All of us who have started to play CC campaign now know, that a ship can leave a battle in turns 4 or 5.

But what happens when a ship do to bad flying, bumbing or otherwise, unintentionally leaves the play area?

In a casual or tourny game I can fully understand that a ship counts as destroyed, when partially or fully leaves the play area.

But in the context of a campaign, it seems very harsh to get a ship at full health, to be scarred or completely eliminated, because it sticks 1mm outside the play area.

For me ships should only be scarred/eliminated in a campaign, when the opposition does something active and put an actual effort into destroying them by shooting at them. (Or ramming them, if that's your preference )

Having a ship scarred/eliminated because it passes a arbitrary line that defines the combat zone, seems to be against IMHO of how the Star Wars universe works or any other real world military campaign.

F.eks. A US army unit that accidently crosses the Pakistani border by a few meters and then return back into Afghan territory, is not sendt back home immidiateley or outright killed, for crossing a line an a map. (Sorry it was the only example I could think of, at the moment and I hope it dosn't spark of some discussion about US involvement in the middleeast)

At the same time it shouldn't be penalty free for partially leaving the play area, as that would encourage actions by the owner of the ship, that would be against the spirit of the game.

So what relativ simple Campaign rule could be intruduced, that still incourages one to stay within the confines of the play ara, but that dosn't give a to harsh penalty in the form of scarring/eliminating a otherwise full health ship.

A simple rule to me would be:

If a ship partially or fully moves outside the play area, it counts as destroyed when determinating the winner of the battle, but not is not scarred or eliminated in the campaign.

However because the ship has left the play area in an unauthorised way, it is considered to have made a blind jump out of the combat zone and gotten itself lost in the process. And because it takes some time for the ship to find its way back to its parent fleet unit, you can't use it in the next campaign turn or spend refit and resource points to unscar it.

This way ships are not scarred/eliminated for a minor trespass, but are made unavailable for the next campaign turn as well as being excluded from the possibilty of being unscarred.

So what do you think???

Another long Ewok snowball from the Kiwi Rat

HOUSE RULE TIME!!!!

On the actual subject, my initial reaction is that what you have there is about as close to a balanced, fair and fun house rule as you're going to get on this particular subject.

I personally take the "considered to have made a blind jump out of the combat zone and gotten itself lost in the process. And because it takes some time for the ship to find its way back to its parent fleet unit, " to be the rational for why it's 'scarred'. It used up too much precious fuel/ammo/personnel while lost and potentially fighting off pirates/mutiny/space slugs. Then, when it arrives 'home', it doesn't have the time to properly resupply before jumping straight back out to the next fight. Hence, it's scarred even though it may not have taken any damage during the proper fight played out on the table. Now, I realise that can be a bit of a long bow to draw for some and I totally understand why you'd want to House Rule this.

So go for it! What you got there doesn't look too bad. I'd be very interested for you to tell us, later, how it actually plays out and if it is even abuse-able to the point where players are employing it as a frequent tactic (it probably isn't, but these things can often be difficult to tell on paper and become apparent over time and testing.)

I think the rules clearly state that a ship leaving the play area is destroyed, period. So, it will be either scarred or destroyed, depending on its prior status. If you don't want this to happen, then fly better.

I for one despise house rules with a passion, and will absolutely refuse to use any such. But, this game is for fun after all! If everyone in your group agrees with this ruling in your campaign, well then go for it!

Once groups play through the campaign I'd like to see a thread on house rules. I've got one or two.

Doesn't the core rulebook say that a ship that lands outside the battlefield has fled? And that ships that fled count as destroyed?

To me, that seems pretty clear that in the cc there's two ways to run away and prevent scaring. A ship that's counting as destroyed isn't actually destroyed. So rejoice! Poor flying is only mostly bad.

I think the rules clearly state that a ship leaving the play area is destroyed, period. So, it will be either scarred or destroyed, depending on its prior status. If you don't want this to happen, then fly better.

I for one despise house rules with a passion, and will absolutely refuse to use any such. But, this game is for fun after all! If everyone in your group agrees with this ruling in your campaign, well then go for it!

Its sort of akind to the fact, that if you don't have any ships left in the play area, all what you have of squadrons left on the table, count as destroyed for determining the winner or looser of the battle, but the squads don't count as Scarred/Eliminated for the purpose of the campaign.

Because then tabling someone is perhaps a more efficient way of eliminating sqds in the campaign than going for them directly.

I'm just trying to higlight the point that if someone unintentionally moves a full health ship by a fraction of an inch outside the play area, it has fled the battle, and technically its counted as destroyed when determining who wins or loose the battle.

But when you see it in the Context of a Campaign, it has just fled a battle and would realistically still exist as a military unit, available to be used later on.

Having it outright Scarred/Eliminated seams rather illogical.

After all there are no NKVD units in the Star Wars universe which shoots its own ships that happens to flee a battle

I think the reason it counts as destroyed is because this is still a game, and what you are proposing could easily be abused. Say we are playing a game, and you roll my squadrons and I wasn't expecting that. Or you are lighting up the objective tokens and I can't catch up. Then I fly all my stuff off the table to "retreat." That isn't very fun for anyone, is it? Oh I don't like the match up I am seeing, let my Hyperspace outta there.

I understand where you are coming from, but it goes against the intent of the game. Scarring isn't really that big of a deal, usually you walk away with enough resources to fix a lot of stuff.

I think the reason it counts as destroyed is because this is still a game, and what you are proposing could easily be abused. Say we are playing a game, and you roll my squadrons and I wasn't expecting that. Or you are lighting up the objective tokens and I can't catch up. Then I fly all my stuff off the table to "retreat." That isn't very fun for anyone, is it? Oh I don't like the match up I am seeing, let my Hyperspace outta there.

I understand where you are coming from, but it goes against the intent of the game. Scarring isn't really that big of a deal, usually you walk away with enough resources to fix a lot of stuff.

And again someone didn't read exactly or wholy understood what my intent or point is.

But said in short, if someone intentionally or unintentionally ends a ships movement partially outside the play area, that ship counts as destroyed in context of the battle.

But in context of the campaign it can never be eliminated, but if it isn't already scarred it will be. Plus you can't unscar a ship that has left the battle by moving partially outside the play area. (This is to discourage any abuse of it)

Said even shorter, you can never loose a ship permanently in CC, if it by chance ended its movement outside the play area, but the catch is that you can't repair (unscar) it either.

This still leaves the Hyperspace retreat, the best option to pull units out of the battle.

Doesn't the core rulebook say that a ship that lands outside the battlefield has fled? And that ships that fled count as destroyed?

To me, that seems pretty clear that in the cc there's two ways to run away and prevent scaring. A ship that's counting as destroyed isn't actually destroyed. So rejoice! Poor flying is only mostly bad.

I dont like your rule of the ship being unavailable for the next round. A ISD flying off means the players would be looking at half 1/4 to 1/5 of his fleet cost unavailable.

I take it as the ship is counted as destoryed but is not scarred. Juat like any squadrons left alive after the ship and popped are not scarred.

Remember it makes no difference if you win a battle by 1 point or 500 now.

The Rule in the RRG uses some pretty harsh wording: (Italic emphasis mine)

RRG, Page 9 "Play Area"

• If any portion of a ship’s or squadron’s base is outside the play area, that ship or squadron is destroyed. For this purpose, ignore activation sliders, shield dials, and the plastic portions of a ship’s base that frame shield dials.

Not Counted as Destroyed. Not Fled the Battlefield, and counted as. Not "For the purposes of Scoring" or anything like that.

Just. Destroyed.

Boom.

I think the reason it counts as destroyed is because this is still a game, and what you are proposing could easily be abused. Say we are playing a game, and you roll my squadrons and I wasn't expecting that. Or you are lighting up the objective tokens and I can't catch up. Then I fly all my stuff off the table to "retreat." That isn't very fun for anyone, is it? Oh I don't like the match up I am seeing, let my Hyperspace outta there.

I understand where you are coming from, but it goes against the intent of the game. Scarring isn't really that big of a deal, usually you walk away with enough resources to fix a lot of stuff.

And again someone didn't read exactly or wholy understood what my intent or point is.

But said in short, if someone intentionally or unintentionally ends a ships movement partially outside the play area, that ship counts as destroyed in context of the battle.

But in context of the campaign it can never be eliminated, but if it isn't already scarred it will be. Plus you can't unscar a ship that has left the battle by moving partially outside the play area. (This is to discourage any abuse of it)

Said even shorter, you can never loose a ship permanently in CC, if it by chance ended its movement outside the play area, but the catch is that you can't repair (unscar) it either.

This still leaves the Hyperspace retreat, the best option to pull units out of the battle.

I actually did read all that you said, and don't understand anything that I said that makes it seem like I missed your point. You want ships that fly off the table to be unscarred, and I said that is prone to shenanigans if someone wants to game the game. When you hyperspace retreat the ship still counts as destroyed as well, so intentional fly-offs, while don't make sense from a game standpoint, make sense in keeping people from exploiting a mechanic. I understand you said the ships are unavailable for the next campaign turn, but I still think it is susceptible to exploitation if ships are like one card from dead. I could see someone flying their ISD off intentionally just to keep it from having to be scarred, then using resource points to add a bunch of ships, and being fine with not having the ISD, just playing defensively and running the next game, even if they lose.

That said, if you have like-minded folks that think that rule would make things more fun, by all means. The great thing about this is you can add your own rules and, if you happen to play with folks that wouldn't exploit stuff like that, it could be a lot of fun.

In a campaign setting that rule can work. House ruling ect is much easier in campaign than for tournaments, where you need to reach a larger consensus of players you only play against in order to win real prizes in a competitive setting.

Campaign is not tournament, where you argue with someone over RRG and one side needs to "win" or be "correct" in order for the game to work. Your folks like ships running off being a legit saving-damage tactic, use it..

The best part of campaign play (in my opinion at least) is the flexibility to alter things, try different things to suit you and your friend's playstyles and preferences without it affecting a greater "meta".

The Calgary group is certainly taking the rules to heart, and then looking at Modifications.

We figure that anyone who leaves the battlefield (other than hyperspace) is actually ruthlessly hunted down by the enemy. Or it stumbles into an Asteroid field... Runs afoul of a Quasar. Something unexpected from the field of battle. If you're going to run away, you have to run right away... With Hyperspace. Otherwise your Sub-light engines just don't carry you far enough...

Or Pirates.

Talus and Tralus are right there.

I'm blaming a lot on Kath Scarlett at the moment...

**** Binyare Pirates...

"Screw the rules, I have money."

Yeah, I far prefer 'counts as destroyed' rather than 'is destroyed'. You still lose it for points, it doesn't gain veteran status, and if you're running away from every battle and still losing in VP, you're likely not winning the campaign.

For the moment, I'm playing Tournament Orthodox but I've got no interest in converting to that religion any time soon. Still, we have an individual who'll throw a fit if one hair is out of place.

I think the reason it counts as destroyed is because this is still a game, and what you are proposing could easily be abused. Say we are playing a game, and you roll my squadrons and I wasn't expecting that. Or you are lighting up the objective tokens and I can't catch up. Then I fly all my stuff off the table to "retreat." That isn't very fun for anyone, is it? Oh I don't like the match up I am seeing, let my Hyperspace outta there.

I understand where you are coming from, but it goes against the intent of the game. Scarring isn't really that big of a deal, usually you walk away with enough resources to fix a lot of stuff.

And again someone didn't read exactly or wholy understood what my intent or point is.

But said in short, if someone intentionally or unintentionally ends a ships movement partially outside the play area, that ship counts as destroyed in context of the battle.

But in context of the campaign it can never be eliminated, but if it isn't already scarred it will be. Plus you can't unscar a ship that has left the battle by moving partially outside the play area. (This is to discourage any abuse of it)

Said even shorter, you can never loose a ship permanently in CC, if it by chance ended its movement outside the play area, but the catch is that you can't repair (unscar) it either.

This still leaves the Hyperspace retreat, the best option to pull units out of the battle.

I actually did read all that you said, and don't understand anything that I said that makes it seem like I missed your point. You want ships that fly off the table to be unscarred, and I said that is prone to shenanigans if someone wants to game the game. When you hyperspace retreat the ship still counts as destroyed as well, so intentional fly-offs, while don't make sense from a game standpoint, make sense in keeping people from exploiting a mechanic. I understand you said the ships are unavailable for the next campaign turn, but I still think it is susceptible to exploitation if ships are like one card from dead. I could see someone flying their ISD off intentionally just to keep it from having to be scarred, then using resource points to add a bunch of ships, and being fine with not having the ISD, just playing defensively and running the next game, even if they lose.

That said, if you have like-minded folks that think that rule would make things more fun, by all means. The great thing about this is you can add your own rules and, if you happen to play with folks that wouldn't exploit stuff like that, it could be a lot of fun.

Yes I also considered that there would also be a situation where I.e. an ISD run off table with 10 damage cards,

So a simple solution I thought of is would be to say that if a ship end movement of table, the ship in question is subject to the following.

1) It will be scarred if its not that already.

2) Your are not allowed to use Refit or Resource points to unscar it.

3) It keeps any damage cards it have* and the next campaign turn it is deployed with them.

*Or may remove half, rounded down, of the facedown damage card (A squirrel at the back of my head insisted on this )

So the more damage a ship has when it run off table instead of running away in an orderly retreat in turns 4 and 5 , the harder it will be to get it into fighting fit condition.

But I still think its very weird that a full health ship that "Panicked" and fled the battle should be eliminated entirley from a campaign, when the only wrong doing was being a fraction of an inch outside the table at the end of its movement.

I want ships to be eliminated from the campaign due to good shooting from the enemy, not because some abritrary line has been slightly trespassed.

While at the same time I don't want that leniency i suggest to be abused, its a fine line somehow, I know, and you and the others have some valid points.

I do agree with you by the way, entirely, that having a ship miss a campaign turn all together was a ill conceived rule idea from me, and for that I apologize.

Aye, the more I think of it, I'm fine with scarred I just don't like permanently removed. It feels.... weird. You can always explain it away (the song of the space Dolphins called the guppy home) but I don't much care for it. Scarred, the loss of vet status, both are fine with me. I like keeping damage cards and critical effects, but that's a lot of bookeeping.

Thankfully, the Rieekan situation is still that it counts as destroyed in much the same way as trying to repair a dead ship with a repair crew or the like. Still, the immutable cosmic waterfall effect bothers me. -ponders- Just mulling aloud now for house rules and the like, so pay me little mind, but what about a token like 'skilled spacers'? Either to prevent the effect, 'IE Local Charts' or a token to destroy any ships that leave the table 'Savage Scavengers'? No more weird than what we've got.

I think the reason it counts as destroyed is because this is still a game, and what you are proposing could easily be abused. Say we are playing a game, and you roll my squadrons and I wasn't expecting that. Or you are lighting up the objective tokens and I can't catch up. Then I fly all my stuff off the table to "retreat." That isn't very fun for anyone, is it? Oh I don't like the match up I am seeing, let my Hyperspace outta there.

I understand where you are coming from, but it goes against the intent of the game. Scarring isn't really that big of a deal, usually you walk away with enough resources to fix a lot of stuff.

And again someone didn't read exactly or wholy understood what my intent or point is.

But said in short, if someone intentionally or unintentionally ends a ships movement partially outside the play area, that ship counts as destroyed in context of the battle.

But in context of the campaign it can never be eliminated, but if it isn't already scarred it will be. Plus you can't unscar a ship that has left the battle by moving partially outside the play area. (This is to discourage any abuse of it)

Said even shorter, you can never loose a ship permanently in CC, if it by chance ended its movement outside the play area, but the catch is that you can't repair (unscar) it either.

This still leaves the Hyperspace retreat, the best option to pull units out of the battle.

I actually did read all that you said, and don't understand anything that I said that makes it seem like I missed your point. You want ships that fly off the table to be unscarred, and I said that is prone to shenanigans if someone wants to game the game. When you hyperspace retreat the ship still counts as destroyed as well, so intentional fly-offs, while don't make sense from a game standpoint, make sense in keeping people from exploiting a mechanic. I understand you said the ships are unavailable for the next campaign turn, but I still think it is susceptible to exploitation if ships are like one card from dead. I could see someone flying their ISD off intentionally just to keep it from having to be scarred, then using resource points to add a bunch of ships, and being fine with not having the ISD, just playing defensively and running the next game, even if they lose.

That said, if you have like-minded folks that think that rule would make things more fun, by all means. The great thing about this is you can add your own rules and, if you happen to play with folks that wouldn't exploit stuff like that, it could be a lot of fun.

Yes I also considered that there would also be a situation where I.e. an ISD run off table with 10 damage cards,

So a simple solution I thought of is would be to say that if a ship end movement of table, the ship in question is subject to the following.

1) It will be scarred if its not that already.

2) Your are not allowed to use Refit or Resource points to unscar it.

3) It keeps any damage cards it have* and the next campaign turn it is deployed with them.

*Or may remove half, rounded down, of the facedown damage card (A squirrel at the back of my head insisted on this )

So the more damage a ship has when it run off table instead of running away in an orderly retreat in turns 4 and 5 , the harder it will be to get it into fighting fit condition.

But I still think its very weird that a full health ship that "Panicked" and fled the battle should be eliminated entirley from a campaign, when the only wrong doing was being a fraction of an inch outside the table at the end of its movement.

I want ships to be eliminated from the campaign due to good shooting from the enemy, not because some abritrary line has been slightly trespassed.

While at the same time I don't want that leniency i suggest to be abused, its a fine line somehow, I know, and you and the others have some valid points.

I do agree with you by the way, entirely, that having a ship miss a campaign turn all together was a ill conceived rule idea from me, and for that I apologize.

No need to apologize! Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that you are trying to explain a game mechanic more thoroughly in your house rules. I think it could be cool, you would just need to play with the right group that isn't going to try and fly away intentionally or whatever, or game the game. I do like that it sort of still punishes someone without severely doing so, very friendly to new players.

I think it's fair to say that the ship in question has had to make an emergency hyperspace jump.

As a result, the very best they can hope for is that they return to their base/fleet/shipyard without enough time to properly refit, refuel and rearm. As a result they've become 'scarred'.

At worst they are pursued by the enemy, encounter pirates or endure some other misadventure as Dras stated. At any rate, whatever happens after their emergency departure, they do not have enough time to rearm and refuel before the next battle.

The beauty of the campaign is that it who wins or loses, and what is considered acceptable, is contained to a group of maximum six players, so you can decide for yourselves where you're going to be lenient and where you're going to be harsh. In a tournament, you have to stick strictly to the rules, because otherwise it's unfair on everyone else playing in that tournament, and (in a regional/national/worlds setting) people playing in other tournaments. But in the campaign, all that matters is that everyone there is having a good time.

So my feeling is that, in the campaign, people are unlikely to be quite so upset if your ship is a millimetre off the board due to a slight mistake, and are more likely to be indulgent if it keeps the game playing and makes things more entertaining. It's in no-one's interests to create unnecessary disagreement and conflict, and few people will want to penalise an honest mistake. I would shy away, however, from specific rules to account for these situations, as a rule can be played to and change the spirit of the game. A player might decide that the condition a ship will end in if it goes off the board is better than having it destroyed on the board, depending on the penalty introduced. I would be more inclined to go on the discretion of fellow players, rather than on a new rule, in a campaign that has likely been heavily play tested.

I think the rules clearly state that a ship leaving the play area is destroyed, period. So, it will be either scarred or destroyed, depending on its prior status. If you don't want this to happen, then fly better.

I for one despise house rules with a passion, and will absolutely refuse to use any such. But, this game is for fun after all! If everyone in your group agrees with this ruling in your campaign, well then go for it!

Its sort of akind to the fact, that if you don't have any ships left in the play area, all what you have of squadrons left on the table, count as destroyed for determining the winner or looser of the battle, but the squads don't count as Scarred/Eliminated for the purpose of the campaign.

Because then tabling someone is perhaps a more efficient way of eliminating sqds in the campaign than going for them directly.

I'm just trying to higlight the point that if someone unintentionally moves a full health ship by a fraction of an inch outside the play area, it has fled the battle, and technically its counted as destroyed when determining who wins or loose the battle.

But when you see it in the Context of a Campaign, it has just fled a battle and would realistically still exist as a military unit, available to be used later on.

Having it outright Scarred/Eliminated seams rather illogical.

After all there are no NKVD units in the Star Wars universe which shoots its own ships that happens to flee a battle

Ahh, but CC has rules that explain what happens to the fighters. So this is fine, as it's covered by the rules.

Just like a ship leaving the play area is also covered....as as Dras said, it's destroyed. Period.

Also, you cannot ever use real world examples to justify something in a game. The game is designed with balance and fun in mind, and loosely based on reality ( or fiction, as this is Star Wars, after all). You can't use common sense to try and justify a ruling...lol. The only thing that matters here is the actual rules as published. A ship leaves the area....its nuked. Squadrons left? They count as destroyed, but not scarred, because the CC rules say so.

I have run into many a huge argument ( in a different game by a certain company whose name starts with G....) all because someone got taught the game by a guy who used extensive house rules, and of course now they tought that was the actual rule. At tourneys, no less. This is why I despise house rules and refuse to play with any. I play strictly by the rules as presented. Only way to go.

But like I said, hey, it's your campaign, so if everyone is cool, then go for it!

Our group has devised the following house rule to replace the existing rules for flying off the map:

Any ship that performs a movement that would put all or part of the ship off the edge of the play area is forced to perform an "Emergency Maneuver." Due to the stress of the maneuver, the ship is forced to reduce speed to zero and sustain face-down damage to its hull equal to the speed at which it was traveling. Instead of moving off the play area, the ship moves as far as possible toward the edge of the play area and then is turned 180 degrees so that it is facing in the opposite direction of travel, as if the ship had performed a K-Turn (as described in the Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game). The ship is delayed for one full round while performing this maneuver. Meaning, upon its next activation, instead of executing the full effect of its next command dial, the ship is instead forced to take a command token matching the command dial. The ship remains in its last valid position within the play area -- and thus remains vulnerable to attack while performing the maneuver. The ship still retains its attack ability but only gets one attack during its next activation and cannot otherwise move or change speed while delayed.

We didn't think it was very fun or realistic that ships got destroyed for leaving the edge of the play area, so we put the above rule in place to keep ships in play with a penalty. With this rule, ships are not scarred in the campaign because they are never destroyed (unless the maneuver itself causes it to be destroyed). We've enjoyed the rule, so thought I would share it for others to use and consider.

Two things

1. How are people flying ships officer the board ever... I have never had one of my ships fly off the board unintentionally... Not a brag...

2. Flying ships off the board in CC seems like the only reliable way to retire pieces that you no longer wish to have in your fleet...

13 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

2. Flying ships off the board in CC seems like the only reliable way to retire pieces that you no longer wish to have in your fleet...

Of course.

You were busy trashing my new fleet, why would I help you?

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Of course.

You were busy trashing my new fleet, why would I help you?

That raider had infinite hull!