I personally like the ships and the faction itself shown in the RTS game Star Wars Empire at War: Forces of corruption. It fits in the timeline of armada and shows a couple of characters and commanders that could fit, as well as various size ships and squadrons, including the skipray. I dont know if that is canon anymore or what. Ended up so confused about what is and what is not.

7 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

So I'm failing to see how this doesn't just compound the perceived problem that some players already have with Flotillas, where they have no compulsion to engage the enemy fleet. It sounds like that's the sum total of your fleet design philosophy.

I was just throwing out some examples, not outlining a philosophy. But while I'm here, let's have some FUN examples (instead of Nerd Rage)!

Here are some! If you don't like them, great! Super! I don't work here. So here we go:

Trade Federation Droid Control Ship (Large Base) 110 Pts
4 Hulls Zones / 8 Hull / 2 Shields Each / BUT ONLY 2 Arcs, front & back (cuz it's a circle!)
Has Perma-Gunnery Team / 2 Red, 1 Blue Die
3 Command / 4 Squadron / 4 Engineering / Speed 2
MANUFACTURERS Vultures Droids = Each round, when ship activates may deploy at Range 1 new Vulture Droids up to limit of 4.
Vulture Droids (6 Pts) = 3 Speed / 2 Hull / 2 Blue Die / 1 Red Die / May ONLY fire on squads/ships if issued Squadron command.
Vulture Droids still count against total points, and you may not have more Vulture Droids than you have Droid Control Ships. Basically, as Vulture Droids get popped, the Command ship can replace them. Destroying them still counts against Scum player but, hey it's an onslaught each round.

OR

Hondo Onaka's Flying Saucers (actual name = Corona Class Armed Frigate, from Rebels)
Corona Class Pirate Frigate (Medium Base) 77 Pts
5 Hull / 2 Shields Each / 2 Blue, 1 Black x4 equally-spaced Hulls Zones (also a circle but doesn't get the perm-gunnery team opt because variety)
2 Command / 1 Squadron / 2 Engineering / Speed 3
All about boarding. Comes w/ 1 pt title upgrade that allows Tractor Beam upgrade for FREE (w/o using offensive retrofit). Basically would allow Tractor Beam AND Boarding Party upgrades.

OR

Spice Runners (straight making this up)
Spice Runner Corvette (Small Base) 55 Pts
4 Hull / 1 Shield F/B, 2 Shield L/R / 3 Red, 1 Blue L/R, 1 Blue F/B
2 Command / 1 Squadron / 2 Engineering
May ONLY go speeds 0, 2, or 4 (+/- Eng Tech) - Unless @ Speed 0, MUST move before firing, then fire, and them move SAME speed again. Example 0 - Fire - 0, or 1 - Fire - 1, or 2 - Fire - 2. Eng tech may be used after only 1 of those maneuvers. Allows, Turbolaser upgrade. A Ram HALTS movement chain (so can't inherently double ram.)Concept is basically a ship that is moving fast to get into position to unload laser fire and then keep running.

Other Fun Ideas:
> How about a Scum Corvette that has Perma-Obstruct plus a title and Obstructs ANOTHER DIE? But weak it sacrifices ALL defense tokens to take the title upgrade? I am not going to even try to think of a Canon / Legends example, because. Just because.
> Scum Faction Commanders are all about buying / selling. For example, Hondo can allows ships that have boarded another ship to STEAL the defense tokens that are discarded.

Let's be creative and not self-limit. I think it's fun to see what ideas others have and I think that's best done in an open, receptive, and collaborative setting. So stay calm and add to the discussion instead of shooting it down. That's the reason I posted in the first place.

The last thing I want to see in Armada is a bunch of flying saucers...

Why do interstellar criminals want medium and large warships?

Protection - that's an awfully nice planet you have there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it...

Enforcement - when your govenrment borrows credits from the Hutts, you pay the interest on time - or this borowed VSD will show up and bombard your cities one by one as an example to every other deadbeat out there

Vanity - sure the Hutts make do with a one broken down repurposed VSD, they always were a bunch of broken down degenerate savages. Would you look at the brightwork on this ISD we just got in - beautiful! It's the fastest ship of its size anywhere. We acquired it from the same outfit that did Palpatine's personal ship.

6 minutes ago, OgRib said:

Why do interstellar criminals want medium and large warships?

Protection - that's an awfully nice planet you have there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it... The Empire destroys planets to "instil fear in the local systems". No criminal organisation is going to destroy a planet it can make money on. And who's going to pay the protection money? Assuming the planet has a unified, planet wide government that could, that planet has already caught the eye of the Empire in which case the Planetary Governor will pick up the holonet and call in Imperial protection.

Enforcement - when your govenrment borrows credits from the Hutts, you pay the interest on time - or this borowed VSD will show up and bombard your cities one by one as an example to every other deadbeat out there One thing you wouldn't do if a planetary government owed you money was bomb their cities. The cities would be where they generate tax income... The money they would be using to pay you back!

Vanity - sure the Hutts make do with a one broken down repurposed VSD, they always were a bunch of broken down degenerate savages. Would you look at the brightwork on this ISD we just got in - beautiful! It's the fastest ship of its size anywhere. We acquired it from the same outfit that did Palpatine's personal ship. I don't know of any real world 'gangsta' who has gone out and bought/stolen and then actually used, say, a MiG-29 Fighter Jet just because Vladimir Putin's Russian airforce uses them! Criminal bling tends to be of the recreational type (big houses, fast cars, drugs, jewellery) rather than incredibly expensive and difficult to maintain military hardware kind. I'm sure there's some Russian mafia boss out there with an old ex-army tank on his drive way but he's not likely to use it to 'off' his competitors.

I think the whole 'problem' with adding Scum & Villainy as a faction in Armada is (apart from the fact we already have most of their Squadrons in the gameon one side or the other!) that Criminal Organisations just wouldn't have the 'man-power' to field a fleet of any decent size even if they could get hold of the ships. According to Wookiepaedia (so you can take these figures with a little salt if you like) an Imperial Class Star Destroyer has an enlisted crew compliment of 27,850 as well as 9,235 Officers on board. Now I know a criminal organisation would run it's crews as light as possible but I can't believe the Empire just randomly pulls these crew figures out of thin air. All these souls must be doing some thing that relates to the fighting prowess of the ship they're on! Even if you believe that capital ships could be run and maintained with a third of the crew the Empire uses you'd still be looking for 12,361 people on one ship. So while these 12,361 are swanning around the universe threatening to blow up planets and going toe-to-toe with Palpatine and co who's on the home planet beating up the local business owners, selling Glitterstim, making sure the Twi'lek prostitutes are behaving themselves or any of the other mundane things criminal organisations do?

7 hours ago, Grey Mage said:

Why do they have to be gunning for war with the Empire? You dont have to be trying to go to war in order to have a Navy. Its something you maintain in case you need it.

...Until the empire decides you don't need those ships, and arrives with a Star Destroyer flotilla and backup to take them away from you, least the fall into the hands of the Rebellion (or you join the Rebellion). The Empire hasn't constructed thousands of Star Destroyers for nothing. They can't cover the entire galaxy, but what do you think warrants a stronger response than a single Arquitens on patrol? ISDs crush resistance. That's why Lothal is occupied in Rebels.

You'll also note that the Rebellion fled from the season Finale fight, and they lost their base in the end. They took out the Interdictors because they had to, they didn't stop the other six Star Destroyers. In the end, all they were left were their lightest ships, transports, and fighters... running away. How would a pirate battle be any different?

The Rebellion works as it does because like a pirate organization they've tried to hide as best as they could and strike when necessary. Even as late as Jedi, the Rebel alliance was actively avoiding the Imperial Navy to amass their strength and strike a target. That means the Alliance navy is mobile, likely decentralized, and constantly on the move... to survive. A pirate fleet protecting a hoarde and using VSDs/Venators/Acclaimators is going to get noticed by Imperial Authorities, and now those Imperial destroyers have something to do other than just being intimidating.

And while they're crusing that uppedty pirate base, they'll 'confiscate' the loot and about half of it will disappear into the pockets of the officers involved.

The way I see it, the Empire is the biggest fish. The Rebellion is a collective trying to build itself up to topple the big fish. Pirates have no reason to do this, because their motives are drastically different than those of the Rebellion (greed, rather than The Cause).

7 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I don't care what you say. If a group of pirates with nothing but what you described sees 2 or even 3 Imperial Class Star Destroyers, they are ******* running.

Hyperdrives take time to spool up/recharge/make calculations, and interdictors are a thing.

If reasons for the fight are hard to find it is because we lack imagination.

Quote

You'll also note that the Rebellion fled from the season Finale fight, and they lost their base in the end. They took out the Interdictors because they had to, they didn't stop the other six Star Destroyers. In the end, all they were left were their lightest ships, transports, and fighters... running away. How would a pirate battle be any different?

And even running away it was still a larger fleet engagement than most armada games on either side. You are literally proving my point here.

Quote

The way I see it, the Empire is the biggest fish. The Rebellion is a collective trying to build itself up to topple the big fish. Pirates have no reason to do this, because their motives are drastically different than those of the Rebellion (greed, rather than The Cause).

Greed means more ships, and larger ships so you can have larger targets and more security in catching them. Pirates IRL didnt worry about having to many ships or cannons- they worried about not having enough!

In a galaxy with millions of inhabitable worlds and hundreds of millions of mine-able systems, theres going to be plenty of people and plenty of strategies to bring a pirate group, merchant clans, and ticked off minor systems into conflict with each other, the rebellion, and the empire. That is in fact a significant part of why the empire needs the navy it has- and is looking to expand.

You think these guys pay retail for their warships, or for the spares & consumables they require? The only reason they cost so much to begin with is the Empire pays government rates. It's much more affordable when the graft and corruption is working for you.

When it comes to making an example of someone, loan sharks have no problem breaking a few legs or heads. On an interstellar scale that means if you have to bombard a few cities in order to get others to continue paying your rates then that's just they way it is. Maybe it would be easier for you to think of scum & villany factions more like regional warlords. Being seen to be powerful can be a huge motivator.

13 minutes ago, OgRib said:

Maybe it would be easier for you to think of scum & villany factions more like regional warlords. Being seen to be powerful can be a huge motivator.

That's an interesting point. I think along a similar line you could maybe justify a Scum & Villainy type faction as a sort of wandering space based 'pirate' fleet (much like the Eldar in 40K). But what people are talking about here just doesn't ring true of how criminal organisations would set themselves up. The Black Sun organisation in the old cannon had been around for thousands of years and had only managed to accumulate a handful of capital ships. I just think that the financial power and man-power needed to maintain a fighting fleet would be beyond most organisations. But if FFG were to release a third faction...

Pirates canonically have a SSD so...

I played a game where one of my ISD's got eaten alive by a fleet of CR-90s...in canon thatd be dumb but in a game my opponent chose a better strategy.

As someone said the galaxy is massive. People forget that or misconstrue how ridiculously huge it is. There's enough pirates and gangs and splinter rebels cells like Saw Gerrera's, especially in the lawless outer rim, that a scum faction isnt inconcievable.

6 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Pirates canonically have a SSD so...

Oh, I know. But just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense!

Edit - As I said previously, I don't have a problem with a pirate fleet idea. My issue is with criminal organisations being able to acquire, maintain and man a space fleet whilst running their business affairs at the same time!

10 minutes ago, HoundsTooth said:

Oh, I know. But just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense!

Edit - As I said previously, I don't have a problem with a pirate fleet idea. My issue is with criminal organisations being able to acquire, maintain and man a space fleet whilst running their business affairs at the same time!

Well no I agree to a point. There is no way scum would ever be able to field a fleet able to contend with the Imperial Navy on a galactic level and maintain their neutrality. Niether the Alliance or the Empire would tolerate such a threat.

However this game isnt really about conquering the galaxy. The vast majority of Armada is centered around skirmishes and singular battles and conflicts. That is where scum and pirate gangs would floruish. Hit and fade attacks and the like.

1 minute ago, Forresto said:

Well no I agree to a point. There is no way scum would ever be able to field a fleet able to contend with the Imperial Navy on a galactic level and maintain their neutrality. Niether the Alliance or the Empire would tolerate such a threat.

However this game isnt really about conquering the galaxy. The vast majority of Armada is centered around skirmishes and singular battles and conflicts. That is where scum and pirate gangs would floruish. Hit and fade attacks and the like.

But how much man-power and resource would it take to fit out and crew enough ships to fill a 400pt Armada fleet? I agree that Armada is still only a small scale conflict game, but I don't believe a criminal organisation would have the ability to field even a fleet of this size, let alone tackle the might of the Empire. The small hit and fade attacks you mention are better represented by X-Wing and X-Wing Epic size battles.

Using a real world analogy... Why doesn't the Mafia have a military air force or navy?

Every new seems to forget about the flying sauser looking ships that Hondo had in star wars to clone wars. Idk if it's been mentioned but that's one. Also the zahn consortium in empire at war forces of corruption had a fleet.

44 minutes ago, HoundsTooth said:

But how much man-power and resource would it take to fit out and crew enough ships to fill a 400pt Armada fleet? I agree that Armada is still only a small scale conflict game, but I don't believe a criminal organisation would have the ability to field even a fleet of this size, let alone tackle the might of the Empire. The small hit and fade attacks you mention are better represented by X-Wing and X-Wing Epic size battles.

Using a real world analogy... Why doesn't the Mafia have a military air force or navy?

Because they dont need one. There is no geo political reason for any criminal organization on Earth to need any form of navy nowadays. There was a time where naval piracy was rampant and there are many instances of pirates going toe to toe with more experienced navies. America fought a few wars against the barbary pirates for instance. Nowadays its all land based and if you need to get somewhere you just fly. You can circumvent old school modes of transportation for traversing the ocean.

Star Wars is set in a universe where space travel is laughably common. Everyone is planet hopping and there is no circumventing space (no jump gates). Spaceships are the smartphones of Star Wars.

So in Star Wars criminal organizations as large as say the Hutt Clans and Black Suns would need a contigent of starships and warships to fight eachother. I imagine that considering most of the rebel fleet is comprised of civillian ships retrofitted into warships, a galaxy wide criminal syndicate can pull together a fleet of vessels as tough if not tougher then most of the medium and small base rebel side ships.

59 minutes ago, HoundsTooth said:

But how much man-power and resource would it take to fit out and crew enough ships to fill a 400pt Armada fleet? I agree that Armada is still only a small scale conflict game, but I don't believe a criminal organisation would have the ability to field even a fleet of this size, let alone tackle the might of the Empire. The small hit and fade attacks you mention are better represented by X-Wing and X-Wing Epic size battles.

Using a real world analogy... Why doesn't the Mafia have a military air force or navy?

Depends on the fleet, an MSU fleet or a fighter heavy fleet for the Rebels doesn't take a lot of crew and this is a universe with lots of inhabitable planets, planetoids, asteroids and space stations. Empire ships require ridiculous crews because they make their ships huge to be intimidating and honestly I think the Imperial Navy and Army seem to be huge job programs to employ all the humans who felt they were not getting work due to the aliens. S&V ships are often modified freight vessels which are designed to work with smaller crews, though those crews would need to be severely increased when made into a military ship, but would still probably take up less crew than the vast majority of combat vessels.

The Mafia helped the allies take over Sicily and the Mafia has changed a lot over the years. The way the Star Wars galaxy is written and shown we have real world equivalents for the smaller smugglers and pirates being drug cartels and Somali pirates and the like but for the larger factions you would need to look at historical privateers and pirates. China took over modern day Taiwan because they were sick of pirates using it to take out their merchant vessels and even beating the Chinese navy. That is like the Empire finally coming in and taking one of the Outer Rim planets because they are tired of it being used as a base by one of the Hutt cartels, large pirate or slaver groups, some of which under the old canon were publicly endorsed and had capital ships (Sabaoth, Zygerian slavers, etc) but not succeeding in crushing the group, just widening their sphere and making it harder for the pirates to operate.

I'm not actually on team S&V (I want Clone Wars simply because I like the ship designs or possibly Resistance v. First Order as I think they can simply be added on as extensions of where the story goes), but I find many of the anti-S&V arguments are not very strong. The idea that S&V can't have anything powerful because the Empire will squash it is patently false, for one, Empire failed to squash the Rebellion during its nascent period, secondly , it made deals with certain S&V organizations under old canon and probably new canon as well, third it wasn't everywhere, was purposefully barely present in some places (Hutt Space) and as we know had constant security leaks which S&V factions would use to not be in the area where giant ISD combat groups are but at worse in places where an Armada sized battle would be. As for the Rebellion it is much harder to get people to rise up for potential more freedom or going back to an old bureaucratic system than it is to say, fight for us, we have whatever it is you desire (drugs, sex, weapons, contraband of whatever sort). The Rebellion did have official backing but so did/do certain S&V factions. Zygerian slave traders seem to be Zygeria's main source of GDP. Zygeria just made deals with the Empire, but sometimes some of them ran afoul of the Empire, or the Empire needed to put on a show of force that they thought 'slavery bad!' and what you would have would be an Armada sized game as the Empire tries to show it is tough on slavery and either they would win the one battle and go, "See, we showed them. Slavery bad!" or they'd lose and the Empire would be, "Welp, we tried. Guess we'll execute the governor of that sector and rethink our next step." You know, like the way all the major powers treat the warlords in Africa.

S&V would totally break my head canon when you are talking the big final battle in Corellian Conflict. I could see S&V at 400 points but not a 1500 point battle, but we already break canon all the time playing Armada by not having it be two or three small Rebel ships with only a few wings of fighters, or just the Ghost and a wing or two of fighters taking on and winning against two ISDs and a couple small support ships and some TIEs.

1 hour ago, Forresto said:

So in Star Wars criminal organizations as large as say the Hutt Clans and Black Suns would need a contigent of starships and warships to fight eachother. I imagine that considering most of the rebel fleet is comprised of civillian ships retrofitted into warships, a galaxy wide criminal syndicate can pull together a fleet of vessels as tough if not tougher then most of the medium and small base rebel side ships.

I agree totally with that point Forresto! The Hutt Clans are 'colonialists', historically settling on (and taking over the criminal operations of) various planets throughout the galaxy. Black Sun is the oldest criminal organisation operating in the same galaxy. They've been in existence for over three thousand years, amassing huge wealth and political influence. They are even rumoured to control whole planets and systems, like the Hutts. But these two groups are really the only 'galaxy wide criminal syndicates'. Most other groups are condensed into the outer rim where resources (ships, credits, people) are scarcer. This is why I would have no problem with a Hutt Fleet or even a Black Sun Fleet in Armada. But my original opposition to 'Scum & Villainy' fleets was because they were being talked about in this (and other previous posts on the topic) as being a sort of rag-tag mix of minor criminal organisations, low lifes and bounty hunters. I still don't think that anyone other than Black Sun and the Hutts would have enough 'spare' resources to run a major fleet.

See the picture I posted above for what I would expect from an FFG Hutt Fleet

Scum in Armada would be an absolute dealbreaker for me.. I hate it in X-wing but there there is some sense to it as criminal cartels could have some fighters in that univers. In Armada wouldnt ´ make any sense at all - it is about big warships..

14 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I don't care what you say. If a group of pirates with nothing but what you described sees 2 or even 3 Imperial Class Star Destroyers, they are ******* running.

While I agree with limitation of outright pirates wanting to fight the big evil empire, Hutts, pirates and the CSA would be more than willing to fight the rebellion and would provide a good excuse for FFG to bring in venators, etc.

I see lots of talk about how would Scumm crew these ships. Scumm already crew these ships. All the smugglers, pirates, transports etc that they are already running is a fleet.

What, you think they run their interplanetary smuggling and piracy concerns with no ships? At one stage you could argue the Millenium Falcon and Han were part of the Hutts fleet.

The criminal organisations have more money than the Rebellion, more resources and that means they can hire more people. There are more criminals in the galaxy than there are Rebels (even though Rebels are technically criminals)

And to the points of "The Empire wouldn't allow it and would crush the Hutts/Black Sun" well, in canon sources the Old Republic and the Seperatists have to deal with the Hutts rather than force there way through. The Empire could, but at what cost? THe Hutts dont want to control the galaxy, just the underbelly. Why would they waste resources fighting them?

Again, in the end, a Rebel fleet IS a Scumm fleet.

Who needs a full scum crew when you can use OOM pilot droids bought on the black market...

On 1/12/2017 at 2:38 AM, DiabloAzul said:

A new faction can happen. That doesn't mean it should.

I, for one, would find it more interesting to have new cross-faction ships released. That can mean e.g. mercenaries, neutral sub-groups, captured ships, or simply ships available to both main factions. For example, a Dreadnaught with both Rebel and Imperial ship and title cards, all in a single SKU. Something like:

Of course, why sell one SKU if you can sell two, right?

I like your idea for how to implement a dual-faction ship in a way that keeps the Imperial version separate from the Rebel version. But I think you should change a few things. First of all with game limited to six turns no chip should have a command value of over 3 (unless it is the Super Star Destroyer or other type flagship) . They should all have their command value set at 3. Also the Katana class cruiser should be different from Imperial and Rebel versions. Maybe switch all blue dice to black dice on one of the Katana's and adjust the fleet point by 1 or 2.

As for additional factions, as I said again that would probably come in the form of the prequel and sequel trilogies. Now would they be their own separate faction or will there be fully integrated, or is there some sort of alliance system when additional factions are put into play? Those are all good questions, as the politics for the prequels are rather confusing (would the Republic be Rebel or Empire?). Still as far as scum or any other neutral faction, I don't see it coming to Armada anytime soon. Besides you don't get a lot of three ways in warfare. Most either side with Belligerent A, Belligerent B or stay completely out of it.

16 hours ago, Forresto said:

Pirates canonically have a SSD so...

I played a game where one of my ISD's got eaten alive by a fleet of CR-90s...in canon thatd be dumb but in a game my opponent chose a better strategy.

As someone said the galaxy is massive. People forget that or misconstrue how ridiculously huge it is. There's enough pirates and gangs and splinter rebels cells like Saw Gerrera's, especially in the lawless outer rim, that a scum faction isnt inconcievable.

It's pretty heavily indicated that those "pirates" are Rebels.

8 hours ago, Teloch said:

I see lots of talk about how would Scumm crew these ships. Scumm already crew these ships. All the smugglers, pirates, transports etc that they are already running is a fleet.

What, you think they run their interplanetary smuggling and piracy concerns with no ships? At one stage you could argue the Millenium Falcon and Han were part of the Hutts fleet.

The criminal organisations have more money than the Rebellion, more resources and that means they can hire more people. There are more criminals in the galaxy than there are Rebels (even though Rebels are technically criminals)

And to the points of "The Empire wouldn't allow it and would crush the Hutts/Black Sun" well, in canon sources the Old Republic and the Seperatists have to deal with the Hutts rather than force there way through. The Empire could, but at what cost? THe Hutts dont want to control the galaxy, just the underbelly. Why would they waste resources fighting them?

Again, in the end, a Rebel fleet IS a Scumm fleet.

There are a few issues here that your conveniently ignoring.

First off is that crewing a ship is about more than just having bodies. You need trained, disciplined crews capable and willing to follow orders even when going into harm's way. Not just a few brave captains, but entire crews numbering in the hundreds or thousands per warship. This is a key reason why the Hutts or Black Sun can't just throw a massive navy together. At the end of the battle, opportunistic captains will have fled or backstabbed each other. The Hutts aren't hiring based on loyalty in the same way the Rebels and Imperials depend on their philosophical strengths to sway people to join and fight and die for a cause. No Black Sun ship would have rammed into an ISD based on the mere orders of the fleet admiral if they didn't fully expect to survive.

Second, you need repair and refit services capable of supporting an entire fleet of warships on the move. And piracy is a notoriously poor way to make money. First, you need to have buyers for the goods or hostages you take. Then you need to hope they pay enough for what you invested. Even the slightest return fire potentially evaporates the profits of any successful attack.

There is only one type of group that had ever successfully done this third-party quasi navy and that is mercenary groups. However any mercenary group large enough to seriously threaten a major Imperial naval presence would be destroyed, forced to join the Rebellion for survival, or be officially folded into the Empire. In the real world Blackwater might work handling security for some companies and organizations in the Middle East, but they can't stand up to even moderately well equipped professional military forces in the region.

18 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

The last thing I want to see in Armada is a bunch of flying saucers...

LOL

However, a) too late (see Ep1-3, Clone Wars, and Rebels) and, B) we're all too busy pushing up our glasses discussing Scum Human Resources and SW Wage and Hours Laws to actually discuss any mechanics that would make a new faction, you know, actually enjoyable to play. I don't really care if FFG decides that EWOKS have become an intergalactic powerhouse where black dice = log attacks as long as the idea is implemented in a new and interesting way that complements the two existing factions while offering new and exciting options (and it's OP).

Ok so maybe there is a limit and Ewoks are past it, but there's still room for innovation. It's more fun to brainstorm interesting additions to this great game than to say:

"Er, well, ah Hutt crime lords such as Jabba wouldn't invest in large and medium base capital ships because it would be an inefficient use of capital. Building warships requiring large credit outlays and dedicated crews ties up a large amount of capital for long periods compared to the petty bribery and extortion that is the modus operandi of criminal operations organized around the movement of goods. If we look at Chapter 17 of Thomas Piketty's Capital A Long Time Ago, In a Galaxy Far, Far Away entitled "Market Forces and Capital Flows Among Outer Rim Criminal Organizations" we can clearly see that Hutt cartels amassed a large credit reserve precisely by NOT risking their own credits building ships and installations but by risking the credits of the traders, merchants, and smugglers whom were controlled thru extortion, bribery, threat of force, or outright slavery. This is compared to the older, less nimble Black Sun model which focused on the construction and sustained operation of black market centers. This difference in organizational structure created by..." OMG WHO CARES.

So what MECHANICS would interest you enough to see a new faction? Let's TRY TO NOT SAY "NO" FIRST. Stop trying to stop the discussion, just throw out an example. In summary, Saying NO = NOT THINKING = BORING.

Examples:
Princess Pyrrhic Victory (25 Pts) - In order for opponent to land a Crit opponent must SPEND a defense token.

Blackmail Flottila (33 Pts) Unique - If ship isn't fired upon before it activates, may attack at long range with 3 black dice