+?): Yoda, Palpatine

However, Vader should be FR9 given he is a "vergence in the Force" with an "off the charts" Force ability. Yoda and Palpatine would have a greater knowledge (talents and force skills) than Vader, but he would have the higher FR.

In saying that, the EotE/AoR Jedi/Sith nemeses only have FR3, which highlights the game designers view on what is an appropriate FR for an experienced Force user. If you watch the original movies, the Force powers weren't over the top, so FR3 being an example of a capable user makes sense. Once the expanded universe and OP Marvel stuff started coming out, the Force powers were buffed so they would appear comparable, which doesn't quite work as well.

This is why players may feel that you need to throw a Senate chair or fall off a cliff and land on your feet in order to be at Jedi level. It's all relative to the landscape. Ep I - III is the OP, glorified hyper Force user era. Ep IV-VI is the era of the more thematic, narrative, tasteful, less-is-more Force user.

Have you even played the game? Cause you foece rating chart is is crazy. Palps works well at 7. 2 more is way over the top.

Yes, been playing for years.

Did you read the whole post? FR is relative to the style of game you want to run. The FR1-9 would be better suited for an Ep I-III era game. FR1-6 would be better suited for an Ep IV-VI era game.

I did. You can do everything Yoda did with force rating 7. So no 1-9 is not suited to a I-III game. 1-7 is suited to all games.

What do you think is Yoda's basic unenhanced Agility? He moves around like an old geezer, then after he's called upon the Force he fights like he has Agility 6 (remember, he's an Ataru fighter). This indicates to me that he has at least 2 or 3 Force dice, and maybe as many as 4, bound up in enhancing Agility during combat. And probably one die in Sense (upgrade defense) and one die in Suppress. So unless he's only rolling 3 dice, his FR is higher than 7.

What part of this reasoning seems wrong to you?

(I can understand wanting to mentally retcon the somewhat ridiculous way Yoda fights in the prequels, btw. But just recognize that that's what you're doing.)

Same goes for Palpatine, by the way. Dude is old and distinguished. His natural Agility and Brawn are not the values we see on display in his duel with Windu.

Dreams and subconscious?

Dreams aren't moral acts.

conflict does not equal an evil act, it is your conscience dealing with you having committed an evil act (either actively or passively). This is why you can't have a negative morality score, because at zero morality (pure evil) you're so far gone that your conscience doesn't bother you anymore at all. With a *positive* morality score the evil that you do (or allow to happen when you could have stopped it) gnaws at your soul/force-spirit-essence even if it's only a tinge to your subconscious that you aren't consciously aware of. And your subconscious/force-spirit-essence has to deal with that even if you aren't awake.

edit: The preceding is my interpretation/justification for the RAW: if you have a better explanation for why RAW says you'd get conflict while not being awake I'd be interesting in hearing it.

edit: The preceding is my interpretation/justification for the RAW: if you have a better explanation for why RAW says you'd get conflict while not being awake I'd be interesting in hearing it.

The assumption that the GM wouldn't consider a knocked-out character to be meaningfully participating in a session? The game isn't a rigid engine, it expects a certain amount of flexibility from the GM and the players to make the narrative flow pleasingly.

If the player was absent for the session the character spends unconscious, would you give conflict to the character?

20 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

The assumption that the GM wouldn't consider a knocked-out character to be meaningfully participating in a session? The game isn't a rigid engine, it expects a certain amount of flexibility from the GM and the players to make the narrative flow pleasingly.

If the player was absent for the session the character spends unconscious, would you give conflict to the character?

A) if the character appeared in the session, "meaningful" or not, probably

B) that hypothetical is completely irrelevant if the player is actually there for the session, which is the scenario we were discussing, I am pretty adverse to taking away a benefit from a player that RAW provides them with, they paid XP for this talent, they should get the RAW benefit it provides, especially for any session that they attend.

On 1/23/2017 at 11:44 AM, DaverWattra said:

What do you think is Yoda's basic unenhanced Agility? He moves around like an old geezer, then after he's called upon the Force he fights like he has Agility 6 (remember, he's an Ataru fighter). This indicates to me that he has at least 2 or 3 Force dice, and maybe as many as 4, bound up in enhancing Agility during combat. And probably one die in Sense (upgrade defense) and one die in Suppress. So unless he's only rolling 3 dice, his FR is higher than 7.

What part of this reasoning seems wrong to you?

(I can understand wanting to mentally retcon the somewhat ridiculous way Yoda fights in the prequels, btw. But just recognize that that's what you're doing.)

Well knowing several people who play old and slow a lot of the time but are not actually slow I don't know that Yoda has a super low normal agility. And I don't know that Yoda is running suppress. It is not a power we actively see. So assuming he is running it is nothing more than an assumption. Also who says part of what we see is not Sense attack upgrade? that would be more efficient.

4 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

A) if the character appeared in the session, "meaningful" or not, probably

B) that hypothetical is completely irrelevant if the player is actually there for the session, which is the scenario we were discussing, I am pretty adverse to taking away a benefit from a player that RAW provides them with, they paid XP for this talent, they should get the RAW benefit it provides, especially for any session that they attend.

I'm aware we were discussing a scenario with the player present. I asked a further question to explore the area around this situation. It's not irrelevant, it's illuminating.

On 1/25/2017 at 1:15 AM, Stan Fresh said:

I'm aware we were discussing a scenario with the player present. I asked a further question to explore the area around this situation. It's not irrelevant, it's illuminating.

I reread what I wrote and it sounds "snippy" when that wasn't my intention, so I apologize. And you are correct IN GENERAL about it being relevant. However in MY CASE it is irrelevant because when one of my players misses a session, his character is run by another player who is present. So even if that character didn't do a lot of talking/make progress towards their goals, they did participate in combat/etc. I honestly haven't run a session of ffg star wars where one of the player characters haven't contributed meaningfully even when the character's player wasn't there. So I had to "guess" at an answer which is why I qualified it with "probably". Nowe the definition of "meaningfully" is open to interpretation/debate but the point is we are getting in territory that is pretty much purely hypothetical for my style of GMing. Whereas I don't see a PC with a conflict talent being unconscious in a bacta tank and their player running a different character for that session as being "farfetched".

I believe in being fair to players as opposed to characters. Xp is earned for a character by a player sitting at the gaming table running a character at a rate of about 5xp per real world hour. When a player character does not get the raw benefit for a talent that the player spent real world time to acquire (time converted to the Xp that was spent), that seems unfair to the player. Characters, in the absence of their players don't have any rights, but when a player who has missed a session gets their character back the next session, his character should be in at least as good shape as before the session he missed. BTW I am using the pronoun "he" for player because all my current players actually are male (I am not trying to be exclusionary).

On 01/20/2017 at 0:26 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

A PC with Force Rating 2 can pretty easily replicate the bulk of Palpatine's Senate-tossing from RotS with the following: Move basic power, Strength Upgrade x2, Magnitude Upgrade x2, "hurl objects" Control Upgrade, needing a grand sum of 3 Force Points to activate those. They'd need to be FR 3 to pull it off reliably (especially if a dark sider), but it can be done with FR 2. You do need to buy a Range upgrade to get to that "hurl objects" Control Upgrade, but it's not really needed unless you want to smack someone that's currently at medium range (or long range if you've bought 2 of them).

Yoda's stopping and reflecting Dooku's Force lightning attempts really just needs 2 Force points if he's just stopping the attack for the basic power + Control Upgrade to use Protect as an out-of-turn incidental, 4 Force points if he wants to bounce it back, both of which are well within reach for Force Rating 3. Yoda's probably also got a Willpower of 4 (at least) and Discipline 5, so he's sure to get plenty of successes when rolling against a 2 difficulty, allowing him to stop extra damage, with the Strength Upgrades being gravy.

So in both those instances, Palps and Yoda could have the defensive and offensive Sense Control Upgrades going and still pull off the stuff we see them do on-screen with only rolling 4 Force dice each if going by the chart I suggested earlier, or even 3 Force dice if the GM pegs them as only being FR5. In the case of Yoda's stopping Dooku's Force lightning, he probably only had a single Force die committed to Sense's defense upgrade, leaving him 5 dice out of his proposed Force Rating 6.

From my play experiences, you can still pull off a fair amount of things with just Force Rating 3, and I do agree with Tramp in this particular instance that in practical experience, getting a Force Rating above 5 is pretty much overkill, and doesn't really serve any truly useful purpose beyond ego-stroking.

Hides FR 25 Chracter. It was a thought experiment! I promise!