I've always had really great experiences with Miniature Market.

I've had more issues crop up with Amazon orders (which have been really unfortunate).

Errors/mistakes happen everywhere, seems silly that some folks take it so personally.

It's not personal. If the singles from the shipment I was supposed to get sold like they had been, then MM just cost me a few thousand dollars in profit. Continuing to rely on them as a source for my inventory at this point would just be bad business. Everyone can buy from whomever they choose. I was just sharing my story about how MM failed my needs. Like I said, I used to love them, but this incident cost me too much to ever consider using them again. Do what you want, just be aware that they are responsible for some of the order mistakes and their little forum release doesn't explain why mistakes like mine happened.

I placed an order for 26 booster boxes in mid-December when MM still said that they were shipping January 2017. I even got an email from them on the ice storm Friday that my order would be delayed due to the weather. The next Tuesday, I called them to confirm that the order would ship and they said that I didn't have my order in for the January 2017 shipment and that I ordered when it said Feb/March. That is a flat out lie. They kept my pre-order or shipped it to someone else. I'm in the singles market on eBay, so I guess I'm a competitor of them. Maybe that's why they lied to me and didn't fulfill my order. Regardless, I'll never order anything from them again. CoolStuff Inc and Potomac Dist now have all their business from me. I had a four year relationship with MM. They got all my orders for X-Wing, GoT, Netrunner, and LotR. I guess that doesn't matter to them anymore.

I can't say you'll get much luck with sympathy from anywhere here after stating that you're in the singles market and missed out on getting your 26 boxes to flip singles. People here are reporting they can't get one box and I would go so far as to say flippers like yourself are a major contributing reason as to why there is so few sealed product.

I'm in on the "early 2017" preorder wave. Preordered both starters and 2 booster boxes on 12/31. When I preordered I assumed early 2017 was January since FFG had announced the waves as 12/1, 12/15, 12/22, and early January. All of the previous dates had passed so I figured I'd be in on the early January boat. Obviously wasn't so I emailed MM to find out if I'd been bumped and if there was another wave (this was prior to them posting on here). They responded back this morning and said that early 2027 meant 1st qtr 2017 and when they found out it would be closer to feb/March they made the update to feb/march.

I do hope there is a feb/march wave.

What I found funny is that an hour after they responded to my email, I got an auto email from them that said "sell us your Star Wars destiny singles". I chuckled at that a bit. If only they had filled my order, I might have some singles to sell them.

I understand everything just fine and the trolling has been reported.

I doubt the percentages of canceled orders are any less or more compared to online or brick and motor and just because there is a prepay it doesn't mean a refund will not be issued when requested, especially when the merchant has yet to deliver or is unable to deliver the product. So this whole merchant is protect by prepay is simply not true. Also brick and motor shops have far less volume of sales so a run of cancellations are harder for them to absorb, not the other way around as you describe. In truth, the brick and motors are lucky to make a profit at all and why so many have disappeared over the past decade. On top of this, many merchants don't prepay the distributor for the merchandise. They can usually buy on credit, or if they are big enough, they can pay as the merchandise sells. Small brick and motor stores may not get to do this like a MM or CSI can and have to pay on shipment. There is no need for them to collect money months in advance as they themselves don't have to pay months in advance. Most likely they have a net-30 on their POs from the distributor. So they don't even pay when their stuff ships.

There are several reasons why big etailers are smart and don't charge until they ship. First is the situation MM is currently in. They have egg all over their face right now. This hurts their business and is completely not necessary. They should have cash on hand to cover the order although they most likely buy on credit. Second, payment information is easy to verify without actually charging until the product is ready to ship. So there isn't much risk of the payment information going bad. They are more likely to get an out right cancellation than a credit card number expiring before shipment. Also when the cancellation does happen, no need to issue a refund, which can actually cost the retailer money in the form of credit card transaction fees on top of paying staff to process the refund. One of the big reasons is many people carry a balance on their CC and are paying anywhere from 4-23% annually on their CCs. This makes prepaying for anything for them very stupid, though many may still do it. Nevertheless by not charging until it ships they can get better access to those customers.

So in short, yes it is stupid for them to charge before they ship, just on the CC fees alone on the refunds. And after explaining how this stuff actually works maybe this misinformation that they somehow need your money first can go away.

Mep, you really have no idea what you are talking about. First, have you ever heard of PCI compliance. Please educate yourself here: https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/

The "big box" etailers you refer to have multi million dollar platforms that allow them to keep customers credit cards on file which is why they don't charge customers until their preorder comes in. While Miniature Market is one of the larger companies in this industry we do not and cannot afford a multi million dollar platform that is PCI compliant to store credit cards. Right now when you order from Miniature Market or any other website in our industry (not the big box guys) they do not have access to the credit card number. Your credit card is authorized for the amount at checkout and that is it. Even if I wanted to go back to any customer and bill them more at a later date I cannot.

Taking money up front has absolutely nothing to do with cash flow or fees (I'm not sure why you made that up)

We only have two options with preorders. Charge 100% up front (which we do) or do not take preorders. If we had to take the preorder and then go back and contact each customer one by one, get them on the phone and get their credit card info again the labor cost wouldn't be worth it.

Taking money up front for a preorder is not a shady business practice. Before you slander another company accusing them of defrauding people please do your homework first.

Miniature Market is 100% PCI compliant for the platform we are running on. All purchases are secure and your credit card information is not accessible by anyone at our company (including myself).

We appreciate everyone's business and we are very sorry that we were unable to fill all preorders for the first Star Wars Destiny set. We are hoping to hear more about the next print run this week or next. As I get more information I will attempt to share it with people here. If you do not want to wait for the next printing and have a current preorder with us please contact customer service and we will refund you immediately.

Steve @ Miniature Market

First you are right, taking money up front has absolutely nothing to do with cash flow. I however didn't make that up. You should read the thread again and pay attention this time. I responded to someone who thought that is exactly why you needed their money for preorders, which we both know is simply not true. It is your job and responsibility to correctly communicate the situation so people understand what is happening with their money as it is your job to fully understand the discussion before making such a reply.

You did communicate your problems with PCI compliance well. My apologies for failing to understand your situation which you failed to communicate until now. Clearly having the ability to hold CC information is something you need to strive for as it would solve several of your current problems (although often creates many others). I am sure there are 3rd parties which can handle your preoders for you so you wouldn't need to handle the CC information yourself while not holding onto other people's money for products you many never receive. This will allow you to charge when you ship, granted, at a price. Considering the current situation you put yourself in, it may be worth it and I am sure there are several 3rd parties which would be very happy to receive their fee for doing this. You may even want to ask your current provider what can be done to help with this situation.

Also note I never once used the word 'defraud'. That was entirely your description and something you made up. Currently you are in possession of a lot of other peoples money for a product you do not know when, or if even ever, you can fulfill. On top of this you clearly are not communicating well with these people and the status of their money as there are several complaints and confusion about what is happening. The situation is questionable. Another word for questionable is shady, which is a better word due to the lack of communication which would shed a light on this rather irregular and questionable situation. The truth is no one knows what you are doing with their money but I doubt anyone is thinking you took it and ran off to Cancun and no one is/was making an accusation of fraud even if an accusation of slander was made.

The lack of Destiny product is not MM's fault but the lack of communication is their fault as is all the confusion and misconceptions out there. And yes, the lack of communication is questionable and is completely MM's responsibility. Trying to place any blame or responsibility on someone else like myself is just sad. Own your own mistakes.

Steve, please PM me your supervisor's contact information. I clearly need to have a conversation with them.

Steve, please PM me your supervisor's contact information. I clearly need to have a conversation with them.

I think you're pretty much talking to the owner and operator of Miniature Market:

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/about-us/

I placed an order for 26 booster boxes in mid-December when MM still said that they were shipping January 2017. I even got an email from them on the ice storm Friday that my order would be delayed due to the weather. The next Tuesday, I called them to confirm that the order would ship and they said that I didn't have my order in for the January 2017 shipment and that I ordered when it said Feb/March. That is a flat out lie. They kept my pre-order or shipped it to someone else. I'm in the singles market on eBay, so I guess I'm a competitor of them. Maybe that's why they lied to me and didn't fulfill my order. Regardless, I'll never order anything from them again. CoolStuff Inc and Potomac Dist now have all their business from me. I had a four year relationship with MM. They got all my orders for X-Wing, GoT, Netrunner, and LotR. I guess that doesn't matter to them anymore.

Considering they themselves don't have many of the singles in stock, I doubt there is a conflict of interests here. Although it isn't too hard to figure out what you are going to do with those 26 boxes. It isn't for personal use. Again, when they don't clearly communicate the situation, these types of situations become questionable because there is no information to put those acts in context. Either they didn't get as many boxes in that they thought and you got bumped down to another shipment date or something else happen? That is a lot of someone else's money for them to be in possession of without clearly communicating what is going on.

I placed an order for 26 booster boxes in mid-December when MM still said that they were shipping January 2017. I even got an email from them on the ice storm Friday that my order would be delayed due to the weather. The next Tuesday, I called them to confirm that the order would ship and they said that I didn't have my order in for the January 2017 shipment and that I ordered when it said Feb/March. That is a flat out lie. They kept my pre-order or shipped it to someone else. I'm in the singles market on eBay, so I guess I'm a competitor of them. Maybe that's why they lied to me and didn't fulfill my order. Regardless, I'll never order anything from them again. CoolStuff Inc and Potomac Dist now have all their business from me. I had a four year relationship with MM. They got all my orders for X-Wing, GoT, Netrunner, and LotR. I guess that doesn't matter to them anymore.

I can't say you'll get much luck with sympathy from anywhere here after stating that you're in the singles market and missed out on getting your 26 boxes to flip singles. People here are reporting they can't get one box and I would go so far as to say flippers like yourself are a major contributing reason as to why there is so few sealed product.

FFG's lack of production is the reason you cannot get product. They underestimated demand. For a collectible game to be successful, it requires three things: Supply for new players; Organized Play; and a healthy secondary market. It's not the secondary market's fault that FFG has been awful a the first two components. If all the boxes from the secondary market got distributed to players, that would be what? An extra 10 packs per player? Right now, the secondary market and local trades are the only thing letting people play the decks they want to. I got into the singles game when I first heard of this release. I mean, when a company notorious for distribution issues, slaps Star Wars on a collectible product and then has the short-sightedness to make Uncommon cards as rare as their Rare cards. The first wave of product had the uncommon sell for the price of the pack. The rare was straight profit. That's not the single market's fault. That's all FFG and their inexperience with this sort of thing.

But, to stay on topic. I could care less for sympathy. I really just want other consumers to realize that MiniMarket shouldn't be absolved of blame here. As has been stated above, their lack of communication and unclear representation of when a customer will receive product has been awful. CoolStuff pulls their pre-orders until one wave is out and the next wave is known. That seems a classier way to take preorders to me.

Oh, and MM, you could also take a deposit for preorders. Multiple non-PCI compliant companies take a deposit instead of the entire thing. The deposit protects you from restock fees if the customer bails out or cannot pay when the product is available, yet holds the product for the customer. Best of both worlds.

Considering they themselves don't have many of the singles in stock, I doubt there is a conflict of interests here. Although it isn't too hard to figure out what you are going to do with those 26 boxes. It isn't for personal use. Again, when they don't clearly communicate the situation, these types of situations become questionable because there is no information to put those acts in context. Either they didn't get as many boxes in that they thought and you got bumped down to another shipment date or something else happen? That is a lot of someone else's money for them to be in possession of without clearly communicating what is going on.

You would think so. But, when you get an email on a Friday saying that my shipment will be delayed due to weather and that it will ship out the next week after MLK day, then one thinks they're going to get that shipment. No one from MM communicated to me that next Tuesday or Wednesday. I emailed them and called them. That was a lot of my money they were holding onto to not provide me the product I ordered in time to receive.

And, what does it matter if it was for personal use or not. That doesn't matter at all. I'm not buying direct from a distributor, I'm paying retail. So, what I do with the product is for me to decide.

But, to stay on topic. I could care less for sympathy. I really just want other consumers to realize that MiniMarket shouldn't be absolved of blame here. As has been stated above, their lack of communication and unclear representation of when a customer will receive product has been awful. CoolStuff pulls their pre-orders until one wave is out and the next wave is known. That seems a classier way to take preorders to me.

But you do want sympathy. Its obvious from how you're complaining about not getting your 26 boxes, which is more than any one person should get - most stores didn't even get 1/4 of that. And you're whining about lost profits - on a game forum. We're here for the game, not money.

You're a flipper. Whether it's action figures, trading cards, collectibles games, flippers are all the same. When non-flippers can't get a product because people like you have looted it to death, you don't care. But when a flipper can't get what they want, they throw everyone else under the bus and whine about how the system is broken.

That email about the ice storm threw me off too. I was expecting a shipment this past week. I also ordered when it the release was early January. Apparently that's not happening. That status changed on my order page. I would appreciate an email from MM explaining what is going on as well. It would be nice to hear from them what's going on. A direct communication with their customers is only fair at this point. And FFG, please stop staying silent. What's going on with this game? You have to have some information to share. Right?

Just be careful relying on MiniMarket is my only message. I was merely explaining my situation and how MM failed my expectations. This is the only game I've ever bought to flip. I'm a player first and just a guy selling some cards from his basement second. Again, the secondary market is in no way to blame for the lack of product. If it weren't for them, fewer people would be able to build the decks they want to.

Warning consumers of improper business practices by a company just means I want them to think twice about who they give their money to. Frequent MM or don't. Just be informed.

Just be careful relying on MiniMarket is my only message. I was merely explaining my situation and how MM failed my expectations. This is the only game I've ever bought to flip. I'm a player first and just a guy selling some cards from his basement second. Again, the secondary market is in no way to blame for the lack of product.

How stupid do you think people here are? The only game you've ever flipped and you're jumping 26 boxes deep? Just a guy selling cards from his basement at the tune of 26 boxes? Gimme a break...

Well, I've sold about 50 boxes. Those 26 would have made it over 75. You can check my eBay profile if you don't believe that I'm not a company or seasoned flipper. As a flipper, looks like I've got an awful little amount of feedback. I don't think anyone is stupid without getting to know them. I just know I was smart enough to recognize a money making opportunity dealing with a hobby that I love. Thanks for being insulting and over-reactive though.

This thread is full of trollery. Good God.

Steve, please PM me your supervisor's contact information. I clearly need to have a conversation with them.

I think you're pretty much talking to the owner and operator of Miniature Market:

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/about-us/

If that is the owner then the first thing he needs to do is not post on this forum anymore. The next thing he needs to do is hire a lawyer and have a conversation about FTC's 16 C.F.R. part 435 and figure out a way to get into compliance. After eating all those CC fees from all those refunds he needs to work with his credit card processing company to figure out a good automated method of charging preorders when they ship so he doesn't put himself in this predicament again.

I'll repeat myself, being in possession of other people's money when you have no reasonable expectation of when, or even if you can ever fulfill those orders is a bad idea. Continuing to take possession of other people's money when you know you have no reasonable expectations of fulfilling those orders in any reasonable amount of time if ever is also a bad idea.

Yes, the supply issues are entirely FF's problem. I am sure they well eventually work through their manufacturing problems and 6 to 9 months from now this will all be a distant memory. MM being caught with their pants down on the supply issue due to their own bad procedures is however entirely their fault. If that was Steve the owner, then accusing one of his customers for slander while not being in compliance of FTC rules doesn't speak well toward his genius but he did build MM and is clearly not stupid. I am sure he will learn some lessons from this and do better in the future as well.

Believe it or not, I am not being a jerk. The criticism may be harsh but constructive. If you can avoid being in possession of other people's money, then do so.

I'll be a little candid. I've done business with Miniature Market and CoolStuffInc before. With both I've had good business relationships and done pre-orders with both businesses. Both businesses charge for their pre-orders once it has been placed. This has been the practice for 5+ years since I've ordered from them. It's expected unless this is your first pre-order with them.

Quite candidly, I can't speak for the current situation. I would recommend if folks have an issue with their order or want a refund then they need to contact Miniature Market, http://www.miniaturemarket.com/customer-support/ . If they an issue with the current lack supply of Star Wars Destiny then they need contact FFG Customer Service ( https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/ ) and a representation from FFG should address this issue on the forum.

If there are ethical business issue(s) then you can contact the Better Business Bureau, http://www.bbb.org . I understand some folks may be upset because they have not received their product. However, I think some folks need to step back and reassess their particular situation for themselves.

Each person can do business with who they want in the future depending on their experience. Personally, I've had an incident with one of the companies I mentioned. However, I've continued to do business with them because the past good experiences outweighed that single incident. I'm in no way affiliated with Miniature Market or CoolStuffInc. This will probably be the last time I look at this particular thread.

Peace out and have a good day.

Lack of communication for sure, finally got an answer to my nearly month old question.
sure would have been nice if mm had looked up my order and given me the information i asked for on the 4th when i asked about my order, guess they thought i just included my order number for fun.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwVQab-dlrl6S3p0WlMxYk1saDg/view?usp=sharing

MM likes to chime in when they're in danger of looking bad in public.

MM gave a perfectly reasonable explanation, anything past this is bashing or trolling. Methinks we have some entitled younglings new to the ways of the preorder, and not the decades of experience like some of us...

On 1/24/2017 at 11:45 PM, WonderWAAAGH said:

MM likes to chime in when they're in danger of looking bad in public.

You say that like it isn't the most natural thing in the world.

If I were being publicly bashed, I'd chime in to defend myself, too.

14 hours ago, ogboot said:

MM gave a perfectly reasonable explanation, anything past this is bashing or trolling. Methinks we have some entitled younglings new to the ways of the preorder, and not the decades of experience like some of us...

The Federal Trade Commission has decades old rules and regulations that cover this very thing. Individual's experiences aren't irrelevant. People don't really grow up, they just grow old, so assuming someone's age .... well we all know the thing thing about assuming.

Just to be clear, no one did anything here to MM. They over sold and poorly communicated the situation. They themselves created this situation and are solely responsible for it. People have every right to give reviews based on their experiences and to offer feed back. This is neither bashing nor trolling. This is also the wrong venue for MM to address the situation they created. They need to be communicating with their customers directly, which it appears they are not, hence why they have a problem.

What I don't get is that the only official announcement we have from FFG, at least that I've seen is that the waves for Awakenings was 12/1, 12/15, 12/22, and early Jan which ended up being 1/13. MM has stated that they found out there was a wave in feb/march which is why they sold preorders from that wave. Why no announcement from FFG that there is a feb/march wave? Based on what FFG has said originally when Awakenings released is that all of the Awakenings waves have launched. Where did this feb/march wave come from that MM has stated they found out about?

17 hours ago, Mep said:

The Federal Trade Commission has decades old rules and regulations that cover this very thing. Individual's experiences aren't irrelevant. People don't really grow up, they just grow old, so assuming someone's age .... well we all know the thing thing about assuming.

Just to be clear, no one did anything here to MM. They over sold and poorly communicated the situation. They themselves created this situation and are solely responsible for it. People have every right to give reviews based on their experiences and to offer feed back. This is neither bashing nor trolling. This is also the wrong venue for MM to address the situation they created. They need to be communicating with their customers directly, which it appears they are not, hence why they have a problem.

Hmmm, Mep, my comments seem to have struck a nerve. I seriously doubt that MM has run afoul of the FTC (overdramatic much?). The facts are that prior to the advent of online retailers like Amazon it was like this for decades and nothing has changed. You paid up front for preorders and then waited. Oh and shipping took 4-6 weeks, with 2 weeks on top to process the order. Imagine that as a kid.

Since you want to be clear, MM hasn't done anything to you either. There's not a court in the land that would reward you anything punitive for your experience with them. MM even called out the reports in this thread, stated that everything that was supposed to ship by January has gone out the door, and for those that disagree to contact them directly. Nobody has commented with those statements since. So, they are working with those people who decided to post their grievances on a public forum instead of communicating directly with MM.

Invoking the FTC, demanding supervisor contact information, etc...

It's making someone look bad, but it's not MM.