I think making it a free evade action would be a better errata. That way, blocking & obstacles become viable counters.

Fairly certain that free actions are not stopped by blocking or obstacles, only stress.

Ah yes, I believe you're right.

As primarily an Imperial player I think x7 is needed to have any Imperial success. I used to be able to fly tripple aces, even versus the dreaded tripple Jumpmasters, but with so much anti green die tech (Zuckuss, 4-Lom etc.), super red die tech (Rey, Han or Ghost with Finn, Bossk or Miranda with Homing etc.) and Dengaroo there isn't much option if you want a coinsistent Imperial list.

If anything needs a nerf (and I'm not sure it does) it is the following (in order):

1. Zuckuss needs a stress cap. He shouldn't work when you have accumulated X amount of stress (like Cpt. Yorr).

2. Emperor Palpatine needs to work at range 1-3. This makes skill at flying required to use him.

3. Manaroo needs to work at range 1-3. This makes skill at flying required to use her, especially together with Lone Wolf Dengar.

As primarily an Imperial player I think x7 is needed to have any Imperial success. I used to be able to fly tripple aces, even versus the dreaded tripple Jumpmasters, but with so much anti green die tech (Zuckuss, 4-Lom etc.), super red die tech (Rey, Han or Ghost with Finn, Bossk or Miranda with Homing etc.) and Dengaroo there isn't much option if you want a coinsistent Imperial list.

If anything needs a nerf (and I'm not sure it does) it is the following (in order):

1. Zuckuss needs a stress cap. He shouldn't work when you have accumulated X amount of stress (like Cpt. Yorr).

2. Emperor Palpatine needs to work at range 1-3. This makes skill at flying required to use him.

3. Manaroo needs to work at range 1-3. This makes skill at flying required to use her, especially together with Lone Wolf Dengar.

Good points. May i add:

4. The evade token from x7 should be a free action. Still makes the title awesome but allows more counters like stress.

Just something to consider, if the Evade token is a free Evade action instead, it gains a different set of advantages. You could block the move, but as has been noted, the action would still happen. If the x7 had PTL, it could PTL off the free action and get another action even when blocked. This action could be Barrel Roll, even, allowing a Defender to zoom right over an asteroid and still get 2 actions, or land on an asteroid and Barrel Roll off of it.

You could add a block of text clarifying, but it's not trivial.

Just something to consider, if the Evade token is a free Evade action instead, it gains a different set of advantages. You could block the move, but as has been noted, the action would still happen. If the x7 had PTL, it could PTL off the free action and get another action even when blocked. This action could be Barrel Roll, even, allowing a Defender to zoom right over an asteroid and still get 2 actions, or land on an asteroid and Barrel Roll off of it.

You could add a block of text clarifying, but it's not trivial.

Good points, in fact i hadnt considered that. But defenders arent very good at clearing stress the following turn so it's somewhat balanced (save for Ryad who is very good).

To me the only frustating part about x7 is that it's not interactive for the opponent, meaning he cant do anything to deny the token. It's close to balanced as it is, i prefer x7 by a landslide over the contracted scout meta that we had before. Another "easy" fix would be to just swap the point costs of the titles (D gets -2 or just move x7 to 0).

It's not about the offense of swarms, so your remark about /D or HLC is irrelevant.

Yeah Chief, you may uh.... may want to rethink who you say that to.

Yes, it's of course a typo.

Offense ON swarms, as in 'against' them. Should have been clear from the context as I'm talking about damage mitigation all this time.

Thanks for the correction, but not really what I meant. Judging by your post count you haven't been here long (either that or you just really really decided to lurk until now) so you may be unaware of this, but if Bio is known for only one thing, its his thorough knowledge of the Defender. He writes threads and articles about them, has been flying and advocating for their use for ages, and has starred in numerous podcasts to discuss them. Calling any input he has on them "irrelevant" is a good way to make people not take your opinion seriously. Just thought you should know that.

On a more general note, I honestly think it's funny that the Defender was panned as DOA for ages. The high cost was one problem (you pay nearly as much for a PS 1 ship that relied on green dice as you would pay for a pilot like Ten Numb). But now that it has received a title that, let's face it, makes the ship into the anti-starfighter terror it was always designed to be, people just complain about how strong it is. In all my games with, against, or observing Defenders both pre and post Imperial Veterans, their biggest weaknesses are the same ones that most Imperial Aces are: focused fire and bad luck. This game has been finding ways to exploit both of those since Soontir Fel and PtL hit the table. So yeah, to echo a statement expressed earlier in this thread, yeah sure your Corran/Dash netlist doesn't push enough damage through with its 2.5 attacks per round. Boo freakin' hoo. I've seen two Blue Squadron Bs with HLC and FCS rip an x7 to pieces in two rounds just by controlling their approach with a modicum of forethought (they both opened up at R3, then one moved aggressively to block and the other took his R1, focused, TLed attack) and that was only a portion of their list.

1. Outfly them. If you nail that approach defenders have a hard time recovering.

2. Mess with thier dice. Things like Zuckuss and Crackshot can annoy Defenders to no end.

3. Guaranteed damage. Bombs (backed with Sabine) are really good against them. Especially Connor Nets and Cluster Mines.

4. Homing Missiles. Plenty of people can carry these bad boys effectively (GSVs, KWings, TAPs, Chmiped Z-95s and Bossk isn't bad either). If you can back it up with Crackshot, even better.

But the gist of it is this. The tools are there. They have always been there. But they have to be used. If you don't use the tools at your disposal you won't beat much of anything.

It's not about the offense of swarms, so your remark about /D or HLC is irrelevant.

Yeah Chief, you may uh.... may want to rethink who you say that to.

Yes, it's of course a typo.

Offense ON swarms, as in 'against' them. Should have been clear from the context as I'm talking about damage mitigation all this time.

Thanks for the correction, but not really what I meant. Judging by your post count you haven't been here long (either that or you just really really decided to lurk until now) so you may be unaware of this, but if Bio is known for only one thing, its his thorough knowledge of the Defender. He writes threads and articles about them, has been flying and advocating for their use for ages, and has starred in numerous podcasts to discuss them. Calling any input he has on them "irrelevant" is a good way to make people not take your opinion seriously. Just thought you should know that.

On a more general note, I honestly think it's funny that the Defender was panned as DOA for ages. The high cost was one problem (you pay nearly as much for a PS 1 ship that relied on green dice as you would pay for a pilot like Ten Numb). But now that it has received a title that, let's face it, makes the ship into the anti-starfighter terror it was always designed to be, people just complain about how strong it is. In all my games with, against, or observing Defenders both pre and post Imperial Veterans, their biggest weaknesses are the same ones that most Imperial Aces are: focused fire and bad luck. This game has been finding ways to exploit both of those since Soontir Fel and PtL hit the table. So yeah, to echo a statement expressed earlier in this thread, yeah sure your Corran/Dash netlist doesn't push enough damage through with its 2.5 attacks per round. Boo freakin' hoo. I've seen two Blue Squadron Bs with HLC and FCS rip an x7 to pieces in two rounds just by controlling their approach with a modicum of forethought (they both opened up at R3, then one moved aggressively to block and the other took his R1, focused, TLed attack) and that was only a portion of their list.

It’s all in the approach man. And yes Bio really knows his Defenders (would never want to face him in a tournament if he used them). The moral of the story is this. When going against defenders you must do 1 or more of the folowing.

1. Outfly them. If you nail that approach defenders have a hard time recovering.

2. Mess with thier dice. Things like Zuckuss and Crackshot can annoy Defenders to no end.

3. Guaranteed damage. Bombs (backed with Sabine) are really good against them. Especially Connor Nets and Cluster Mines.

4. Homing Missiles. Plenty of people can carry these bad boys effectively (GSVs, KWings, TAPs, Chmiped Z-95s and Bossk isn't bad either). If you can back it up with Crackshot, even better.

But the gist of it is this. The tools are there. They have always been there. But they have to be used. If you don't use the tools at your disposal you won't beat much of anything.

These are arguments are rather weak because most of these points apply to anything (slightly) overpowered that has been in the game before. You could "outfly" contracted scouts or pre-nerf Phantoms but it doesnt mean they were balanced, right?

Just something to consider, if the Evade token is a free Evade action instead, it gains a different set of advantages. You could block the move, but as has been noted, the action would still happen. If the x7 had PTL, it could PTL off the free action and get another action even when blocked. This action could be Barrel Roll, even, allowing a Defender to zoom right over an asteroid and still get 2 actions, or land on an asteroid and Barrel Roll off of it.

You could add a block of text clarifying, but it's not trivial.

Good points, in fact i hadnt considered that. But defenders arent very good at clearing stress the following turn so it's somewhat balanced (save for Ryad who is very good).

To me the only frustating part about x7 is that it's not interactive for the opponent, meaning he cant do anything to deny the token. It's close to balanced as it is, i prefer x7 by a landslide over the contracted scout meta that we had before. Another "easy" fix would be to just swap the point costs of the titles (D gets -2 or just move x7 to 0).

It's not about the offense of swarms, so your remark about /D or HLC is irrelevant.

Yeah Chief, you may uh.... may want to rethink who you say that to.

Yes, it's of course a typo.

Offense ON swarms, as in 'against' them. Should have been clear from the context as I'm talking about damage mitigation all this time.

Thanks for the correction, but not really what I meant. Judging by your post count you haven't been here long (either that or you just really really decided to lurk until now) so you may be unaware of this, but if Bio is known for only one thing, its his thorough knowledge of the Defender. He writes threads and articles about them, has been flying and advocating for their use for ages, and has starred in numerous podcasts to discuss them. Calling any input he has on them "irrelevant" is a good way to make people not take your opinion seriously. Just thought you should know that.

On a more general note, I honestly think it's funny that the Defender was panned as DOA for ages. The high cost was one problem (you pay nearly as much for a PS 1 ship that relied on green dice as you would pay for a pilot like Ten Numb). But now that it has received a title that, let's face it, makes the ship into the anti-starfighter terror it was always designed to be, people just complain about how strong it is. In all my games with, against, or observing Defenders both pre and post Imperial Veterans, their biggest weaknesses are the same ones that most Imperial Aces are: focused fire and bad luck. This game has been finding ways to exploit both of those since Soontir Fel and PtL hit the table. So yeah, to echo a statement expressed earlier in this thread, yeah sure your Corran/Dash netlist doesn't push enough damage through with its 2.5 attacks per round. Boo freakin' hoo. I've seen two Blue Squadron Bs with HLC and FCS rip an x7 to pieces in two rounds just by controlling their approach with a modicum of forethought (they both opened up at R3, then one moved aggressively to block and the other took his R1, focused, TLed attack) and that was only a portion of their list.

It’s all in the approach man. And yes Bio really knows his Defenders (would never want to face him in a tournament if he used them). The moral of the story is this. When going against defenders you must do 1 or more of the folowing.

1. Outfly them. If you nail that approach defenders have a hard time recovering.

2. Mess with thier dice. Things like Zuckuss and Crackshot can annoy Defenders to no end.

3. Guaranteed damage. Bombs (backed with Sabine) are really good against them. Especially Connor Nets and Cluster Mines.

4. Homing Missiles. Plenty of people can carry these bad boys effectively (GSVs, KWings, TAPs, Chmiped Z-95s and Bossk isn't bad either). If you can back it up with Crackshot, even better.

But the gist of it is this. The tools are there. They have always been there. But they have to be used. If you don't use the tools at your disposal you won't beat much of anything.

These are arguments are rather weak because most of these points apply to anything (slightly) overpowered that has been in the game before. You could "outfly" contracted scouts or pre-nerf Phantoms but it doesnt mean they were balanced, right?

Just something to consider, if the Evade token is a free Evade action instead, it gains a different set of advantages. You could block the move, but as has been noted, the action would still happen. If the x7 had PTL, it could PTL off the free action and get another action even when blocked. This action could be Barrel Roll, even, allowing a Defender to zoom right over an asteroid and still get 2 actions, or land on an asteroid and Barrel Roll off of it.

You could add a block of text clarifying, but it's not trivial.

Good points, in fact i hadnt considered that. But defenders arent very good at clearing stress the following turn so it's somewhat balanced (save for Ryad who is very good).

To me the only frustating part about x7 is that it's not interactive for the opponent, meaning he cant do anything to deny the token. It's close to balanced as it is, i prefer x7 by a landslide over the contracted scout meta that we had before. Another "easy" fix would be to just swap the point costs of the titles (D gets -2 or just move x7 to 0).

Not being able to do anything about your opponent's effect has been around before: R2D2, Zuckuss, Crackshot, etc. Just because an opponent can't stop something from happening does not make it a bad effect. It might be annoying, but not bad or OP.

Defenders are fine. The whole Imperial arsenal is fine (save maybe the punisher). If 3 agility with a focus evade is the worst thing to deal with then this should be fairly easy to plan for. The only real problem with the defenders is the fact that they make 2 die attack a really big liability. People were beating pilots like Soontir fel before the defenders and he has even more modifiers than the defenders, we know it is possible.

Defenders are fine. The whole Imperial arsenal is fine (save maybe the punisher). If 3 agility with a focus evade is the worst thing to deal with then this should be fairly easy to plan for. The only real problem with the defenders is the fact that they make 2 die attack a really big liability. People were beating pilots like Soontir fel before the defenders and he has even more modifiers than the defenders, we know it is possible.

The thing that makes x7 not bother me all that much, in general, is that it doesn't have all that much offense to speak of. You have time to formulate a plan and set up favorable positions, trading a few hit points for position. That's not really an option against old trip-Scouts. One screw-up and you're out, although they can absolutely be outflown. Pre-nerf Phantoms had huge offense combined with maneuverability that made them almost impossible to outfly with any random list. If anything, anti-Defender gear in a squad is just more offense, which is good agaisnt any list.

Another thing to keep in mind when talking about the Defender and whether it needs to be nerfed is the skill needed to fly the list effectively. Defenders in general and the x7 in particular DO reward great flying, but they also punish bad flying. It is very easy to overextend your offense or have one of your three ships be in a bad position because you planned poorly, and they are still direly punished for being blocked. But a truly broken element is devastating without requiring an equivalent level of foresight and planning. This was the main reason that the Jumpmaster combo had to be adjusted. I believe this was Alex Davy speaking at the wave 10 Roundtable hosted by Team Covenant:

"What we were seeing was lists in the game that needed an adjustment. Primary among those was the Contracted Scout... the old Trip Chumps. Very very powerful list, not unbeatable by any means, but what we were seeing was games end very very quickly, we were seeing this alpha strike either delete a list off the board or cripple it such that the game was over very quickly one way or another. It was also pushing a lot of list archetypes completely out of the meta, so it was having this kind of diversity diminishing effect."

He goes on to say this:

"[Deadeye] was taking it outside of the fair rules of play, so to speak, because low Pilot Skill ships often struggle with ordnance because of the difficulty in acquiring that early target lock. But with that in play, the Jumpmasters were very very difficult to outfly, but fairly easy to fly well."

So when looking for things that require adjustment, it's clear that this vast discrepancy is what the designers are looking out for. I've spend the last few weeks watching dozens of videos from this past years store champs and regionals and though there is good representation with the x7, they certainly do not seem to be forcing the meta in such a way that requires a hard rules change. In fact, I have yet to find one where an x7 made it to the final table with the exception of (I believe it was) the Toronto tourney hosted by Northern Gaming. Even then, that player (who would go on to be Regional Champ) lost his Ryad in almost every match he played and only managed to clinch his games thanks to Palp and Inquisitor. However, he did have to beat something like 5 Dengaroo lists which all managed to make it to the final run. Having seen his matches, I think I can safely say that it wasn't the Defender that made him win but his player ability, as he managed to keep up a ridiculously high level of play even after playing for upwards of 12 hours.

Honestly, I've never flown against the list before, but if we're talking meta shaping and damage to the game, it seems more that Dengaroo is the list doing it, not the x7. (I say this based solely on the sheer number of times that list seems to come up in the matches I watch)

For me, I don't think the x7 title is egregious, just very forgiving. I think that having a very accessible, competitive squad is good for the game. When getting potential players into the game, it's nice that I can point out that one FO, one Imperial Veterans and one TIE Defender will get you a very reasonable list for pretty cheap. Not only that but you don't need to have played the game for a long time to do reasonably well with it. Ease of access is very important to the health of any game.

Additionally, there is a detriment to the x7 title. You're very predictable. When deciding on your maneuver, you can usually narrow the Defenders range of reasonable maneuvers to two or three. Find a happy medium between hedging against the worst for you and setting up for the best.

For me, I don't think the x7 title is egregious, just very forgiving. I think that having a very accessible, competitive squad is good for the game. When getting potential players into the game, it's nice that I can point out that one FO, one Imperial Veterans and one TIE Defender will get you a very reasonable list for pretty cheap. Not only that but you don't need to have played the game for a long time to do reasonably well with it. Ease of access is very important to the health of any game.

Additionally, there is a detriment to the x7 title. You're very predictable. When deciding on your maneuver, you can usually narrow the Defenders range of reasonable maneuvers to two or three. Find a happy medium between hedging against the worst for you and setting up for the best.

I really like that you mention accessability here. That was actually something else Davey said in the interview I quoted earlier when talking about triple jumps, mentioning that it was a squad that newer players literally might not have any skill or idea to deal with it, whereas the x7 Defenders are tough, but you are "still playing X-Wing" against them.

For me, I don't think the x7 title is egregious, just very forgiving. I think that having a very accessible, competitive squad is good for the game. When getting potential players into the game, it's nice that I can point out that one FO, one Imperial Veterans and one TIE Defender will get you a very reasonable list for pretty cheap. Not only that but you don't need to have played the game for a long time to do reasonably well with it. Ease of access is very important to the health of any game.

Additionally, there is a detriment to the x7 title. You're very predictable. When deciding on your maneuver, you can usually narrow the Defenders range of reasonable maneuvers to two or three. Find a happy medium between hedging against the worst for you and setting up for the best.

I really like that you mention accessability here. That was actually something else Davey said in the interview I quoted earlier when talking about triple jumps, mentioning that it was a squad that newer players literally might not have any skill or idea to deal with it, whereas the x7 Defenders are tough, but you are "still playing X-Wing" against them.

But is this even an argument? I dont think x7 is anything close to as unbalanced as triple scouts were. The game overall is in a pretty good place right now if you ask me, it's just that something always has to be on top. And for now that is x7, therefore the discussions.

For me, I don't think the x7 title is egregious, just very forgiving. I think that having a very accessible, competitive squad is good for the game. When getting potential players into the game, it's nice that I can point out that one FO, one Imperial Veterans and one TIE Defender will get you a very reasonable list for pretty cheap. Not only that but you don't need to have played the game for a long time to do reasonably well with it. Ease of access is very important to the health of any game.

Additionally, there is a detriment to the x7 title. You're very predictable. When deciding on your maneuver, you can usually narrow the Defenders range of reasonable maneuvers to two or three. Find a happy medium between hedging against the worst for you and setting up for the best.

I really like that you mention accessability here. That was actually something else Davey said in the interview I quoted earlier when talking about triple jumps, mentioning that it was a squad that newer players literally might not have any skill or idea to deal with it, whereas the x7 Defenders are tough, but you are "still playing X-Wing" against them.

But is this even an argument? I dont think x7 is anything close to as unbalanced as triple scouts were. The game overall is in a pretty good place right now if you ask me, it's just that something always has to be on top. And for now that is x7, therefore the discussions.

That's just it, they aren't "on top". They do well, but through interviews with the designers and the videos I've seen, they tend to get cut out of the final tables, usually somewhere between the top 16 and top 8. So they do well and have a good deal of representation, they just aren't the dominant build. And that's sort of the point. It shouldn't be an argument. They are not broken. They're good. But so are a great many other things. And it's because of the fact that they're nowhere near the power skew of the Triple Jumps that they do not need any sort of reworking.

There is a reason why defenders don't make finals and only figure top 16 and top 8, it because every list is designed to beat defenders or at least stand a chance against them.

I don't think x-7 defenders are broken but they are suppressing a lot of builds most notably the my skillful lists in the game "swarms". They may not be as bad as Jumpmasters but they are warping the game.

The changes i would make if i was the designers is switch the cost x-7 to 0 and d to -2.

Introduce a mechanic where stress of 3 or more caused damage

While I'm all for x7 going to 0 points, I would say be careful what you wish for in bringing down Tie/D to -2 points. If such a change was made I don't think it would be long before we were all complaining about Tie/Ds being everywhere.

I think Tie/D is in a pretty comfortable spot. I think that Defenders should probably cost 2 less points, so it seems reasonable that Tie/D pays 2 points on top of the cost of the cannon to be able to make multiple attacks. Tie/D is costed right. The reason it doesn't see play isn't because it's bad, it's because its direct competition is better than it reasonably should be.

While I'm all for x7 going to 0 points, I would say be careful what you wish for in bringing down Tie/D to -2 points. If such a change was made I don't think it would be long before we were all complaining about Tie/Ds being everywhere.

I think Tie/D is in a pretty comfortable spot. I think that Defenders should probably cost 2 less points, so it seems reasonable that Tie/D pays 2 points on top of the cost of the cannon to be able to make multiple attacks. Tie/D is costed right. The reason it doesn't see play isn't because it's bad, it's because its direct competition is better than it reasonably should be.

You may well be right, i guess that would have to be play tested to find out.

I just think the x7 title is better than D as you still have to buy a secondary weapon.

I think i will go back to building defender lists only this time with the D title

It makes me sad to hear the call for a nerf of the X7 because the X7 title gives the TIE Defender precisely what it needed to be competitive. Before the X7 title the Defender was considered 2 points too expensive for what it did and it needed some way to get an evade token (or some kind of similar ability) so it could survive on the table a little longer. Now it has those things and actually sees competitive play. Success!

As far as the state of the meta I cannot complain. Being around in the days of Wave 5 the "pancake ace" meta was the worst I have ever seen. The X7 is as much a part of the meta as it is a response to the meta. If the X7 title was not around Imperial players would be sticking to dodgy aces like Interceptors and TIE Adv. Prototypes as they have for a very long time. However, there are many things flying around now that crushes them without a chance (Sabine bombs, Zuckuss, Black Market Slicing Tools, Homing missiles, Vader crew to name a few). This would manifest itself as the Empire seeing far fewer tables than Rebels or Scum. The X7 Defender gives the Empire something it has never had before competitively which is the ability to actually fly towards the enemy head on and not explode and that to me opens the Empire's list building options more. Anything that does that has my full support.

The thing that makes x7 not bother me all that much, in general, is that it doesn't have all that much offense to speak of. You have time to formulate a plan and set up favorable positions, trading a few hit points for position. That's not really an option against old trip-Scouts. One screw-up and you're out, although they can absolutely be outflown. Pre-nerf Phantoms had huge offense combined with maneuverability that made them almost impossible to outfly with any random list. If anything, anti-Defender gear in a squad is just more offense, which is good agaisnt any list.

While I agree, the 'more offense' requirement is pretty much what's pushing the 2-attack craft away.

Hence my musings that if you were going to do anything, tying the Defenders extra token to its ability to perform actions would at least allow 5-6 ship builds to be able to counterplay by blocking, with massed fire to do the best they can against the 6HP while it's vulnerable.

The thing that makes x7 not bother me all that much, in general, is that it doesn't have all that much offense to speak of. You have time to formulate a plan and set up favorable positions, trading a few hit points for position. That's not really an option against old trip-Scouts. One screw-up and you're out, although they can absolutely be outflown. Pre-nerf Phantoms had huge offense combined with maneuverability that made them almost impossible to outfly with any random list. If anything, anti-Defender gear in a squad is just more offense, which is good agaisnt any list.

While I agree, the 'more offense' requirement is pretty much what's pushing the 2-attack craft away.

Hence my musings that if you were going to do anything, tying the Defenders extra token to its ability to perform actions would at least allow 5-6 ship builds to be able to counterplay by blocking, with massed fire to do the best they can against the 6HP while it's vulnerable.

more offense has been a thing since the phantom

Defenders are nothing new, theyre not even as bad inthat regard as palp aces