Anyone have any ideas for this? They're cool units, and it would be neat to have them in a campaign even if they weren't being played as heroes. Would this break anything?

They are skirmish-only so that Nemeses cannot choose them as villains. If your group agrees to allow them for the IP, just use them.

As allies you would need to be very specific about them being rebel figures and rebel figures only regardless them being mercenary faction.

I think the imbalance would manifest through the fundamental differences of the campaign and skirmish. Their Health is probably a little high for the campaign compared to their deployment cost. Their abilities are not very skirmish-specific though, so it might work out with a bit of extra off-the-cuff balancing.

As a whole I don't think there's anything wrong with it but I can see concerns about giving the IP any of them.

I would be very afraid to give the IP a push effect as strong as Shyla's whip, especially on a figure that it will take multiple activations to dispose of.

Onar's push is much worse but still scares me and you still can't take him out with one activation.

The skirmish version of Vinto for some reason procs boltslinger even when he does no damage, this would be problematic in most escort missions.

I lean towards Vinto and Onar probably being okay but Shyla probably not.

They are skirmish-only so that Nemeses cannot choose them as villains. If your group agrees to allow them for the IP, just use them.

As allies you would need to be very specific about them being rebel figures and rebel figures only regardless them being mercenary faction.

I think the imbalance would manifest through the fundamental differences of the campaign and skirmish. Their Health is probably a little high for the campaign compared to their deployment cost. Their abilities are not very skirmish-specific though, so it might work out with a bit of extra off-the-cuff balancing.

which I really gotta say, that irks me alot. Vader and RGC everyone else then should have alot lower skirmish cost if that's the case, or the games shouldn't be different enough that costs matter between the two of them.

also those push abilities, especially Shyla's would make missions on Legendary where the players objective hinges on movement like Cloud City's Secret actually slightly winnable for the IP.

i was going to ask my group, if i could bring the new merc characters in with the nemesis deck. might be quite fun to have a new bounty hunter on their tails

Thanks for the input! I was just thinking that (as a Rebel player) it would be fun to see some more variety and special units in the game. Without the Nemesis deck, there isn't much motivation to buy the missions that get you unique units, because you still have to pay for them and they aren't better than Stormtroopers, Nexu, Probes, etc. I think it'd be fun to have to play around some more uniwue abilities. Maybe we'll try it and let you know how it goes

The pushes and such are USUALLY less harmful than stun, but there are a few missions where the rebels have to be in a certain position at the end of the round, such as adjacent to the entry point. In those cases it pretty much makes it impossible for the rebels as you can just shove someone off the spot they need to be after they've had their action.

umm it's not hard for the rebels to kill one figure, even if it has 12-15 hp. There is literally no rational reason those three are not permitted in Campaign mode.

umm it's not hard for the rebels to kill one figure, even if it has 12-15 hp. There is literally no rational reason those three are not permitted in Campaign mode.

Forcing the rebels to spend actions killing things rather than completing the objective, for example by putting troopers in front of a door, is usually how the Imperials win.

They are skirmish-only so that Nemeses cannot choose them as villains. If your group agrees to allow them for the IP, just use them.

As allies you would need to be very specific about them being rebel figures and rebel figures only regardless them being mercenary faction.

I think the imbalance would manifest through the fundamental differences of the campaign and skirmish. Their Health is probably a little high for the campaign compared to their deployment cost. Their abilities are not very skirmish-specific though, so it might work out with a bit of extra off-the-cuff balancing.

which I really gotta say, that irks me alot. Vader and RGC everyone else then should have alot lower skirmish cost if that's the case, or the games shouldn't be different enough that costs matter between the two of them.

If Vader and RGC were designed and printed today, they would. Those figs came out 2 years ago when the game was brand new, hindsight is 20/20.

They are skirmish-only so that Nemeses cannot choose them as villains. If your group agrees to allow them for the IP, just use them.

As allies you would need to be very specific about them being rebel figures and rebel figures only regardless them being mercenary faction.

I think the imbalance would manifest through the fundamental differences of the campaign and skirmish. Their Health is probably a little high for the campaign compared to their deployment cost. Their abilities are not very skirmish-specific though, so it might work out with a bit of extra off-the-cuff balancing.

which I really gotta say, that irks me alot. Vader and RGC everyone else then should have alot lower skirmish cost if that's the case, or the games shouldn't be different enough that costs matter between the two of them.

If Vader and RGC were designed and printed today, they would. Those figs came out 2 years ago when the game was brand new, hindsight is 20/20.

I'm pretty sure power creep is a legitimate criticism? FFG should fix their existing product before they make new ones.

Also yeah I'm aware of how the Imperial Player wins, that's who I have to be most of the time. Blocking doors with figures still doesn't always prevent the Rebels from completing objectives. They can have up to 8 attacks in a round (which actually usually means they have more attacks than you) and while you're both mostly making two-dice attacks, usually about half-way through the campaign, it's 8 three-four sometimes even five dice attacks coming from the Heroes each round. I've seen a focuses Diala use Dancing Weapon and Precise Strike on an AT-ST and and then she used Dancing Weapon and Precise Strike again, kiling it (she had the cybernetic arm for +1 Endurance). If the Rebels know what they are doing and they pick the right Heroes there is almost no stopping them without Subversive Tactics, and even with it, if they pick the right heroes, and know what they're doing, even that won't matter.

A push ability is SUPER STRONG for the Imperial player in terms of objective denial, but it's not like you can re-deploy that figure. It's really not that broken to throw a 6-8 threat at the Heroes and make at least one of them spend a round or a round an a half attacking.

Precise Strike is once per activation, so I assume it took another round or Gideon to defeat the AT-ST.

But yes, once the rebels learn the game and get a few good items and class cards, they are pretty unstoppable.

As for power creep - a good video about what is and what isn't power creep was posted just a few days ago. It's not power creep if a figure that got no play in the first place is superceded by something more powerful that might see play. In skirmish - even after the VP change - elite Stormtroopers and elite Probe Droids are still expected to be strong.

https://youtu.be/M3b3hDvRjJA

yeah it was on gideons turn she rested first to focus herself with battle meditation then something else focused her that I don't remember and then Gideon made her attack.

But anyway, defining something that got situational play, and was useful, but not necessarily the strongest or most consistent option in all situations, but then new additions make that previously situational strength completely obsolete, well that my friend is practically the literal definition of power creep.

like, Chewie's, RGCs, and Vader's strength was always their point denial more so than their actual preformance. If the seemingly simple task of recosting to rebalance is somehow intricately complex due to faction synergy etc. than they should just make some fairly expensive defense boosting attachments for Skirmish which can only be put on figures with a cost of 15 or more, to make that strategy viable again.

but I guess it doesn't really matter at the end of the day cause A. I think the Nemeses deck, even if you could choose Shyla as a Fringe Nemeses, the Nemeses deck would still be worse than Subversive Tactics and the Heroes will just stomp you anyway, and B. The Imperials were already rapidly becoming a worthless faction in Skirmish anyway. The Empire has toppled.

yeah it was on gideons turn she rested first to focus herself with battle meditation then something else focused her that I don't remember and then Gideon made her attack.

But anyway, defining something that got situational play, and was useful, but not necessarily the strongest or most consistent option in all situations, but then new additions make that previously situational strength completely obsolete, well that my friend is practically the literal definition of power creep.

No it isn't. Vader and RGC are over pointed and don't see play, and have never even been situational choices, they're just bad. Comparing something to the worst, least played unit in the game and saying it is power creep is like comparing a Ford pickup to a bicycle and saying there is power creep in Formula 1.

uh dude idk what game you are playing using Vader and your squad do do objectives and avoid people, and then go on the attack was always valid. People would devote their time to attacking him cause he's 18 points and those two defense dice would shut them down. Victory Point denial has always been a valid strategy, and still is to some degree, unless you've been playing a different game.

Like yeah the point is they are over pointed but that actually gave them a hidden strength, Vader and RGC were sort of like GOWK in SWM. But rather than release new stuff they should do something which makes their old stuff viable. They can still release new stuff too but dang, I'd rather see a game where every figure in that game is balanced within that game, rather than one where the newest releases are always getting more and more powerful. I get that making the new stuff more powerful incentivizes people to buy it, but if you just have an awesome well-rounded game well that's a better incentivization to buy more stuff for it.

This game is literally walking in the footsteps of SWM....It's doing all the right things and more, but it's taking on a few of those dirty old habits.

like rather than take the path of lowering Vader's and RGC's costs, imagine a 5 point attachment that adds bonus HP and an extra defense die to the defense pool of a figure with a cost of 15+? three blacks, or two blacks and a white? Sure you spent 20-23 points on one activation, which is sort of a waste, but that's basically 20-23 points your opponent will never be able to score.

But I'm drifting from my point. I think if you want to run Shyla/Vinto/Onar with Nemeses, than run them, and if your players don't want to let you use them with the Nemeses deck, then just use Subversive Tactics class deck. And then in the next campaign you can give them the same choice again

uh dude idk what game you are playing using Vader and your squad do do objectives and avoid people, and then go on the attack was always valid

Not if you wanted to win.