I see the Raider as just that. The AA ship capable of ship to ship combat. If we want a dedicated AA ship, you would see something like

Small base

Speed 2-3

1 blue, 1 red AA

1 blue anti-ship out each arc

3 hull

2 shields on each side, just 1 in back

2X Redirect, 1 Evade

Drop the red AA, and it's pretty good. Red AA on a ship means you can shoot at every stand at once. Unless you are talking ISD level cost for this corvette-sized ship, it's powerful enough to eliminate squadrons from Armada.

If you drop the Red AA it's just a flotilla that's probably a little less survivable. I like the single red aa on it. Spike damage but overall less chance for it. Depending on the arcs you could make sure it isn't easy to double arc wide swaths of fighters as well.

Single red dice would be useless, as 3/8 face would mean damage. If this ships crits counted as 1 damage, maybe.

the OPs ship would have to cost 100 points because it could kill every fighter on the table in 2 turns

and kill the whole star wars feel of the game with them.

Sure, if I fly every squadron on the table up to it, and it has nothing better to shoot at. If, OTOH, I fly my squadrons like a sane person, and give the squadrons capital ship cover, then it becomes a much less certain thing, doesn't it?

I want to see ships a bit more powerful against squadrons. Not too much. I'd like to see an anti-squadron flotilla with anti-squadron battery R, U, K.

Or, as you say, an offence or defence retrofit that increases anti-squadron by one red die. Or replaces one anti squadron die with red. I find blue anti-squad to be mostly useless, because by the time enemy squads are close enough to shoot at with blues, I've got other issues. I think a red die would represent a handy flack cannon. Long range, deadly if it hits, but dependent of volume of fire to land any hits.

Single red dice would be useless, as 3/8 face would mean damage. If this ships crits counted as 1 damage, maybe.

A Blue die is not considered useless, has 4/8 sides showing, and does the same amount of "Average" damage as a Red die does, when used for Anti-Squadron Firepower.

The difference is, apart from the reliability of said damage, is the fact that the extra range of a red die may add +50 to +80 % of the in-arc board coverage, which can dramatically increase the amount of times you roll...

I mean, which is better...

Getting 2 Shots with 1 Blue

Or getting 6 shots with 1 Red ?

As being said above: if you don't fly your your squads against it, you don't take damage. ISD can one-shot many ships, yet there are no topics crying about how op it is. Why? Simply you don't fly against it with something fragile, or exploit its limited mobility. Deploying well is still the part of the game, and a lot of battles are settled that moment. There is no pistol at your had. It's just: this game is about everything has a counter, and you 'place a bet' when you create your fleet, and try to anticipate what your opponents might come up with, so you'll try to counter it. Its like a circle: squads kill big ships, big ships kill small ships, small ships kill squads. I hope you know what I mean.

2 shots with blue vs 6 with one red: well, with the blue I get 1 damage on average, with the reds... on a lucky day 2 of the rolls do damage, and I get frustrated of the bed rolls. 1 red with a reroll however... youll flip the table less often;)

You can say raider already fills an AA ship role, but you know it well: it gets eaten alive if it gets into black range with enemy figthers, unless you take dedicated fighters to protect it. So you end up spending ~100 point for a not-so-reliable AA source, as its not so hard to dodge it, unless you bring an intel-killer setup. Yet again, that's ~150-170 points. So you are back at the start again. I think there is a need for a relatively cheap AA source. Double blue/red+blue with an Ion upgrade slot might be a decent option, as youd get your reroll with Leading shots.

Thing is, in my opinion, people tend to Overload their Raiders, and thats' why they don't feel they get much from them.

They're a pretty cheap AA source when you run them naked. And they're hardly worth dedicating to swatting at that point, too...

I suspect such massive area-denial for squadrons is more of a challenge (to squadron play) than the area denial of an ISD's front arc.

Beyond using it defensively, consider how someone can use it offensively. Drive in bombers. Use your red-anti-squadron ship to take pot-shots at potentially every single one of your opponent's screening squadrons.

At that point, are you making things "better" or worse?

EDIT: And I'll add, after an evening of looking, I've been unable to find any examples of Star Wars fleet-size battles where starfighters (and bombers) weren't a major component of them. Heck, the descriptions of starfighter strategy and military theory are, essentially, descriptions of the existing squadron game. "You need to bring squadrons to prevent enemy squadrons from wrecking your capital ships, as they tend to do."

Within the same thread...

"red dice AA are useless"

"red die AA is OP"

Personally I think you'll see it eventually on a carefully crafted flotilla. They've done a lot to speed up fighters and to stop them just being engaged and sitting ducks to AA fire. The improvement to the range should be counteracted just a bit by the flakiness of the red dice. As long as they don;t give you a re-roll or dice manipulation to the long range shots I don't see an issue. People weren't complaining that double blue AA was broken before and if you make a red dice ship a priority it should mean maybe 1 more round of shooting before you try to kill it.

I think it's an interesting (and potent) design space, but I feel like people don't fully grasp what it could do.

I, too, expect (and hope) that we'll see it at some point. I don't think it'll end squadron play. But I also don't think it'll be suitable to being your only answer to squadrons, either. I suspect it'll end up synergizing really well with squadron play, and maybe make it more dangerous overall, but still not really facilitate "all ships" play.

I don't think we'll ever go back to the "all ships" play and I'm ok with that (play skill aside, I'm sure someone will make it work). The designers basically said as much in the last article that they've made squadrons too dangerous not to take some kind of fighter cover.

The more I think about it though I could see a flotilla like to Brahatok gunship with 1 red die AA, 1 black dice out of all the sides and a missile upgrade. Interesting combo of ranges, flimsy enough to kill, deadly enough to not just completely ignore.

How about an AFMKII with dual turbo lasers and home one nearby. You roll 2 blue AA but then if you dont like the result 2 crits or accuracy (vs no ace)/crit you can now roll a red die. Potentially 3 points of damage and if its an ace a guarantee of acc.

Add toryn in to re roll the blue even.

I still don't think the answer is a new AA ship. The answer needs to be making AA on current ships effective.

Fighters have it too easy now. Even when I spray down a group of fighters with my ISD, I'm only rarely rolling two hits on those blue die. The only thing threatened by my two dice AA shots are hull 3-4 Imperial fighters. The reason it works is because you're supposed to follow up with your fighters to clean up what your AA spray left over, or vice versa. But what if you're not able to for whatever reason (like TIEs being oneshot by someone actually trying at the squadron game)?

What I want to see, and this doesn't have to go to the extreme of invalidating squadron play, is reasons for fighters to hesitate before attacking just any capital ship target. QLTs are nonthreatening because of the one blue die scoring only one damage. Cluster bombs works against one fighter and is expensive. I'd like to see, when bombers commit, that they're facing an ion upgrade that deals more damage to them if they have already activated for example.

People are pointing out F-Torps, but these things are yoked to a flimsy Raider and only works on two ships in the entire game: Raiders and Peltas. It helps Raiders get more utility, along with the Peltas, but it's hardly an end-all option. And if you're relying on 4-hull Raiders, which have no defensive upgrade slot and no redirect, be prepared to hand your 47 point Raider to any opponent that has a good bomber cloud and the initiative.

Between FTorps and taking fighters, Fighters are still your best anti-squadron "Upgrade" in the game. They kill squadrons and they're flexible enough to threaten ships, still, with the only direct threat to their existence being enemy fighters. I want that to change... not bad enough to make squadrons invalid... but at least make capital ships fight a bit better in the face of fighter clouds should they choose to invest in the upgrades.

So how about things like: rapid-fire quad lasers (counter 2 v squads). Sw6 ion batteries (sw7 for anti-squadron). Anti-fighter defenses: defense tokens last until end of current squad phase (redirect, brace, contain only, not scatter...). Point-defense coordination network: anti-squadron attacks are not obstructed by friendly small-based ships.

Just throwing ideas out.

If Point Defense Reroute worked out to medium range, then we could have something because then it increases two-dice chances of hitting things. And on the ISD-I, pairing this with QLT makes it great against fighters on paper. Taking Tua for Cluster bombs makes it a very unhappy ship to start shooting at... and why is this a bad thing when the ISD is the most expensive single ship in the game? If I kit out the pricey thing I want it to do wonders.

If PDR worked at medium then VSDs can slap it on and not have to resort to H9s and Warlords for the chance of reliably hurting fighters without fighters of their own.

But with PDRs being as restrictive and expensive as they are, you can't use them on the approach. By the time you're close range with them, it's been in my experience you're usually wanting to use your battery to threaten the capital ships that are commanding those fighters. Yes you can dump the points into gunnery teams as well, but things start to get expensive and complicated, since you're starting to ask "for the points dumped in here, how much more could I get with boosted comms, flight controllers, and TIE Defenders/Bombers/Interceptors?"

Been thinking about this over the weekend, and I came up with this:

Turbolaser: Modification. Add 1 red die to your anti-squadron battery. This ship cannot attack squadrons at distance 1. (6 points)

Forbidding attacks at range 1 simulated "trench-run disease" which plagued Imperial ships, but it also incentivizes fighters to get to their target, rather than loitering nearby, either waiting for the target to come to them, or acting as a "screen" against enemy fighters. This hurts non-rogue bombers more than any other squadron, and puts the boot to Major Rhymer. I tend to move my bombers to where I'm expecting the enemy to go, so they can get a free attack in the squadron phase.

Any thoughts on the idea?

Been thinking about this over the weekend, and I came up with this:

Turbolaser: Modification. Add 1 red die to your anti-squadron battery. This ship cannot attack squadrons at distance 1. (6 points)

Forbidding attacks at range 1 simulated "trench-run disease" which plagued Imperial ships, but it also incentivizes fighters to get to their target, rather than loitering nearby, either waiting for the target to come to them, or acting as a "screen" against enemy fighters. This hurts non-rogue bombers more than any other squadron, and puts the boot to Major Rhymer. I tend to move my bombers to where I'm expecting the enemy to go, so they can get a free attack in the squadron phase.

Any thoughts on the idea?

It's not a bad idea, but I think it hurts Rebels more than Imps. Speed 4 Tie/B and speed 5 Defender are going to get in your face really quickly, which means you won't get an anti-squad attack. Rebels are paralyzingly slow on the other hand, and you may get 2 shots off at squads before they can close the gap.

It also really limit the use of black anti squad dice on the ISD I and Liberty.

I see this upgrade most effective on fast ships like the Arq or CR90. Going speed 3 means they can outrun the squads and shoot them next round.

Instead of not being able to attack squads at range 1, what about removing the red die at range 1? So you can still attack, but it's not as strong.

Note that this would hurt rebels, but it would make Major Rhymer all but useless.

I thought about making it something like, "If you are attacking at medium/long range, add one red die to battery." Either would be an interesting play.

ISD can one-shot many ships, yet there are no topics crying about how op it is. Why? Simply you don't fly against it with something fragile, or exploit its limited mobility.

Nobody complains about the ISD one-shotting ships because it's the most expensive ship in the game, and you expect to get what you pay for in points. The problem is when someone takes fighters worth a fraction of the ISD's cost, and completely wipe it off the table within two turns.

And the only antedote to stop this seems to be "Take more fighters" or "play smarter." Sure, you can take steps to slow your advance and get some distance shots in, but when you're forced to collide with the fighter ball, what's the ISD's best response?

ISD can one-shot many ships, yet there are no topics crying about how op it is. Why? Simply you don't fly against it with something fragile, or exploit its limited mobility.

Nobody complains about the ISD one-shotting ships because it's the most expensive ship in the game, and you expect to get what you pay for in points. The problem is when someone takes fighters worth a fraction of the ISD's cost, and completely wipe it off the table within two turns.

I've yet to see fighters "Worth of fraction of the ISDs Cost" go and "completely wipe it off the table within two turns" on their own...

Not without support.

Help taking shields down.

Commands to do it.

Etc.

I mean, I've put 3-4 damage cards on an ISD in one activation from unscratched.

But that was Norra, 3 Ys, a Pelta and Sato, all contributing, in a points exchange that was in the ISD's favour...

And the ISD turned around and one-shot the Pelta next turn...

Norra, B-Wings, stacked Bomber Command Centers with Toryn Farr, and X-Wings contributing once they've finished killing their fighter targets.

I dunno, I might be wrong. I could be thinking of VSDs instead, which I fly more often for their costs and the ability to take multiples. But I know I've been startled on how quickly shields vanish when running up against Norra with massed bombers, and how frustrating it's been to be on the receiving end of that.

On top of just the reality of multiple small-damage attacks blowing defense tokens and sinking through shields. :\

I know the feeling, but its hard to be objective about it when its an evocative subject...

They simple matter is - unless they're massed Rogues, they're not doing it on their own, and you need to factor in those things in the price.. In the end, you end up getting close - or exceeding - the ISD's cost to do it... And there's generally a lynchpin you can pull out, as the ISD player (Even if its Speed or Command Choices) to do it. And then, you asked yourself, "What do I do now?" - that's generally exceptionally poignant of B-Wings... Who have the capacity lay on the hurt for a turn, but then get left-behind... Unless you are paying even more points elsewhere to support them...

As a Rebel player, do I put untoward amounts of Firepower on ISDs when I see one on the battlefield? Hell Yes.

Because it has the capability to trash just about everything if I don't harass it constantly.

Note that this would hurt rebels, but it would make Major Rhymer all but useless.

I thought about making it something like, "If you are attacking at medium/long range, add one red die to battery." Either would be an interesting play.

I dont really see a single red die being a complete hard counter to a Rhymer-ball. Would it help? Hell yeah, but totally shut it down? I think thats a bit much.

I know the feeling, but its hard to be objective about it when its an evocative subject...

They simple matter is - unless they're massed Rogues, they're not doing it on their own, and you need to factor in those things in the price.. In the end, you end up getting close - or exceeding - the ISD's cost to do it... And there's generally a lynchpin you can pull out, as the ISD player (Even if its Speed or Command Choices) to do it. And then, you asked yourself, "What do I do now?" - that's generally exceptionally poignant of B-Wings... Who have the capacity lay on the hurt for a turn, but then get left-behind... Unless you are paying even more points elsewhere to support them...

As a Rebel player, do I put untoward amounts of Firepower on ISDs when I see one on the battlefield? Hell Yes.

Because it has the capability to trash just about everything if I don't harass it constantly.

Oh, I never meant to suggest Fighters are doing all this without capital ships present. Of course they do.

They're just hanging back at long range behind the ball with boosted comms, commanding fighters and staying out of range while the fighters do all the lists' heavy lifting. And if you're not going anywhere anytime fast, forcing your enemy to come closer to you to score points/win the game, B-Wing speed is not an issue.

I've tried loading up anti-squadron upgrades on two dice ships for no effect, so now I'm trying squadrons. What this has done though, is convinced me that large ships are valued for their squadron values more, because as gunships they're just big targets without fighters to stop max fighter builds.

Its in the timing and the combined arms, indeed.

Imperial Star Destroyers are BattleCarriers basically... To neglect any one part of them is to neglect a point of strength and thus, go into battle one hand tied behind their back...

A Pure carrier relies just on its squadron component, and lacks the ability to follow up (or lead) with massive damage itself.

A pure battleship relies on just its Guns, and lacks the ability to lead or follow up (or screen itself) with a Fighter Contingent.

The ISD is the Jack of All Trades. To see it as anything else, is to neglect part of it. It has Speed, it has Hull, it has shields, it has Squadron Command and it has Firepower.

And it doesn't seem to compromise on any of those points.

Leveraging all of its strengths isn't a point-and-click matter, at all... But the player who has learned how to utilise it - to launch a squadron screening strike (just when needed), to Speed into and through the enemy, to bring the Guns to Bear, to weather the storm, and to leave the enemy command in its wake (because, frankly, Nothing except another ISD has that wonderful blend of Weapons, Arc, Speed, Shields and Squadron Command that you do)... They're compromising somewhere, where you have the best of all the worlds...

Its an unfortunate observation in my fields that a lot of poeple just want the ISD to be the big bruising badass, and point blankly refuse to learn the subtlety required to balance something that is of the ilk...

You seem to be someone who is experimenting, so I'm sure you'll see it through to the end


As a Rebel, I'd kill for something outfitted like an ISD.

Note that this would hurt rebels, but it would make Major Rhymer all but useless.

I thought about making it something like, "If you are attacking at medium/long range, add one red die to battery." Either would be an interesting play.

I dont really see a single red die being a complete hard counter to a Rhymer-ball. Would it help? Hell yeah, but totally shut it down? I think thats a bit much.

Depends on what it is put on. If you were trading 2-3 anti-ship dice off an ISD-base ship, in exchange for changing anti-squad to red/blue, it probably wouldn't kill squad play.

But a 30-40 point escort with 1 red AA against every squad in arc? yes, that would reduce squad lists to irrelevance, because you could take 3-4 of them for the same cost as a fighter wing, and have multiple overlapping flak bubbles, plus the core of your fleet with it's own AA fire to contribute. A red anti-squad die is not 2x better than a blue one, it's 4x better.