I would expect a Jedi Master to have multiple Force Dice committed to various effects and still be able to do some awesome things with the remaining Force Dice.

This is the key point. A master, Jedi or Sith, should be able to commit dice to countering enemy powers with Suppress, and powering up their own abilities with Enhance or Sense (something Yoda seems to do whenever he's in a fight) and still reliably get off impressive Force powers. I would never expect Yoda to go into battle without one die committed to Suppress and probably 2+ dice in Enhance (Agility and/or Brawn) with very powerful and reliable Force power still at his disposal--probably five dice left at least.

From my play experiences, you can still pull off a fair amount of things with just Force Rating 3, and I do agree with Tramp in this particular instance that in practical experience, getting a Force Rating above 5 is pretty much overkill, and doesn't really serve any truly useful purpose beyond ego-stroking.

There's a huge difference in power between a character who can roll 5 Force dice maximum and a character who can still roll 5 dice after already committing multiple dice to ongoing powers.

I would expect a Jedi Master to have multiple Force Dice committed to various effects and still be able to do some awesome things with the remaining Force Dice.

This is the key point. A master, Jedi or Sith, should be able to commit dice to countering enemy powers with Suppress, and powering up their own abilities with Enhance or Sense (something Yoda seems to do whenever he's in a fight) and still reliably get off impressive Force powers. I would never expect Yoda to go into battle without one die committed to Suppress and probably 2+ dice in Enhance (Agility and/or Brawn) with very powerful and reliable Force power still at his disposal--probably five dice left at least.

From my play experiences, you can still pull off a fair amount of things with just Force Rating 3, and I do agree with Tramp in this particular instance that in practical experience, getting a Force Rating above 5 is pretty much overkill, and doesn't really serve any truly useful purpose beyond ego-stroking.

There's a huge difference in power between a character who can roll 5 Force dice maximum and a character who can still roll 5 dice after already committing multiple dice to ongoing powers.

Yoda definitely has 2 die in the Sense upgrades at all time, given how hard he is to actually hit. He also almost certainly uses Enhance for his agility; his body is old and weak but the Force is his ally.

Donovan, I don't disagree that it is possible to do those things at a lower FR. However as has been pointed out, there are two additional requirements that need to be met:

1. No flipping DP and taking strain to use the opposing side of the Force as a common event. These are the Masters of the Force, not a fumbling beginner. Yoda doesn't need to rely on the Dark Side, nor Palpatine the Light. Yoda using dark side pips is anathema to the character, and vice versa Palpatine.

2. They need to have multiple Force Die committed. Whether it's Yoda's Agility, Palpatine's Battle Meditation, or both of them using Sense, they need to be able to pull those impressive set pieces off while down a few Force Die.

Once you account for these two things, you realize you need to bump things up a bit.

As a side note, it's pretty easy for a player at higher experience levels (1500 XP+) to start getting 5+ FR. Setting the masters of the Force significantly above that point keeps them as wondrous wielders of power far above what any player can reasonably hope to achieve, which is what they should be.

1. No flipping DP and taking strain to use the opposing side of the Force as a common event. These are the Masters of the Force, not a fumbling beginner. Yoda doesn't need to rely on the Dark Side, nor Palpatine the Light. Yoda using dark side pips is anathema to the character, and vice versa Palpatine.

This is ridiculous. Yoda would not have any problems flipping DP to activate powers if he really nedeed to. That would mean he fails his duty as a jedi if he lets people get injured or die becasue he's unwilling to take conflict. What he would never do, and is anathema to his charcter, is using the Force for attack and not defence: he would never use dark side powers, but using DP to activate his powers, when really nedeed, it's ok. He is powerful enough that he probably doesn't need to do that very often or for very long though. One of the reasons he quits the duel with Palpatine (IMO) is that he realizes that to beat him he would have to flip DP like mad and refuses the choice becasue that would draw him too close to the dark side. Given his facial expression when stopping the senate pod thrown at him or the piece of machinery thrown by Dooku at Obi-Wan and Anakin it's quite possible he was taking strain to flip DP.

As for Palpatine he would have no problems whatsoever to flip DP to use the lightside to get "unlimited powahhhh". He is very pragmatict. He too doesn't need to do that very often, but since he doesn't risk falling back to the light he has no moral problems in avoiding it. I am sure he flipped quite a lot of DP in his duel with Mace. That's the real trick for Palpatine: he can draw on the lightside to boost his powers if nedeed without any repercussions.

Also, If you interpret the scene of him on Mustafar touching Vader as healing him until the medical capsule arrives, he must have used lightside pips to activate heal on someone else.

The thing to keep in mind when comparing what we see in the films with the rules in the RPG is that the movie characters do NOT have to be able to accomplish a certain dice result all the time on every single roll . This was a constant stumbling block for people that played the various WotC d20 games. Classic example was replicating Luke's "one in a million" shot in ANH, when really all he needed to do in the d20 system was roll a natural 20 at that particular moment.

What truly matters is that the movie characters have a reasonable chance to accomplish a given task, especially if you account for having what a friend of mine calls "movie hero dice" where the dice results are generally beneficial to the character and what they're trying to accomplish in a given scene.

So for Yoda, you can probably assume he's getting an average of 1 light side pip for each Force die rolled, and as such rarely (if ever) has to resort to using dark side pips to get the result he wants. Also easy to figure that before he does some of his really big Force tricks, he uncommits a Force die or two to boost up his chances of getting however many lights side pips he needs.

I suppose it's possible that Yoda just always gets an unusually good roll whenever he tries to use a power, and that he's constantly committing and un-committing dice in the middle of combat (not a very good strategy in the actual game, which makes it a bit strange that he would follow it).

But let's apply Occam's Razor to this question. The simplest possible explanation of what we see in the movies is most likely to be the true explanation. And the simplest explanation is that Yoda's FR is much higher than 5.

If this system had the equivalent of Saga Edition's Destiny Points, which could really cause amazing results, I'd be more tempted to agree with your view. But if your theory is just that Yoda makes improbably good rolls every time, I prefer Benjan's explanation.

Finally, deploying Occam's razor one more time: How plausible is it that a 900-year-old Jedi Master has completed fewer than five Force talent trees in his 800 years as a Jedi?

1. No flipping DP and taking strain to use the opposing side of the Force as a common event. These are the Masters of the Force, not a fumbling beginner. Yoda doesn't need to rely on the Dark Side, nor Palpatine the Light. Yoda using dark side pips is anathema to the character, and vice versa Palpatine.

This is ridiculous. Yoda would not have any problems using the Dark Side if he really nedeed to.

Edit mine, but essentially what you're saying, here. Using Dark Side pips is using the Dark Side of the Force, period. It happens a lot for young, untrained Force Users trying to get by with what little power they have, but it should NOT be necessary for someone of Yoda's level. That's not something I could ever compromise on. If you want Yoda to be a Grey Jedi using the Dark Side willy nilly in your campaign, that's obviously your business, But that certainly doesn't match the character we saw in the movies.

And as DaverWatta points out, uncommitting and recommitting Force Die isn't really something that can be done easily mid-battle, considering it takes up Actions. More likely is the fact that Yoda and Palps are just that powerful. It would be boring, otherwise.

Finally, deploying Occam's razor one more time: How plausible is it that a 900-year-old Jedi Master has completed fewer than five Force talent trees in his 800 years as a Jedi?

Except Yoda didn't spend all 800 of those years going on a steady stream of adventures. If anything, he spent at least a few hundred of those years hanging around the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, heading up the Jedi Council and helping to train future generations of Jedi.

Heck, he probably didn't have nearly the adventuring pace that your typical RPG group has, to say nothing of the ever-increasing costs of buying new specializations.

Since you invoked Occam's Razor, the easiest solution is that Yoda and Palpatine were never player characters, and thus never had to bother with specialization trees, as well as really not bothering with Sense as they'd have Adversary and whatever characteristics the GM felt was appropriate for them to have, rather than going off on a min-maxing power-gaming fantasy that they were rolling over a dozen Force dice each time they passed gas.

Since you invoked Occam's Razor, the easiest solution is that Yoda and Palpatine were never player characters, and thus never had to bother with specialization trees, as well as really not bothering with Sense as they'd have Adversary and whatever characteristics the GM felt was appropriate for them to have, rather than going off on a min-maxing power-gaming fantasy that they were rolling over a dozen Force dice each time they passed gas.

I totally agree. I have been pondering this problem and the best solution is that both Yoda and Palpatine are NPC, and the fight between them is something either narrated by the GM, or he has tempararily given the two NPC to a couple of players to have fun with an epic duel.

I would say Yoda has force rating 6 or 7. That gives enough to commit 1 to Sense defense 1 to Sense Offense 1 to Enhance agility. and 3 or 4 to do everything else. reliably.

Clearly Palpatine has the Senate Control Upgrade.

Clearly Palpatine has the Senate Control Upgrade.

That is the influence power...

It's in both the Move and the Influence tree. Luckily, you only have to buy it once.

Not going to lie, if Yoda or Palpatine ever show up in my game their just going to have a Force Rating of Enough. It's not like either of them should ever have problems activating their Force powers anyways.

Regarding the OP, more XP isn't a bad idea, but it's honestly might be a better Idea to say 'As a Jedi, you have Y xp Sense, Z xp in Enhance, and W xp in Move, here's that XP'. Give non-Force users xp equivalent to or slightly less then (because their free spending)- or a nice selection of standard gear (ei, mandalorian armor, cortosis vibroblades, personal energy shields, etc). Work with the players to establish what they think the baseline for the era should be, and give them the baseline.

This might work better then simply handing out more xp, since then you can make sure they have their basic Jedi tool kit without a player getting distracted by shinies in Talent trees.

1. No flipping DP and taking strain to use the opposing side of the Force as a common event. These are the Masters of the Force, not a fumbling beginner. Yoda doesn't need to rely on the Dark Side, nor Palpatine the Light. Yoda using dark side pips is anathema to the character, and vice versa Palpatine.

This is ridiculous. Yoda would not have any problems using the Dark Side if he really nedeed to.

Edit mine, but essentially what you're saying, here. Using Dark Side pips is using the Dark Side of the Force, period. It happens a lot for young, untrained Force Users trying to get by with what little power they have, but it should NOT be necessary for someone of Yoda's level. That's not something I could ever compromise on. If you want Yoda to be a Grey Jedi using the Dark Side willy nilly in your campaign, that's obviously your business, But that certainly doesn't match the character we saw in the movies.

And as DaverWatta points out, uncommitting and recommitting Force Die isn't really something that can be done easily mid-battle, considering it takes up Actions. More likely is the fact that Yoda and Palps are just that powerful. It would be boring, otherwise.

OK, in this I see a flaw (as I see it anyway) in your logic. Flipping a Destiny Point to use a dark pip is not necessarily "calling upon the darkside". It represents using the force when you are emotional (fear, anxiety, etc.) as well deliberate "feel my power" moments.. This generates conflict . If Yoda never generates conflict he will ALWAYS be grey as he can never roll against his conflict to raise to paragon. If you have watched the last season of Clone Wars, Yoda does feel emotion, and has acted on it.

As per many, many discussions on this topic before, as well as words from the Devs IIRC, this is how the system was designed. You are supposed to occasionally flip DP's and generate conflict, it's the only way to grow.

Besides, IMHO, always being able to roll what you need or better is boring. There is no challenge nor threat of failure. Sounds like retirement time to me.

Technically, you don't have to earn conflict during a ssession to roll morality at the end. You simply need to be put into a situation where earning Conflic is possible. If you choose to not give into the temptation that would earn you Conflict, but instead choose the "right choice", then no Conflict earned and you're certain to go up in Morality at the end of the session.

Honestly the simplest solution is just up the xp.

This. In the era being played, the Jedi are pretty much being trained from birth, so they have more experience to start with.

Wholly agreed. Jedi Force leaping about, lifting and hurling boulders at each other, Force Lightning, Protect, Bind...plrenty of flashy powers out there, you just need the XP to be able to have them upgraded and the FR to get them off reliably.

It helps if you conceptualize a basic "power level" that each amount of Force Die represent. In my group, it goes like this:

FR 1: Initiate (aka dorky kid in blinding helmet)

FR 2: Padawan

FR 3: Experienced Padawan/young Jedi

FR 4: Experienced Jedi

FR 5: Jedi Master

FR 6: Council Master

FR 7: Senior Council Master (Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi)

FR 8: Vader

FR 9(+?): Yoda, Palpatine

I've got to disagree with this ranking. It's way off the charts. At best it should be:

FR1: Padawan

FR2: newly knighted Jedi Knight

FR3: Jedi Master

FR4: Senior Master/Darth Vader

FR5: Yoda/Palpatine

There is really no reason to go much above that.

FR 1: Initiate

FR 2: Padawan, about ready to start the trials

FR 3: newly minted Jedi Knight

FR 4: Experienced Jedi

FR 5: Jedi Master

FR 6: Council Master/Darth Vader

FR 7: Yoda, Palpatine

Now there is a +/- 1 on most of these categories, for example a newly minted jedi knight that has seriously invested in say 2 lightsaber specs at the expense of force rating might be force rating 2 still. And, a padawan about ready to take the trials who has focued on force use at the expense of the saber (e.g. seer, or any other 2 FR no dedication spec) might have force rating 3, and as a newly minted jedi knight might have 4)

Also certain jedi masters might only have force rating between 4 and 6. And a jedi counsel master could have a FR between 5 and 7 (including Yoda in this range but I specifically called out Yoda as a 7).

A PC with Force Rating 2 can pretty easily replicate the bulk of Palpatine's Senate-tossing from RotS with the following: Move basic power, Strength Upgrade x2, Magnitude Upgrade x2, "hurl objects" Control Upgrade, needing a grand sum of 3 Force Points to activate those. They'd need to be FR 3 to pull it off reliably (especially if a dark sider), but it can be done with FR 2. You do need to buy a Range upgrade to get to that "hurl objects" Control Upgrade, but it's not really needed unless you want to smack someone that's currently at medium range (or long range if you've bought 2 of them).

Yoda's stopping and reflecting Dooku's Force lightning attempts really just needs 2 Force points if he's just stopping the attack for the basic power + Control Upgrade to use Protect as an out-of-turn incidental, 4 Force points if he wants to bounce it back, both of which are well within reach for Force Rating 3. Yoda's probably also got a Willpower of 4 (at least) and Discipline 5, so he's sure to get plenty of successes when rolling against a 2 difficulty, allowing him to stop extra damage, with the Strength Upgrades being gravy.

So in both those instances, Palps and Yoda could have the defensive and offensive Sense Control Upgrades going and still pull off the stuff we see them do on-screen with only rolling 4 Force dice each if going by the chart I suggested earlier, or even 3 Force dice if the GM pegs them as only being FR5. In the case of Yoda's stopping Dooku's Force lightning, he probably only had a single Force die committed to Sense's defense upgrade, leaving him 5 dice out of his proposed Force Rating 6.

From my play experiences, you can still pull off a fair amount of things with just Force Rating 3, and I do agree with Tramp in this particular instance that in practical experience, getting a Force Rating above 5 is pretty much overkill, and doesn't really serve any truly useful purpose beyond ego-stroking.

Technically, you don't have to earn conflict during a ssession to roll morality at the end. You simply need to be put into a situation where earning Conflic is possible. If you choose to not give into the temptation that would earn you Conflict, but instead choose the "right choice", then no Conflict earned and you're certain to go up in Morality at the end of the session.

An interesting "RAW legal" detail/fine-point/corner-case i'd like to mention, is that assuming that a character has a "1 automatic conflict per session talent" the a badly injurred/floating unconscious in a tank of bacta, character would still get a morality check at the end of a session (assuming that the player in question ran a NPC for the session that his regular character was left in the med bay to heal and maybe wake up with one or more new prosthetic appendages)

I like this list better:

FR 1: Initiate
FR 2: Padawan
FR 3: Experienced Padawan/young Jedi
FR 4: Experienced Jedi
FR 5: Jedi Master
FR 6: Council Master
FR 7: Senior Council Master (Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi)
FR 8: Vader
FR 9(+?): Yoda, Palpatine

However, Vader should be FR9 given he is a "vergence in the Force" with an "off the charts" Force ability. Yoda and Palpatine would have a greater knowledge (talents and force skills) than Vader, but he would have the higher FR.

In saying that, the EotE/AoR Jedi/Sith nemeses only have FR3, which highlights the game designers view on what is an appropriate FR for an experienced Force user. If you watch the original movies, the Force powers weren't over the top, so FR3 being an example of a capable user makes sense. Once the expanded universe and OP Marvel stuff started coming out, the Force powers were buffed so they would appear comparable, which doesn't quite work as well.

This is why players may feel that you need to throw a Senate chair or fall off a cliff and land on your feet in order to be at Jedi level. It's all relative to the landscape. Ep I - III is the OP, glorified, super-powerful, [fan service] Force user era. Ep IV-VI is the era of the more thematic, narrative, tasteful, less-is-more Force user.

I like this list better:

FR 1: Initiate

FR 2: Padawan

FR 3: Experienced Padawan/young Jedi

FR 4: Experienced Jedi

FR 5: Jedi Master

FR 6: Council Master

FR 7: Senior Council Master (Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi)

FR 8: Vader

FR 9(+?): Yoda, Palpatine

However, Vader should be FR9 given he is a "vergence in the Force" with an "off the charts" Force ability. Yoda and Palpatine would have a greater knowledge (talents and force skills) than Vader, but he would have the higher FR.

In saying that, the EotE/AoR Jedi/Sith nemeses only have FR3, which highlights the game designers view on what is an appropriate FR for an experienced Force user. If you watch the original movies, the Force powers weren't over the top, so FR3 being an example of a capable user makes sense. Once the expanded universe and OP Marvel stuff started coming out, the Force powers were buffed so they would appear comparable, which doesn't quite work as well.

This is why players may feel that you need to throw a Senate chair or fall off a cliff and land on your feet in order to be at Jedi level. It's all relative to the landscape. Ep I - III is the OP, glorified hyper Force user era. Ep IV-VI is the era of the more thematic, narrative, tasteful, less-is-more Force user.

Have you even played the game? Cause you foece rating chart is is crazy. Palps works well at 7. 2 more is way over the top.

I like this list better:

FR 1: Initiate

FR 2: Padawan

FR 3: Experienced Padawan/young Jedi

FR 4: Experienced Jedi

FR 5: Jedi Master

FR 6: Council Master

FR 7: Senior Council Master (Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi)

FR 8: Vader

FR 9(+?): Yoda, Palpatine

However, Vader should be FR9 given he is a "vergence in the Force" with an "off the charts" Force ability. Yoda and Palpatine would have a greater knowledge (talents and force skills) than Vader, but he would have the higher FR.

In saying that, the EotE/AoR Jedi/Sith nemeses only have FR3, which highlights the game designers view on what is an appropriate FR for an experienced Force user. If you watch the original movies, the Force powers weren't over the top, so FR3 being an example of a capable user makes sense. Once the expanded universe and OP Marvel stuff started coming out, the Force powers were buffed so they would appear comparable, which doesn't quite work as well.

This is why players may feel that you need to throw a Senate chair or fall off a cliff and land on your feet in order to be at Jedi level. It's all relative to the landscape. Ep I - III is the OP, glorified hyper Force user era. Ep IV-VI is the era of the more thematic, narrative, tasteful, less-is-more Force user.

Have you even played the game? Cause you foece rating chart is is crazy. Palps works well at 7. 2 more is way over the top.

Yes, been playing for years.

Did you read the whole post? FR is relative to the style of game you want to run. The FR1-9 would be better suited for an Ep I-III era game. FR1-6 would be better suited for an Ep IV-VI era game.

Technically, you don't have to earn conflict during a ssession to roll morality at the end. You simply need to be put into a situation where earning Conflic is possible. If you choose to not give into the temptation that would earn you Conflict, but instead choose the "right choice", then no Conflict earned and you're certain to go up in Morality at the end of the session.

An interesting "RAW legal" detail/fine-point/corner-case i'd like to mention, is that assuming that a character has a "1 automatic conflict per session talent" the a badly injurred/floating unconscious in a tank of bacta, character would still get a morality check at the end of a session (assuming that the player in question ran a NPC for the session that his regular character was left in the med bay to heal and maybe wake up with one or more new prosthetic appendages)

OK, I seem to have inserted a house rule then. It has never made any sense to a single person at our table to be able to roll if you have no conflict, so that was my bad. The whole "experience is the best teacher" and all that. AFB at the moment, so I cannot confirm, but I do seem to remember this was a highly debated topic in the past.

I like this list better:

FR 1: Initiate

FR 2: Padawan

FR 3: Experienced Padawan/young Jedi

FR 4: Experienced Jedi

FR 5: Jedi Master

FR 6: Council Master

FR 7: Senior Council Master (Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi)

FR 8: Vader

FR 9(+?): Yoda, Palpatine

However, Vader should be FR9 given he is a "vergence in the Force" with an "off the charts" Force ability. Yoda and Palpatine would have a greater knowledge (talents and force skills) than Vader, but he would have the higher FR.

In saying that, the EotE/AoR Jedi/Sith nemeses only have FR3, which highlights the game designers view on what is an appropriate FR for an experienced Force user. If you watch the original movies, the Force powers weren't over the top, so FR3 being an example of a capable user makes sense. Once the expanded universe and OP Marvel stuff started coming out, the Force powers were buffed so they would appear comparable, which doesn't quite work as well.

This is why players may feel that you need to throw a Senate chair or fall off a cliff and land on your feet in order to be at Jedi level. It's all relative to the landscape. Ep I - III is the OP, glorified hyper Force user era. Ep IV-VI is the era of the more thematic, narrative, tasteful, less-is-more Force user.

Have you even played the game? Cause you foece rating chart is is crazy. Palps works well at 7. 2 more is way over the top.

Yes, been playing for years.

Did you read the whole post? FR is relative to the style of game you want to run. The FR1-9 would be better suited for an Ep I-III era game. FR1-6 would be better suited for an Ep IV-VI era game.

I did. You can do everything Yoda did with force rating 7. So no 1-9 is not suited to a I-III game. 1-7 is suited to all games.

Technically, you don't have to earn conflict during a ssession to roll morality at the end. You simply need to be put into a situation where earning Conflic is possible. If you choose to not give into the temptation that would earn you Conflict, but instead choose the "right choice", then no Conflict earned and you're certain to go up in Morality at the end of the session.

An interesting "RAW legal" detail/fine-point/corner-case i'd like to mention, is that assuming that a character has a "1 automatic conflict per session talent" the a badly injurred/floating unconscious in a tank of bacta, character would still get a morality check at the end of a session (assuming that the player in question ran a NPC for the session that his regular character was left in the med bay to heal and maybe wake up with one or more new prosthetic appendages)

OK, I seem to have inserted a house rule then. It has never made any sense to a single person at our table to be able to roll if you have no conflict, so that was my bad. The whole "experience is the best teacher" and all that. AFB at the moment, so I cannot confirm, but I do seem to remember this was a highly debated topic in the past.

The Devs said you have to be in a conflicting situation. IE if you are asleep all game no conflict. But if you go out and have the potential to earn conflict. Then you roll. even if you did not earn any.

Technically, you don't have to earn conflict during a ssession to roll morality at the end. You simply need to be put into a situation where earning Conflic is possible. If you choose to not give into the temptation that would earn you Conflict, but instead choose the "right choice", then no Conflict earned and you're certain to go up in Morality at the end of the session.

An interesting "RAW legal" detail/fine-point/corner-case i'd like to mention, is that assuming that a character has a "1 automatic conflict per session talent" the a badly injurred/floating unconscious in a tank of bacta, character would still get a morality check at the end of a session (assuming that the player in question ran a NPC for the session that his regular character was left in the med bay to heal and maybe wake up with one or more new prosthetic appendages)

OK, I seem to have inserted a house rule then. It has never made any sense to a single person at our table to be able to roll if you have no conflict, so that was my bad. The whole "experience is the best teacher" and all that. AFB at the moment, so I cannot confirm, but I do seem to remember this was a highly debated topic in the past.

The Devs said you have to be in a conflicting situation. IE if you are asleep all game no conflict. But if you go out and have the potential to earn conflict. Then you roll. even if you did not earn any.

if you have a conflict talent your are in a conflicting situation EVERY SINGLE SESSION (even if you spent that session floating in a tank of bacta) *because of* the conflict talent.