Ok, there have been many threads on Squadrons and many people offering anecdotal stories to say how Squadrons are too powerful. Here is my Anecdotal story using the World's final game as an example.

Now I will start by saying ignored Squadrons will absolutely wreck your day. They are as solid of a choice as taking an ISD, which I have no issue with because Squadrons are as much apart of Star Wars as the ISD. But if you play with Squadrons in mind they can absolutely be mitigated to an extent. In our local CC Campaign the last two games had players that brought Squadron oriented lists and both of them Lost, one of them baddy. Now the opponent's did bring Squadrons but not as many and were more for defensive screening. And the screens Worked fantastically. Even the MSU Squadron heavy list with Sato got tabled by someone who brought an ISD and Interdictor who didn't lose a single ship. (They were damaged but they survived till the end of the game.) But the Imperial player did play a smart well thought out game and knew how to defend his ships against a very aggressive player that was my teammates. (Well fought Game though. Good job to the both of you.)

My game was different as I was facing 6 Firesprays and a Raider with Flechett Torpedoes. It was a game of maneuvering and defensive posturing which I was able to force him into a position where he had to attack or I would have overran him. Unfortunately for him I was ready for the assault and my counter strike earned me enough points to win the game. (Fantastic game by the way Chris. Very well played.)

Now for my reason of bringing up Worlds. I watched game closely and noticed something, yes the winner brought Lots of Y-Wings but he flew them in a defensive held back way and he waited for his opponent to attack, which he did by flying his AF Mark II right up into the bomber screen. The Squadrons did not win the game, the defensive slow thought out strategy of the winner won the game. He only had to deal with one ship at a time and was able to tear apart his opponent's fleet not because his Squadrons overpowered his opponent but because his opponent underestimated the power of a bomber screen when he charged in to get the drop.

It was not the Squadrons that won the game, it was well thought out Tactics and patience for the right moment.

Now I have watched a lot of games and this has been a recurring theme, players that overestimate their own power and charge in expecting to out muscle their opponent tend to lose to more patient players that keep their ships and squadrons in formation ready on the defense. Now players that are aggressive can absolutely win games when they can caught a lone ship off guard and that can be destroyed fast in a swift attack but smart players won't leave their fleet open like that.

So I purpose that many of the threads complaining about Squadrons are from players that have been outplayed by smart players that fly their fleet in formation and wait for their opportunity to attack instead of rushing forward in an all out assault.

Now if you want to give anecdotal stories make sure to tell the whole story. Did you over extend yourself and fly in without a fighter screen? Were you in formation? Or did you expect a lone ISD to weather all damage thrown at it? The game has evolved into the final form that will be with us for a long time it it is one where you need the elements of your fleet to work together, you can not expect ships to do everything on their own. And absolutely expect your opponent to bring Squadrons but don't rush in to get them. Play the maneuvering game, don't fly straight in, not even ISD's should do that now. Like chess you can not focus on one piece and you can not always be on the attack. That's not how the game works and nor should it work that way.

Embrace all the elements of the game and your enjoyment will increase as will your skills. So let's spend less time on how we should change the rules to fit your game and work on discussing how to change your game to fit the rules. Let's talk Strategy!

When I watched the final, the moment that Justin charged forward with his AF, I knew he was in for a bad day. I think he could have made more of a game if he would have slowed down and allowed his aces to do more work before the AF got too close. Also, charging forward allowed JJ's Admonition to flank him easier and was destroyed from behind.

When I watched the final, the moment that Justin charged forward with his AF, I knew he was in for a bad day. I think he could have made more of a game if he would have slowed down and allowed his aces to do more work before the AF got too close. Also, charging forward allowed JJ's Admonition to flank him easier and was destroyed from behind.

When I watched the final, the moment that Justin charged forward with his AF, I knew he was in for a bad day. I think he could have made more of a game if he would have slowed down and allowed his aces to do more work before the AF got too close. Also, charging forward allowed JJ's Admonition to flank him easier and was destroyed from behind.

But this just reinforces the OP's point: tactics are currently carrying the day in this game, not just specific game elements.

There's a lot of games out there where you can make an auto-win during the team building phase. Armada isn't one of those games.

When I watched the final, the moment that Justin charged forward with his AF, I knew he was in for a bad day. I think he could have made more of a game if he would have slowed down and allowed his aces to do more work before the AF got too close. Also, charging forward allowed JJ's Admonition to flank him easier and was destroyed from behind.

I agree with this. And so did JJ's expression when it happened. Dude lit up light someone had just handed him the win...

But this just reinforces the OP's point: tactics are currently carrying the day in this game, not just specific game elements.

There's a lot of games out there where you can make an auto-win during the team building phase. Armada isn't one of those games.

I also have been saying this since the start, Fighters are just a powerful weapon the ships bring to a fight)(so many players just charge in fasted ships hit first) your force has to work as a unit, the player that has the most fire power at the point of contact will most likely win. your trying to get all your ships in range of ONE of your opponents ships, kill it and move on to the next, most likely your opponent will do that for you trying to save the first ship.

Its a basic maneuver warfare tactic and it works in most well made games and in real war.

This book might be worth reading if you really want to get better at wargames like SW,A, "The art of Maneuver:Maneuver warfare theory and airland battle" well worth the time to read it.

For those of us greenhorns struggling with the game, it would be great to see some tactics threads here. Maybe the experienced players could share some of their hard-earned experience.

Would be a mite bit better than all the vitrol/troll posts we're seeing as of late.

For those of us greenhorns struggling with the game, it would be great to see some tactics threads here. Maybe the experienced players could share some of their hard-earned experience.

Would be a mite bit better than all the vitrol/troll posts we're seeing as of late.

Way, way back in the day, there were some really excellent discussions regarding activation order, threat range, and threat level. With BCC and Nora around, the threat level of bombers has quite simply gone through the roof: when a y-wing can reroll twice and score 3 damage on its own, that's some serious swing!

This is a wonderful idea and I'm afraid many of us neglect posting more on it because those old discussions were so wonderful- unfortunately, my search fu is a little rusty at the moment, as I couldn't begin to replicate those threads as they also had tons of diagrams.

To start off, I think one of the greatest advantages of fighters is that all of them are demolisher! Meaning, all of them can move then fire, which given the mechanics of our beloved game, is HUGE: it makes your threat range gargantuan with even a speed 3 fighter. FCT's just make setting these guys up even easier.

As you think about a game turn, you've got to put your "chess" hat on- where am I moving into? What will be able to shoot it if I do? What WON'T be able to shoot at me if I do? Where are the deadly arcs *likely* to be next turn, and will I have activation advantage to scoot before they shoot? Or is there another fork I can set up with my own threat range to penalize that activation?

When it comes to fighters, the game really starts on deployment. Your fighters aren't infinitely fast: they also need to be both in command range of ships (assuming non-rogues here) as well as far out enough in front to be able to threaten/hit a target. Knowing where the enemy is going to go, OR knowing where you don't want the enemy to go will largely determine your deployment. Think about which turn you want the engagement to happen on: sometimes creeping out too much just opens you up to a counter-attack from dedicated interceptors. It can kind of become a game of chicken: you don't want to just throw away your fighters into a sub-optimal position, but if your opponent makes your play of fighters so skittish that they haven't done anything by turn 5, they may as well have been handed over before the game started. It call comes down to timing, maneuvering, and psychology- timing because first strike and setting the place of engagement is so important for local superiority, maneuvering because of arcs and hull zones you want to hit/avoid, and psychology because those dials can really swing an engagement- if you can set the tempo for all of those, i.e., hitting firstest with the mostest and the weakest when they don't expect it, you're going to come out on top!

*Edit*- I didn't realize the forum search defaulted to only a year! Here's one I made that's not nearly as useful as the other two posted below:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191825-tactics-setup-for-your-attack-run-afmkii/?hl=bombing

unfortunately, my search fu is a little rusty at the moment,

I got skillz, theyre electrifying

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202665-lets-analyse-threat-range/

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/218277-your-tactical-hand-or-the-importance-of-fleet-building/

For those of us greenhorns struggling with the game, it would be great to see some tactics threads here. Maybe the experienced players could share some of their hard-earned experience.

Would be a mite bit better than all the vitrol/troll posts we're seeing as of late.

FFG forums unfortunately appear to be lacking in this kind of forum discussions and it has been something I have been talking about on this forum and on the Off Topic Forum too. I would start one myself but I am not an expert in Armada yet. I took about a year off from gaming to take care of "life" that unfortunately through me for a loop. Now I can once again play again and get my mind into it I found that I can still absolutely play but my skills are rusty. I am having to take it slow and play more defensively than I have in the past to squeeze out a victory. Still not sure if that is because that is how the game has progressed or if it is because my skills are not up to par yet. I'm guessing it's my skills need help first. So I have been hoping beyond hope a more experienced player with better Math skills (I'm good at math but some of you guys make my statistics skills look elementary) would take up the mantle and I could just pipe in with more detailed points.

Still though if someone wants to try to take that charge I would support that thread. One for the Imperials and one for the Rebels.

Many of the other games I've played some experienced player would start a "Boot Camp" sort of thread for beginners to read that usually gave basics for movement, list structure and basic combinations of units. They avoided Meta list building and focused on what new players needed to keep in mind.

FFG forums unfortunately appear to be lacking in this kind of forum discussions and it has been something I have been talking about on this forum and on the Off Topic Forum too. I would start one myself but I am not an expert in Armada yet. I took about a year off from gaming to take care of "life" that unfortunately through me for a loop. Now I can once again play again and get my mind into it I found that I can still absolutely play but my skills are rusty.

The problem I've found, trying to put my thoughts to it, is basically, even when you're trying to deal with general concepts, each wave that has been released has basically been a big ol' reset button to even the most basic strategy and tactics...

That's been the single biggest barrier for me, at the very least...

Many of the other games I've played some experienced player would start a "Boot Camp" sort of thread for beginners to read that usually gave basics for movement, list structure and basic combinations of units. They avoided Meta list building and focused on what new players needed to keep in mind.

FFG forums unfortunately appear to be lacking in this kind of forum discussions and it has been something I have been talking about on this forum and on the Off Topic Forum too. I would start one myself but I am not an expert in Armada yet. I took about a year off from gaming to take care of "life" that unfortunately through me for a loop. Now I can once again play again and get my mind into it I found that I can still absolutely play but my skills are rusty.

The problem I've found, trying to put my thoughts to it, is basically, even when you're trying to deal with general concepts, each wave that has been released has basically been a big ol' reset button to even the most basic strategy and tactics...

That's been the single biggest barrier for me, at the very least...

Many of the other games I've played some experienced player would start a "Boot Camp" sort of thread for beginners to read that usually gave basics for movement, list structure and basic combinations of units. They avoided Meta list building and focused on what new players needed to keep in mind.

FFG forums unfortunately appear to be lacking in this kind of forum discussions and it has been something I have been talking about on this forum and on the Off Topic Forum too. I would start one myself but I am not an expert in Armada yet. I took about a year off from gaming to take care of "life" that unfortunately through me for a loop. Now I can once again play again and get my mind into it I found that I can still absolutely play but my skills are rusty.

The problem I've found, trying to put my thoughts to it, is basically, even when you're trying to deal with general concepts, each wave that has been released has basically been a big ol' reset button to even the most basic strategy and tactics...

That's been the single biggest barrier for me, at the very least...

That I can not deny. Think there is a way to start at least? Basic concepts outside of the individual units?

Even the most basic concept of "Imperials like having things in front of them for big front arcs to shoot" and "Rebels have big broadsides so they shoot and scoot" No longer applies as basic concepts without being misleading somewhat.

I havn't found a basic enough ground yet.

The closest I've found is ClonTropers Threat-Range diagrams as as reference, but even then... Can't make them basic enough to count.

General concepts are changing with every wave. Its hard to make an indepth and detailed guide for something that shifts a ton.

You find those guides for video games and board games and less-actively developed miniature games because theyre relevant for quite awhile. Any guide that isnt a raw fundamental of the game (i.e. movement tips w/o any upgrades) will get out of date in a year or less and need a complete revamp, or pretty close to it.

Ive thought about making guides for xwing and this very thought cancelled that idea. Im very good at eyeballing maneuver template distances, to the point where i can usually eyeball multiple moves. Xwing keeps adding more ways to move around though, some of which are mandatory. So i decided to not waste my time.

Im sure many Armada vets are the same way.

Heck, wasnt there a lengthy period in Armada where squadrons were almost a surefire waste of points? Any guides back then would have been purely ship focused and irrelevant now.

Besides... Who wants to take advice from me... Mr Statistically Abysmal.....

Maybe we should have a discussion thread to hash it out with other players? There has to be some way to start this discussion. I mean there are thousands of books about chess and new ones still keep coming up to explain the new style or method being used. If there is still new ways to look at a game over hundreds of years old there has to be a way to break down this game. It's composition is complex but the rules are basic enough to fit in a small rule book.

Let's think about Fleet composition. As my original post stated there has to be a healthy balance between your Ship builds with a Squadron compliment. That concept is a core concept to building a fleet. The Squadrons Compliments the Ship Builds, not the other way around. Is your fleet made to support Bombers? Then make sure to bring the right bomber build. Is your list a more heavy hitting ISD list? Great but make sure to bring the right fighter screen to protect them and maybe a Flotilla to help with anti-squadron tricks and an extra activation. That concept has remained true from the start of the game. So how is it the Squadrons only compliment your list? Why? And what does that mean when you build your fleet? All good questions that I think we all already have an understanding of.

The problem with writing something like that is that it would need to get stickied to be of any value to new players, which would require a mod's intervention. We have basically zero mod presence here, as evidenced by the continued activity of the troll that I've been reporting since he started his Ben thread. The only stickied threads are from late 2014/early 2015.

That said, Biggs has written a great introductory series on his blog that is about as close to what you're suggesting as we have. It's linked in his signature, so it's as visible as he is active. Beyond that, I don't think you're going to get someone to invest the time into writing a persistent intro tactics post here until and unless we can get either an active mod or sticky rights for someone who shows up here more than biennially.

Ard, whilst true, you serioisly underestimate my searching skills

Well I guess I am still an optimist because I think there is something we could do. Better than reading another thread of a bored player looking to complain about some aspect of the game because they just don't understand simple concepts.

No, Gink, I underestimate your skills in continuously bumping a thread so it's always visible at the top of the page.

I wonder if I'd get B& if I wrote a sticky bot to just bump a thread every few hours...

Solid post and solid topic. There's a lot here in this thread.

First, I've absolutely seen the charge in fast strategy die hard, unless of course your fleet is built specifically for the charge-in fast. Good positioning and tactics rule the day.

Regarding Worlds and Justin's list and movement choices. I've played three games against Justin and know him personally. I've faced variants of his list on all three occasions. I'm not sure the posts above quite got the list right. What was wrong about the move was activating Gallant Haven that early in the sequence. The list is really designed to move quickly and bring speed 3 squadrons with a speed 2 or 3 Gallant Haven and shield/shepherd them across the board. That's what I think catches a lot of people off-guard. They're expecting a more slow methodical approach, and suddenly they have squadrons in their face that they cannot kill because they are shielded by Gallant Haven. He was quite exhausted and made the incorrect decision on the board, something I have done countless times, as has every skilled player on the board. Its a rigorous game and victory and defeat often turns on who makes the critical mistake. In fact, there's an old tongue-in-cheek chess saying that applies to Armada, "The winner is the player that makes the next-to-the-last mistake." Yes, I'm reiterating the OP's point about excellent tactics winning the game, but I wanted to point out a couple of key points about how Justin's list plays and the game state there.

On squadrons and winning the game. Following worlds, I started running a Tycho+3 A-wing list with the goal of just annoying large squadrons. I ran a speed list with the plan to kill key ships ASAP. That concept works. Again, I may not have won a regional with it, but I made enough traction, I think, to prove that is workable. As with a lot of top-end players, the games often come down to 1 key decision that separates victory or defeat, and about 3 decisions that represent a loss versus a very big win. Its a mentally tough and rigorous game.

To tactics. I think this is the biggest hole in the community content right now. Schmitty's videos have been great for this, but on the whole, we get a lot of blog posts in all quarters that: 1. Analyze new units and talk very generally about where they might fit into lists. 2. Display lists and report game results. 3. Talk about which upgrades to take and where. 4. Lots and Lots and lots of talk about specific lists.

I think the cause is two-fold. First, lists can be very personal. We talk about "my" list, and winning with "my" list as opposed to some list that we have borrowed. Second, the list is the most "under our control" element of the game. Once the game starts, a large number of possibilities unfold and it is simply much easier to talk about list design than it is to talk about what we do in a given situation on the board.

I suspect that after the February 11th San Antonio regional, I'll have a bit more time to discuss specific concepts. A couple of hints of where I might go:

1. I come at this from a chess perspective. I have played an absolute ton of chess over the course of my life. My rating tends to bounce up and down, but if I'm in practice and in shape, I usually play at the 90th percentile, and after a long break where the mind isn't as sharp and where I might not be trying very hard, I can still hack about the 75th percentile. There's a lot of calculation that goes into how I play Armada that's really difficult to describe in-text. So I'll often activate and move a ship on one turn with a fairly clear idea where ships will be at the end of this turn and what order I'll activate them in during the next turn. Most of the time, I'm usually correct, but its pretty difficult to explain why I'm correct without specifics. So one topic could easily be "Calculation in the game of Armada."

2. Tactics, Tactics, Tactics: Armada is advertised as a game of tactical combat. In comparison, although chess has a huge strategic dimension, almost all games outside of the top 10th percentile are won or lost on a major (not minor) tactical error. The more capable a player is of seeing the "potential" of the opponent's fleet, the better they'll be at game tactics. And although match-ups might leave a 10-1 out of your reach, or give you a slightly favorable chance of winning, there's an enormous amount of latitude in how tactics affect the outcome of the game.

In short, I think there is a lot of unexpressed content that goes through top player's minds. I've uncovered some of it in conversations, but on the whole, most of us admit that it is pretty difficult to put on paper. There's a parallel to Ginkapo's discussion of Ackbar Star Destroyers a few months ago, where he acknowledged that he just "does things." Once you're at the game board, we all just "do things," and it can difficult to explain what those things are. In short, top players are very good at thinking, but not everyone is equally gifting at "thinking about thinking," and then someone has to have the inclination and drive to put that on paper.

In short, great topic. Great contributions from the community, and a breath of fresh air today. Thanks for posting.

Cellphone post so forgive if it's short and sweet

I don't think people have too much issues with squadrons, I think people have problems with pay to activate Flotillas.

For me personally, one of the pieces of the game that really makes the learning curve steep is how activation advantage and initiative work out with each other. This is where trying to teach someone how to play is also difficult- it's a really odd concept that an 18 point rebel transport can be so valuable for nothing other than what is equivalent to a "pass."

As a very minimum example, we could take two CR90's vs one VSD. The game plays extremely differently if you allow the double CR90 player initative. Then we can take this and add a gozanti to the Imperial side. Again, you have to play very differently as the rebel player at that point.

I know this is kind of getting derailed, but perhaps a set of learning scenarios would help? I notice that for the top players, there's a whole lot of very delicate positioning ballet going on before anyone is in range: having a few diagrams of how this plays out one or two turns down the line would help a lot.

Wait. I think instead I'll call Flotillas "pay to pass your turn for your main ships"

Squadrons are the Devils sheep, and Flotillas are their shepherds. End rant.