So just coming up with an idea (that might make LRS worth something) and here are some thoughts.

Long Range Concussion Missiles

slot <Missile> points 3

Firepower 3 Range 3

Attack [Target Lock] Spend your target lock and discard this card to make this attack. You can attack defenders outside of range 3 as if they were at range 3 inside your firing arc. If defender is outside of range 3 defender doubles his agility value.

So a long range attack that can only fire outside of arc when beyond range 3. As for autothrusters since the attack is treated as range 3 in arc autothrusters and other range 3 effects still trigger. With the exception of the range 3 green die bonus but the doubile agility makes up for that.

Long Range Proton Torpedo .

slot<Torpedo> Points 4

Action . Place a Proton Torpedo token within range 3 inside your firing arc facing away from you.

Proton torpedo token. At the end of the combat phase you may discard this token to make one Firepower 3 attack at a ship inside range 1 of the token's firing arc. During the end phase this token moves straight the distance of the range 1 ruler.

So taking a que from the ion cannon/turbolaser tokens in the GR-75 transport. Here is an idea of simply putting a torpedo and watch it travel across the table. Not an instant hit like the missile (for some reason I always imagined torpedoes moving slower than missiles. But still it can clear the way fro you. Since it is its own token it won't have focus or TL tokens of its own. Still certain abilities (Emperor Palpatine) could effect this.

Thoughts, ideas?

darn double post. This is the correct thread.

Well, technically Autothrusters is triggering for being "beyond range 2" and not specifically being in Range 3. But measuring firing arc out beyond that limit will be tricky without the extended range ruler from Epic ships. To help combat that, might I suggest changing the wording to reflect the use of the extended range ruler? For instance, the attack range on the missile can be something like 3-5 or 3-4. I would also say something like "the defender may roll one additional defense die" instead of doubling their agility. You get a less variable effect that way.

edit: by using the larger range ruler, you also cut down on the wordiness of the card text, as all that stipulation is no longer needed.

darn double post. This is the correct thread.

well good thing i started typing in the correct one then...

I kind of like the idea of any ordnance going out beyond R3, and that it takes more than one round to get there. What i'd like would be to use the Black Armada dice for ordnance though, with the ability to land a Hit/Crit on one face pretty brutal for it, which a missile/torp hitting a ship should be.

So with my suggestions, the card would simply read like this:

Range: 3-5

Attack: [target lock] Spend your target lock and discard this card to use this attack.

If the defender is beyond range 3, they may roll one additional defense die.

Well, technically Autothrusters is triggering for being "beyond range 2" and not specifically being in Range 3. But measuring firing arc out beyond that limit will be tricky without the extended range ruler from Epic ships. To help combat that, might I suggest changing the wording to reflect the use of the extended range ruler? For instance, the attack range on the missile can be something like 3-5 or 3-4. I would also say something like "the defender may roll one additional defense die" instead of doubling their agility. You get a less variable effect that way.

Well I think by principles of linear mathematics outside of range 3 counts as beyond range 2. However again for the missiles the wording states outside of range 3 which means it doesn't have to be inside any firing arc . Just have to spend the Target Lock token and be outside range 3. If it is inside range 3 then it does have to be inside arc however it doesn't give the double defender agility in that case. So for this card there are two conditions situations in which this card can be used as long as there is a target lock.

1. Range 3 AND inside arc (does not give defender any agility bonus)
2. Outside of range 3 (does not matter if it is in arc or not but defender gets double agility bonus.)

So as for why not using the epic range 5 range ruler is again for this to be possibly used in standard play. Sort of like an opening volley but easily dodged. As for large ships they could pop countermeasures or Expert Handling to discard target lock tokens.

Not a fan of the 1st missile. I see too many problems determining arc at extended range and it feel useless against agi 3 ships while OP against agi 0 or 1 ships. Plus the chances of you not being able to line up a shot are virtually nil which takes away the maneuvering aspect of the game and makes it all about pure dice rolling.

By contrast I conceptually like the torpedo idea a lot. I view it sort of like a moving bomb token. I think you'd need to revise it a bit, don't place the torp rather have it fire straight ahead of the ship to make it more difficult to use since the range 1 homing bit at the end is already sufficient guidance. Also I'd put a minimum range on it by making it unable to detonate the first turn to encourage long range use. People can still fly around it and it allows you to do remote area denial. Could definitely see something like this actually becoming a thing.

I like the idea of a moving token but it should no longer be under the control of the player.

Fire and Forget Proximity Torpedo

Slot whatever, Points TBD pending balance testing

Action : Place a Proximity Torpedo token within range 1-2 inside your firing arc facing away from you.

A torpedo token is exactly like a bomb token except for having nubs on both front and back.

At the end of each activation phase, move the Proximity Torpedo one forward using the nubs on the torpedo token. If a Proximity Torpedo is within range 1 of any ship at any time, it immediately detonates causing 3 red dice worth of damage. The owning player chooses which ship if there are more than one ship within range 1.

Should a Proximity Torpedo overlap an obstacle, the obstacle is destroyed and remove both the torpedo and obstacle tokens.

Well, technically Autothrusters is triggering for being "beyond range 2" and not specifically being in Range 3. But measuring firing arc out beyond that limit will be tricky without the extended range ruler from Epic ships. To help combat that, might I suggest changing the wording to reflect the use of the extended range ruler? For instance, the attack range on the missile can be something like 3-5 or 3-4. I would also say something like "the defender may roll one additional defense die" instead of doubling their agility. You get a less variable effect that way.

Well I think by principles of linear mathematics outside of range 3 counts as beyond range 2. However again for the missiles the wording states outside of range 3 which means it doesn't have to be inside any firing arc . Just have to spend the Target Lock token and be outside range 3. If it is inside range 3 then it does have to be inside arc however it doesn't give the double defender agility in that case. So for this card there are two conditions situations in which this card can be used as long as there is a target lock.

1. Range 3 AND inside arc (does not give defender any agility bonus)
2. Outside of range 3 (does not matter if it is in arc or not but defender gets double agility bonus.)

So as for why not using the epic range 5 range ruler is again for this to be possibly used in standard play. Sort of like an opening volley but easily dodged. As for large ships they could pop countermeasures or Expert Handling to discard target lock tokens.

If what you're saying is that you basically want a missile that can fire anywhere on the board, I think that's not a good idea because it offers little to no counterplay options. You can't plan an approach around that, you can't easily measure exact line of effect for obstructions (lets see someone try to measure from one corner to an opposed corner, for instance, and not be affected heavily by margin of error) and pretty much the only ship that can use this at all is one that can take LRS. And, since the defender is getting a hefty bonus for most of the shots you're liable to make, it actually makes it less effective than say, using LRS with Homing Missiles, and getting a focus on the turn you come into range.

Well, technically Autothrusters is triggering for being "beyond range 2" and not specifically being in Range 3. But measuring firing arc out beyond that limit will be tricky without the extended range ruler from Epic ships. To help combat that, might I suggest changing the wording to reflect the use of the extended range ruler? For instance, the attack range on the missile can be something like 3-5 or 3-4. I would also say something like "the defender may roll one additional defense die" instead of doubling their agility. You get a less variable effect that way.

Well I think by principles of linear mathematics outside of range 3 counts as beyond range 2. However again for the missiles the wording states outside of range 3 which means it doesn't have to be inside any firing arc . Just have to spend the Target Lock token and be outside range 3. If it is inside range 3 then it does have to be inside arc however it doesn't give the double defender agility in that case. So for this card there are two conditions situations in which this card can be used as long as there is a target lock.

1. Range 3 AND inside arc (does not give defender any agility bonus)
2. Outside of range 3 (does not matter if it is in arc or not but defender gets double agility bonus.)

So as for why not using the epic range 5 range ruler is again for this to be possibly used in standard play. Sort of like an opening volley but easily dodged. As for large ships they could pop countermeasures or Expert Handling to discard target lock tokens.

If what you're saying is that you basically want a missile that can fire anywhere on the board, I think that's not a good idea because it offers little to no counterplay options. You can't plan an approach around that, you can't easily measure exact line of effect for obstructions (lets see someone try to measure from one corner to an opposed corner, for instance, and not be affected heavily by margin of error) and pretty much the only ship that can use this at all is one that can take LRS. And, since the defender is getting a hefty bonus for most of the shots you're liable to make, it actually makes it less effective than say, using LRS with Homing Missiles, and getting a focus on the turn you come into range.

Well you can't fire it anywhere on the board. Outside of arc in range 3 as well as range 1 and 2 will be out of range as in being in too close. Also you will need a target lock first so either you get a target lock then run away or you build for it with list like Jendon w/title or K-wing w/LRS. There are counterplay options, agility 3, also Counter Measures or Expert Handling that can shake off Target Locks. Lets not forget about Biggs. You are right it might not be the meta defining combo but just exploring some options.

Not a fan of the 1st missile. I see too many problems determining arc at extended range and it feel useless against agi 3 ships while OP against agi 0 or 1 ships. Plus the chances of you not being able to line up a shot are virtually nil which takes away the maneuvering aspect of the game and makes it all about pure dice rolling.

By contrast I conceptually like the torpedo idea a lot. I view it sort of like a moving bomb token. I think you'd need to revise it a bit, don't place the torp rather have it fire straight ahead of the ship to make it more difficult to use since the range 1 homing bit at the end is already sufficient guidance. Also I'd put a minimum range on it by making it unable to detonate the first turn to encourage long range use. People can still fly around it and it allows you to do remote area denial. Could definitely see something like this actually becoming a thing.

Again with the first missile when it is outside of range 3 as in standard there is no arc. So it is treated as inside arc at range 3 but doubles the defenders agility. When inside range 3 arc matters. The only thing that ting be difficult to determine is if the shot is obstructed or not. As for ships with 0-1 agility they usually have more than 3 health so they can withstand a hit. The question of balance would be how much of a jendon LRS Alpha strike can you make with this? At 3 dice damage per hit not much but then again maybe I should up the point cost to 3 or 4 to make sure that never becomes the case.

There was a mission that Beast of War created that was set on the other side of Endor right after the fleet battle. The Rebels had to blast a shield generator of an imperial base so that orbital bombardment could hit it. There were AT-AT's, AT-ST's, trees, and turrets. They changed the rules for Advanced Proton Torpedo so that it was R2-5. I thought it was a really interesting thing to do. If they redid Torpedoes, I think that would be the thing that would set them apart from Missiles. Make them longer range.

I think there could be a neat mechanic for it. I'm not quite sure if what you recommend is the way to go or another way. It wouldn't work for regular 100/6 that much, but it would be huge for Epic and/or scenarios.

Had a similar discussion a long while back - increasing the range of certain (Concussion) missiles and (Proton) torpedoes to range 2-5. At the time it was shot down due to limited ways to obtain Target Locks at long range (now changed with LRS and a couple of other upgrades) and the range 5 ruler only being available with Epic ships.

Thematically it makes sense - Missiles and Torps had a longer effective range in the PC games. High agility ships would still be well protected with Autothrusters, but it could be devastating against low agility ships.

Might be a nice buff to LRS-capable ships.

Advanced Long Range Sensors

TIE Punisher only

You may aquire target locks beyond range 3.

When attacking a target beyond range 3 with an equipped <torpedo> or <missile>, treat the range of the attack as 3.

You may not equip not modifications with a cost higher than 1.

System slot

I admit that I kind of like the idea of just expanding Torpedoes. People have always asked what the difference between them were. This would definitely split them off.

Had a similar discussion a long while back - increasing the range of certain (Concussion) missiles and (Proton) torpedoes to range 2-5. At the time it was shot down due to limited ways to obtain Target Locks at long range (now changed with LRS and a couple of other upgrades) and the range 5 ruler only being available with Epic ships.

Thematically it makes sense - Missiles and Torps had a longer effective range in the PC games. High agility ships would still be well protected with Autothrusters, but it could be devastating against low agility ships.

Might be a nice buff to LRS-capable ships.

The problem with Range 4 and 5 for 1 it is not in standard and 2 the only way to get those range 4 and 5 template is from an epic ship. One of the reasons why I was keeping it a range 3 and then just add extra rules so anything beyond range 3 could be attacked without worrying about firing arcs.

If there was a range 4 or 5 missile or torpedo it would have to come with an epic ship in order to make range 4 and 5 legal for standard. Now maybe the Star Viper or Kihraxz could be in the Corvette scale huge ship for scum and with that ship could be a missile or torpedo that goes up to range 5 (as the range template would be with the upgrade card). I could see that while keeping the integrity of X-wings expansion product model. But other than that a range 4-5 secondary weapon will not be released outside of a huge ship expansion.

Boost-Assisted Ordnance Tubes

Modification

Increase each listed range for all equipped Missile or Torpedo secondary weapons by 1.

Advanced Concussion Missiles move to R3, Advanced Proton Torpedoes and Proton Rockets become R2, Concussion MIssiles and the like become R3-4, and so on.

If there are seeker missiles or torps that can attack anything out of arc beyond range 3 by spending a target lock, then you've got an interesting one-time turret-like effect that might make them more competitive. So something like:

Seeker Missiles / Torpedoes

Cost: 3

Damage: 3

Range: 4+

Attack (Target Lock): Spend your target lock and discard this card to make this attack at Range 4 or beyond (even if the ship is outside your firing arc).

I like the Idea of homing missles moving across the board following the target each round. Maybe they move at speed two directly towards the target each round. This is what Jango Fetts homing middle does in episode two. It follows Obi-wan. I think the old FASA game Silent Death had missle/torp mechanics like that.

If there are seeker missiles or torps that can attack anything out of arc beyond range 3 by spending a target lock, then you've got an interesting one-time turret-like effect that might make them more competitive. So something like:

Seeker Missiles / Torpedoes

Cost: 3

Damage: 3

Range: 4+

Attack (Target Lock): Spend your target lock and discard this card to make this attack at Range 4 or beyond (even if the ship is outside your firing arc).

Again as I said, currently there is no range 4 (or range 5) in standard. Anything outside of range 3 is simply outside range 3.

Now in order for range 4 or 5 to be added into standard first there needs to be a secondary weapon a small or large ship could equip, and two it also has to be in a huge ship expansion pack so as to have the range 5 template in the same expansion as the secondary weapon. As of now and including the C-roc that is not likely.

So when trying to write long range concussion misses for standard I just presume range 3 is the furthest it can go and anything beyond that has no firing arc to be concerned with . Thus said range 4 has no arc and frankly does not exist in standard. Range 3 does so any ship in range 3 will have to be in arc (and range 1-2 is outside (or inside the minimum) of the firing range of the missile.

I don't know why folks are stuck on a range 4 (or 5) weapon in standard?

I have a half-complete design for a space dogfighting game that I've been working on intermittently. It has conservation of momentum so missiles are tracked as temporary combatants with a few rounds worth of fuel. They move in a separate step of the movement phase with a very high delta vee and if they can intersect their target they hit, no rolling required. Flak weapons can try to shoot them down.

There is room in a large ship expansion, or special set like veterans, to stash a 4/5 range ruler, no?

Advanced Long Range Sensors

TIE Punisher only

You may aquire target locks beyond range 3.

When attacking a target beyond range 3 with an equipped <torpedo> or <missile>, treat the range of the attack as 3.

You may not equip not modifications with a cost higher than 1.

System slot

Cannot equip Lightweight frame if phrased this way, intentionally?

I like the Idea of homing missles moving across the board following the target each round. Maybe they move at speed two directly towards the target each round. This is what Jango Fetts homing middle does in episode two. It follows Obi-wan. I think the old FASA game Silent Death had missle/torp mechanics like that.

Torpedoes travelling over several rounds is nice thematically, but probably too bloated for 100/6 matches. For casual, missions or epic, feasible. Although it increases game length, and could be a major headache if you have several torpedoes following targets simultaneously.

Do they travel infinitely, without ever running out of fuel?

Is the defender allowed to forfeit the normal attack, instead attacking the torpedoe itself (3-4 green dice? 1 hull?).

I was about to post something that was about 95% the same as this.

I like the idea of a moving token but it should no longer be under the control of the player.

Fire and Forget Proximity Torpedo

Slot whatever, Points TBD pending balance testing

Action : Place a Proximity Torpedo token within range 1-2 inside your firing arc facing away from you.

A torpedo token is exactly like a bomb token except for having nubs on both front and back.

At the end of each activation phase, move the Proximity Torpedo one forward using the nubs on the torpedo token. If a Proximity Torpedo is within range 1 of any ship at any time, it immediately detonates causing 3 red dice worth of damage. The owning player chooses which ship if there are more than one ship within range 1.

Should a Proximity Torpedo overlap an obstacle, the obstacle is destroyed and remove both the torpedo and obstacle tokens.

With a variation being similar to this.

I like the Idea of homing missles moving across the board following the target each round. Maybe they move at speed two directly towards the target each round. This is what Jango Fetts homing middle does in episode two. It follows Obi-wan. I think the old FASA game Silent Death had missle/torp mechanics like that.

The thing is, we do not want the board to get too cluttered or there to be too many confusing mechanics to have to deal with, so we need a more simple way to do this.

How about a modification that says when you fire a missile or torpedo, if the attack misses, you place a tracking token next to the target ship. At the beginning of the combat phase, after all other start of combat phase triggers but before any ships activate, any ship with a tracking token must defend against the same attack as the one that missed the previous round. Then remove all tracking tokens.

It simulates a smart weapon that continues to track its target but eventually runs out of fuel or self destructs.