Come on people. The reason we don't have Zuckuss/4LOM in this wave should be pretty obvious. They've released one of the ESB bounty hunters as the Scum villain with every expansion. The exception being Jabba's Realm, where well, duh, the villain is Jabba. Why would you expect to get them in the filler waves that have always been primarily for skirmish?

Now, if we get the presumed Endor/DSII/whatever box and they aren't there, complain away. But *****ing about it with this wave is just silly.

4-LOM would have been a lot better than 0-0-0 And Zuckuss is a much better decision than a Jawa. I would have liked to have seen Zuckuss 4-LOM, and maybe BT-1 alone, and then Hera.... oh, alright, with Chopper.

Everyone knows what Jawas are, most people have no idea what a Zuckuss is. I'm happy we're getting Jawa, although I don't think it's a terribly good implementation. They should have given us a few different cards with different abilities and unit size, scavenger which has ion attacks, engineer which is an Imperial officer for droids, and lookout which is a 2 or 3 Jawa guard squad.

If they did go Zuckass, would that force them to include Ghand Hunters as a generic? (Akin to how we have Trandoshans and Bossk).

Not at all, observe the lack of Generic Mandalorian Mercenaries or... hideously scarred humans?

If they did go Zuckass, would that force them to include Ghand Hunters as a generic? (Akin to how we have Trandoshans and Bossk).

Not at all, observe the lack of Generic Mandalorian Mercenaries or... hideously scarred humans?

It wouldn't force them to, but I'm always open to generics, I think they allow more flavor for the imagination and yet another use for the figure. I'd rather have extra deployment options to run multiples or a Gand Army then be pidgeon-holed to only run a unique everytime.

If they did go Zuckass, would that force them to include Ghand Hunters as a generic? (Akin to how we have Trandoshans and Bossk).

Not at all, observe the lack of Generic Mandalorian Mercenaries or... hideously scarred humans?

It wouldn't force them to, but I'm always open to generics, I think they allow more flavor for the imagination and yet another use for the figure. I'd rather have extra deployment options to run multiples or a Gand Army then be pidgeon-holed to only run a unique everytime.

I would totally be down with Mandalorian Mercenaries and Gand Findsmen in the game. Mandos could be a cool rethought of a Jet Trooper sort of mobile unit with Heavy Weapon or something, and I could see Gand being the first generic Force User card in the game, like a Hunter/Force User or something like a Hunter/Spy approach, which Mercs are also missing. How could you implement a sort of "find this character" mechanic to a game where the locations of all figures are visible?

I've never priced him. I should probably revisit this. It was before Hidden.

I've never priced him. I should probably revisit this. It was before Hidden.

I'd almost go another route

11 health, YYG for his ranged attack, like Blaise and then give him some surge for damage as well. Allow his Foresight to reroll an attack die as well make him 5 pts.

Things have come along way since I made this guy. It seems 3 attack dice is becoming the norm, which is a trend I don't particularly like, but I guess I understand it with some uniques. I was going to have his card represent his special gand martial art (can't remember the name of it) that jumped him to any space squares away.

Yeah, again, it seems like FFG have realized that even with a lot of health or cool attack abilities, you can't beat the action economy of a three man squad. I'm glad that it's actually fathomable that we could get an 11 health ally/villain for 5 pts now, but I wish we'd get updated cards for Vader and co- just throw them in with the next expansion or something.

Because honestly, with Hera being a mere 4 pts and having a 3 dice attack, is there ever going to be a reason to bring Han along anymore?

Yeah, again, it seems like FFG have realized that even with a lot of health or cool attack abilities, you can't beat the action economy of a three man squad. I'm glad that it's actually fathomable that we could get an 11 health ally/villain for 5 pts now, but I wish we'd get updated cards for Vader and co- just throw them in with the next expansion or something.

Because honestly, with Hera being a mere 4 pts and having a 3 dice attack, is there ever going to be a reason to bring Han along anymore?

No, and that's partly what I think people mean by power creep. I realize costing is a delicate balancing act, but it seems uniques are getting ridiculously low priced now, and 3 AD is standard fair. I guess that fine for uniques, being that they are heroes/villains. I just wish it would have been the norm from the start. I can't wait to read reviews from people who like to do pre-release testing.

Yeah, again, it seems like FFG have realized that even with a lot of health or cool attack abilities, you can't beat the action economy of a three man squad. I'm glad that it's actually fathomable that we could get an 11 health ally/villain for 5 pts now, but I wish we'd get updated cards for Vader and co- just throw them in with the next expansion or something.

Because honestly, with Hera being a mere 4 pts and having a 3 dice attack, is there ever going to be a reason to bring Han along anymore?

No, and that's partly what I think people mean by power creep. I realize costing is a delicate balancing act, but it seems uniques are getting ridiculously low priced now, and 3 AD is standard fair. I guess that fine for uniques, being that they are heroes/villains. I just wish it would have been the norm from the start. I can't wait to read reviews from people who like to do pre-release testing.

Yeah, I understand that, truly.

I'm not so sure "power creep" is quite fair, as I think it's clear that the biggest issues are Waves 1 and 2 (minus the droids, of course). But I get the frustration.

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

I think the thing is that the figures being crept on were borderline unplayable in the first place. Also I (and I think a lot of other people) are used to power creep having negative connotations and basically being about selling more stuff and so want to avoid the term because we think that this is good for the game.

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

Much of the core and wave 1 was balanced for end game campaign - which means it was not really given much playtesting for skirmish. We're almost lucky to even have skirmish. There's a whole long history in this topic and I've linked in other places to a good reddit to check out and some interviews. But there's a bunch of reasons why balancing characters mainly for campaign play would mess with skirmish. They didn't even come up with skirmish versions for the same character until they gave R2 a campaign ability that didn't translate into skirmish at all, so why not have a skirmish only version with a different ability and card? Eureka!

They errata'd royal guards, sabs, and regular officers because they were too strong. They essentially broke the skirmish game. They haven't dealt with things that are too weak with direct erratas but they've said they know it's a problem. What they'll do to fix they can't promise or talk about. See the app (and other FFG games) for why they won't give details/promised during development - plenty of people have put words into their mouths on the app front when all they've done is announced one is being worked on. If they made any announcement for fixing overcosted stuff there'd be a crazy amount of frustration on these boards - more so than the no current announcement I would argue

Now, they have also said a few times the baseline (or power curve) they want the game to align to as far as efficiency/cost effectiveness. The elite storm troopers and elite probe droids. If we extrapolate from those two units we can theoretically make a curve of cost/power and see how old units (but more importantly new units) line up with that curve. It's not power creep if new stuff lines up with the designers intended power curve - which arguably was figured out for skirmish around the time twin suns was released (not while twin suns was being developed - since the design team was in a transition of who was in charge and there's roughly a year long developlment cycle from concept to stores). So Hoth was able to have some things tweaked during development. Bespin was a lot better. Obi Wan wave is very well priced. Jabba wave is too. And now we get to droids. I'm likely a little off on when exactly what baseline was fleshed out and made changes but hopefully this is very close to the way it went - judging from interviews.

Now I want to test an example. Hera has a three dice attack. But only surge for plus one and pierce one. I think her max hit (unfocused) is for six with pierce three (one damage and 2 surge yellow result). Greedo, has an auto plus one damage and a surge for plus two. He has a two dice attack that can result in a max hit (unfocused) of six as well. They are both 4 cost characters. Both have 7 health. They have different abilities. But they hit basically the same - though I'd argue greedo has a better damage floor with the auto one damage and surge for 2 more. All that to say three dice attacks can be deceptive, and to ask an honest question - is there power creep here or following the power curve?

I hope this helps a little

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

So, this is the reason (in my mind) that the new figures are not because of "Power Creep";

Look at the Stormtrooper.

This is the figure that sets the baseline for what is a good deployment.

Things released later is designed with this "benchmark" in mind, adjusting powerlevels more or less to keep in touch with this Core game unit.

Han and Vader were never designed with the Stormtroopers in mind as a "benchmark".

So there is no "Power Creep" for new figures.

Just figures that were poorly designed in the first place.

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

So, this is the reason (in my mind) that the new figures are not because of "Power Creep";

Look at the Stormtrooper.

This is the figure that sets the baseline for what is a good deployment.

Things released later is designed with this "benchmark" in mind, adjusting powerlevels more or less to keep in touch with this Core game unit.

Han and Vader were never designed with the Stormtroopers in mind as a "benchmark".

So there is no "Power Creep" for new figures.

Just figures that were poorly designed in the first place.

From the look of these new packs, they weren't well designed at any point up until now, as figures keep getting cheaper and more powerful, ergo pushing out the old figures, forcing the player to buy the new figures to play competitively. I don't do that anymore after WEG, but I feel for those who do. That's how I define power creep. Maybe it isn't so, but it sure feels like it. I'd be interested in some test results on BT-1.

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

So, this is the reason (in my mind) that the new figures are not because of "Power Creep";

Look at the Stormtrooper.

This is the figure that sets the baseline for what is a good deployment.

Things released later is designed with this "benchmark" in mind, adjusting powerlevels more or less to keep in touch with this Core game unit.

Han and Vader were never designed with the Stormtroopers in mind as a "benchmark".

So there is no "Power Creep" for new figures.

Just figures that were poorly designed in the first place.

From the look of these new packs, they weren't well designed at any point up until now, as figures keep getting cheaper and more powerful, ergo pushing out the old figures, forcing the player to buy the new figures to play competitively. I don't do that anymore after WEG, but I feel for those who do. That's how I define power creep. Maybe it isn't so, but it sure feels like it. I'd be interested in some test results on BT-1.

I know it "feels" like power creep, but it's mathematically not (unless something is really way off that we're missing). Look at the example of Hera compared to Greedo above. Deployment cards can be deceptive as to how strong/not strong they are. And we have to remember that this game was originally, and always has been, geared towards campaign from day one. Skirmish has been getting fixed ever since, and it's in a very good place right now, at the expense of most of core/wave 1/2 chars. That sucks, it feels lame cuz those are some big name characters, but it should only get better and it's not truly power creep.

You know, I really don't get the reluctance for using the term "power creep." The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases, right? Can we all agree on that?

I get that some of the problem might be "over-costing" for the originals, and sure, that is a big part of it. If Vader were 10 points he would be used much more often.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

So, this is the reason (in my mind) that the new figures are not because of "Power Creep";

Look at the Stormtrooper.

This is the figure that sets the baseline for what is a good deployment.

Things released later is designed with this "benchmark" in mind, adjusting powerlevels more or less to keep in touch with this Core game unit.

Han and Vader were never designed with the Stormtroopers in mind as a "benchmark".

So there is no "Power Creep" for new figures.

Just figures that were poorly designed in the first place.

From the look of these new packs, they weren't well designed at any point up until now, as figures keep getting cheaper and more powerful, ergo pushing out the old figures, forcing the player to buy the new figures to play competitively. I don't do that anymore after WEG, but I feel for those who do. That's how I define power creep. Maybe it isn't so, but it sure feels like it. I'd be interested in some test results on BT-1.

Top 2 at worlds had Blaise, officers and lots of troopers for Imperials and 3P0, Gideon, and lots of troopers for rebels. Things aren't being "pushed out." If anything things need to be made even better so people will stop using the exact same lists from almost 2 years ago.

The early uniques are much less powerful than the current releases,

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep."

If the new stuff were consistently outclassing and outperforming everything old, that would be power creep. (Or, at least, most everything old). It's not that it is just uniques, it's that it's just old stuff that has always been bad. If the new things were noticeably better that the old stuff that was once considered good, THAT would be power creep.

Power creep would be when you have units that used to dominate tournaments that are now considered weak because the new stuff is so much better. If new stuff coming out is only as good as the old stuff that is good, that is actually good balance.

It is worth noting however, that FFGs release model of new upgrade cards and minimal errata, means that some level of power creep is unavoidable and inevitable. This release model does not enable units to be made worse, only better (apart from rare occasions like the sab/guard errata). This means that the overall power level of the game can only go up over time, i.e. power creep. If they are doing their job well, the overall power level of the game will creep up slowly and most units will remain balanced and viable, even the old ones, but the power level of the overall game will continue to creep up and there isn't much that can be done about that.

But if we cannot justify taking one figure (or figures) because they are not worth their cost when compared to newer figures, that is what EVERYONE means by "power creep." No one is complaining about Bossk being completely unusable. Everyone is complaining about Vader and Han. It is not coincidence that the unusable uniques were released in earlier expansions, it's systemic. So the early stuff is not as useful as the newer stuff, and without a fix they will never be seen again. That's... like... the definition of power creep. (Is it just the fact that it only applies to the uniques????)

It's not that I think you're wrong, but the issue is that most of those characters had no place on their release. Han was always a weak point. Vader could work because of his durability, but if he got stunned that's half your list that loses an action. Power creep, sure, but these are the prices that every unit should have followed at the start. I don't even blame the designers, though. They were likely concerned about the power levels of unique figures, and those aren't the only ones they got wrong. The game has changed hands and even since then they have become much better at designing the game. The downside of the improvements is that a lot of iconic characters were released too early, and we may or may not see an improved version on the table.

I'm hoping this means we will get some Rebels villains (Governor Pryce would be amazing as a female imperial officer body) now that they've started making the heroes from the series.

I'm hoping this means we will get some Rebels villains (Governor Pryce would be amazing as a female imperial officer body) now that they've started making the heroes from the series.

Well, we've had the inquisitor for a while now.

Right, just about everyone hit the nail on the head already.

It's "power creep" only if you consider units like Han, that are admittedly far to expensive.

Stormtroopers, officers, even Royal Guards, still very much hold their own, as well as several of the Rebel heroes. The game has been pretty stable since RtH, actually- personally, I find Leia and Dengar to both be very playable still.

Let's compare Hera to Greedo and an EProbe.

Hera and Greedo cost 4, EProbe costs 5, so all roughly the same cost.

Health

Hera: 7

Greedo: 7

EProbe: 7

Speed:

Hera: 4

Greedo: 5

EProbe: 4

Attack:

Hera: BGY

Greedo: GG

EProbe:BYY

Defense:

Hera: B

Greedo: W

EProbe:B

Built in Abilities:

Hera: None

Greedo: +1A, +1D

EProbe:Mobile

Surge Abilities

Hera: x1= +1D, x2= Pierce 2

Greedo:x1=Bleed, x1= +2D, x1= +3A

EProbe: x1= +2D, x1= Pierce 2, x1= Recover 2

Abilities

Hera: Call the Shots, Smooth Landing

Greedo: Slow on the Draw, Parting Shot

EProbe: Targeting Computer, Self Destruct

So, overall, I'd say that these are all pretty decent. Honestly, I think that considering surge abilities and likelehood of surges, the EProbe is well worth the extra point you'd spend to get it, but none of them seem particularly bad. Hera's abilities are decent depending specifically on who's she's paired with (Call the Shots can be devastating if used correctly), Greedo can be played smart (Slow on the Draw can be mitigated by attacking melee heroes) and he's one of the few units in the game that is pretty much guaranteed an attack before he's dead, and though many are reluctant to use it, the EProbe's self destruct can be incredibly powerful in a crowded hallway.

These are just examples, obviously, and I'm sure there are some units that are all but phased out, but that's bound to happen. There are a ton of units now, no one can play them all, it'd be ridiculous.

I'm hoping this means we will get some Rebels villains (Governor Pryce would be amazing as a female imperial officer body) now that they've started making the heroes from the series.

Well, we've had the inquisitor for a while now.

That's a fair point. I still want Pryce.

Actually, I think Han and Chewie were well designed cards, they just weren't designed point wise with Skirmish in mind. The same could be said o f several other figures. But Han and Chewie standout because if their points were adjusted, they would be totally playable and even really good. Han has one of the best attacks in the game ( look at his surges) Chewie is really tough and adds protection to those around him. Imagine Han at 7-8 pts and Chewie at 10pts they'd be animals

Some figures were just poorly developed or never designed for skirmish like Saska, Boba Fett or Dengar

All Boba needs is maybe lose a point and give him vehicle.