The rebels are operating in secret bases across the Galaxy. The Hutts could amass a fleet, but then would be killed when their not secret base is bombarded from orbit.

If you are going to do a third faction Eleodie Maracavanya's pirate fleet may be the way to go.

I hope they send Thrawn to wild space to build the First Order. Then you can bting in the lost fleet story line but have the storyline between Thrawn and Elodie in Wild space.

4 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

The rebels are operating in secret bases across the Galaxy. The Hutts could amass a fleet, but then would be killed when their not secret base is bombarded from orbit.

Ah you mean like Alderaan? or Mon Cal? they use the ship yards at Mon Cal to retrofit their cruise liners into warships, and yet, it got bombarded and they continued to do so.

Hutts control planets in multiple systems, they more than have the means to do as the Rebels did.

5 hours ago, Carvin Marvin said:

But to what benefit would the crime organisations gain from having a fleet?

A fleet of warships has one purpose. To exert control over a region of space.

The Rebellion has a reason to expend the resources to have a fleet. The Empire does as well. The crime organisations? Sure their leaders are interested in power, but not really political power. A fleet needs resources, manpower and even worse will attract attention from those who actually do want to control those regions.

A few star fighters and maybe a corvette sized ship or two really isn't a threat to Imperial control. A single Star Destroyer would be able to deal with them if they get a bit too frisky. Start to build a fleet, and the possibility increases that an Imperial officer who has enough authority, and maybe ambition, might wonder why they are building a fleet and decide to apply an Imperial sledgehammer to the question before they need to explain it to someone less forgiving.

The risk of having a real fleet is more than the reward for those organisations.

Well - not that I like S&V as a faction in a fleet game, but crime lords in fiction are notorious for having big egos and aspirations even if they are impractical.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

Ah you mean like Alderaan? or Mon Cal? they use the ship yards at Mon Cal to retrofit their cruise liners into warships, and yet, it got bombarded and they continued to do so.

Hutts control planets in multiple systems, they more than have the means to do as the Rebels did.

`That's really poor story telling right there, kinda makes you wonder how bad the Empire can be.
Well, except for Alderaan. Fixed that problem.

On 4/5/2017 at 10:10 AM, TheEasternKing said:

Ah you mean like Alderaan? or Mon Cal? they use the ship yards at Mon Cal to retrofit their cruise liners into warships, and yet, it got bombarded and they continued to do so.

Hutts control planets in multiple systems, they more than have the means to do as the Rebels did.

Not to mention that the outer rim is generally a lawless area that the Empire never tried to control. There was no Imperial presence on Tatooine before the first act of Ep. IV, that was Hutt territory. It was a fight the Empire didn't need or want. Leia tried to point the Empire in the direction of Dantooine, but since it was so far out of the way, it wasn't even worth destroying.

"My Lord, there are so many uncharted settlements. It could be smugglers. It could be... "

Even the Rebel Alliance couldn't go toe-to-toe with the Empire on a fleet basis, just look at the disparity during the battle of Endor. So, there's plenty of opportunity for some pirates or mercenaries to amass a small fleet of their own. The Alliance had to start somewhere, just like a third faction.

4 minutes ago, thestag said:

Not to mention that the outer rim is generally a lawless area that the Empire never tried to control. There was no Imperial presence on Tatooine before the first act of Ep. IV, that was Hutt territory. It was a fight the Empire didn't need or want. Leia tried to point the Empire in the direction of Dantooine, but since it was so far out of the way, it wasn't even worth destroying.

"My Lord, there are so many uncharted settlements. It could be smugglers. It could be... "

Even the Rebel Alliance couldn't go toe-to-toe with the Empire on a fleet basis, just look at the disparity during the battle of Endor. So, there's plenty of opportunity for some pirates or mercenaries to amass a small fleet of their own. The Alliance had to start somewhere, just like a third faction.

Maybe the Hutts never amassed a fleet because the Empire would see it as a threat? It's not like the Hutts were in open rebellion against the Empire and attacking them. Plus, didn't the Hutts have trade agreements with the Empire?

Just some thoughts.

I vote for a Scum faction.

Reasonable inclusions:
Trade Federation ships (refitted/refurbished/whatever)
Hondo Onaka's Weequay Flying Saucers
Hutt C-Roc Cruiser
Dreadnaughts
Hutt Cartel ships
Rogues allowed to be used in Imp/Reb or Scum
Corvettes and Neb-Bs (with modified stats)

The rebellion is comprised primarily of modified ships (i.e. ALL of their large capital ships) and the relative cost of a blockade runner couldn't be outside the range of the Hutts or Black Sun. Its reasonable enough if you think of it as a third way. Imperials are strength, Rebels are agility, and Scum are intelligence/subterfuge. The Scum faction may be weaker in combat but may be able to avoid confrontation and escape damage better than the Reb/Imps who are more traditional navies.

Not a pressing issue but I'd eventually like to see this for variety.

On 4/5/2017 at 7:28 AM, TheEasternKing said:

You telling me something like the Black Sun organisation or the Hutt syndicates cannot do the same thing?

Could, yes. But you don't get to be a giant, successful crime syndicate by burning money.

A capitol ship, even a small one, is expensive as ****. Imagine how much your car and your house, and your household appliances break, and how expensive it is to fix them, and then realize that one deck of the smallest capital ship in Armada is three to five times the size of that, and that some of the things that might break will turn the entire ship into an expanding ball of plasma if you let the repairs slide for a week. I would imagine that the operating costs of a VSD, for one month, would bankrupt any pirate gang.

As well, they don't need capital ships. Maybe corvettes; but armed freighters is more their cup of tea. Any ship that can't carry a fair bit a cargo is a cost, rather than a profit. (exceptions made for specialty types - small amounts of cargo can be quite profitable if the cargo is illegal, meaning that hiding the cargo is more important than carrying a great deal of it, or if it needs to be somewhere FAST, in which case speed is more important than quantity. But the general principle stands) No business organization in the galaxy can build a fleet that can stand up to the Empire. The Rebellion just barely manages it, but they are not making money doing it, and they don't stand up to the Empire as much as hide from it.

The only argument for Scum having capital ships would be for two organizations, such as Black Sun and the Hutt Cartel to go to war with each other, or with the Rebellion. If a fleet of Pirate ships attacked and destroyed an Imperial task force, the Empire would send over a handful of ISD, and clean them right up. If the pirates wanted to fight a group of Rebels, it would be easier to just tip off the Empire. If they went to war with each other, they wouldn't use capitol ships; that's an expensive piece of equipment that might get destroyed, and they would be using it to destroy expensive pieces of equipment that they were trying to gain possession of.

Scum can stick to starfighters, and armed freighters.

27 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

Could, yes. But you don't get to be a giant, successful crime syndicate by burning money.

A capitol ship, even a small one, is expensive as ****. Imagine how much your car and your house, and your household appliances break, and how expensive it is to fix them, and then realize that one deck of the smallest capital ship in Armada is three to five times the size of that, and that some of the things that might break will turn the entire ship into an expanding ball of plasma if you let the repairs slide for a week. I would imagine that the operating costs of a VSD, for one month, would bankrupt any pirate gang.

As well, they don't need capital ships. Maybe corvettes; but armed freighters is more their cup of tea. Any ship that can't carry a fair bit a cargo is a cost, rather than a profit. (exceptions made for specialty types - small amounts of cargo can be quite profitable if the cargo is illegal, meaning that hiding the cargo is more important than carrying a great deal of it, or if it needs to be somewhere FAST, in which case speed is more important than quantity. But the general principle stands) No business organization in the galaxy can build a fleet that can stand up to the Empire. The Rebellion just barely manages it, but they are not making money doing it, and they don't stand up to the Empire as much as hide from it.

The only argument for Scum having capital ships would be for two organizations, such as Black Sun and the Hutt Cartel to go to war with each other, or with the Rebellion. If a fleet of Pirate ships attacked and destroyed an Imperial task force, the Empire would send over a handful of ISD, and clean them right up. If the pirates wanted to fight a group of Rebels, it would be easier to just tip off the Empire. If they went to war with each other, they wouldn't use capitol ships; that's an expensive piece of equipment that might get destroyed, and they would be using it to destroy expensive pieces of equipment that they were trying to gain possession of.

Scum can stick to starfighters, and armed freighters.

And yet the rebellion can afford it.

And yet Mon Calamari can afford to not only build super massive cruise liners, it can then afford to retrofit them into warships, get bombarded and continue to build warships, and that is a single planet.

All I am seeing is nonsensical reasons why they "cannot" if the rebellion could steal capital ships and repair them with the bare minimum of resources to get up and running and then gain support, you think a galaxy spanning criminal organisation cannot muster the same kind of resources??? Bounty Hunters fly some of the most advanced and tricked out ships in the SW universe and they get all that stuff stolen and fitted by criminals.

And the Empire aka galactic tyranny is just a large scale criminal entity, or do you think everyone was doing what palpatine wanted because they all loved him?? they were extorted from, stolen from, enslaved, suffered massive punitive responses against their planets, experimented on, you name anything criminals get up to in SW and Palpatine was doing the exact same thing just on a larger scale.

IF the Hutts decided they wanted to police the systems they run, to legitimise themselves, which is something ALL criminals eventually do, they could quite easily build space stations, cruisers and the rest and have a fleet capable of defending their systems if they so chose to do so, and they have not to date because they have not needed too, no one cares enough to go force the hutts to behave nicely and uphold the galactic behavioral rules the senate dictate to the rest of them.

For example the drug trade on our planet is worth around $350,000,000,000,000 a year, profit, and that is just drugs, not guns, not services, not trafficking, not prostitution, not gambling, not extortion, not fraud, that figure for drugs alone is a monstrous amount of money, the UK collected £660 billion last year in tax receipts, so you can well imagine if we add in every other criminal enterprise the amount would be mind blowing-ly staggering and that is just ONE planet, in SW we have a galaxy with billions of planets, you vastly underestimate the amounts of credits being generated by these criminal cartels, and as we know, credits can buy you just about anything, anywhere.

15 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

you think a galaxy spanning criminal organisation cannot muster the same kind of resources?

Of course they can. They could also pile up a hundred million credits and set them on fire. But I can't think of any good reason they would do either one of those things. A criminal enterprise is a business. They exist to make money, not to throw money away.

17 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

And yet Mon Calamari can afford to not only build super massive cruise liners

Yea, that what we call "running a business." You build super massive cruise liners, then sell them to cruise lines in exchange for money, which you use to build more ships.

19 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Bounty Hunters fly some of the most advanced and tricked out ships in the SW universe and they get all that stuff stolen and fitted by criminals.

Private business owners buy the best tools they can from private business owners who sell those tools. Everyone involved is turning a profit.

20 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

And the Empire aka galactic tyranny is just a large scale criminal entity, or do you think everyone was doing what palpatine wanted because they all loved him?

I think you'll find that they were actually a government. The difference between one and the other is sometimes difficult to determine, but if you want to think of it as such, the Empire builds capitol ships in order to do all the extorting, stealing, enslaving, and punitive actioning, which, wait for it, they profit from.

22 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

IF the Hutts decided they wanted to police the systems they run, to legitimise themselves, which is something ALL criminals eventually do, they could quite easily build space stations, cruisers and the rest

Of course they could. And they would, if they thought they would profit from it. But they don't; police don't require capital ships, they require flotillas at best. Anything bigger would be a waste of money.

25 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

and have a fleet capable of defending their systems if they so chose to do so,

The only people they need to "defend" from would be other criminals, who also don't have capital ships, or the Empire, for which there aren't enough capital ships in the galaxy.

36 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

credits can buy you just about anything, anywhere.

Again, I didn't say they couldn't afford the ships. I'm saying they wouldn't spend the money on the ships.

The big crime syndicates would not need anything larger than CR-90s because other pirates would be using fighters or patrol craft. Just a modified corvette and some fighters are all they need. The pirates would also use old fighters too as that is what they could muster.

1 hour ago, JgzMan said:

Of course they can. They could also pile up a hundred million credits and set them on fire. But I can't think of any good reason they would do either one of those things. A criminal enterprise is a business. They exist to make money, not to throw money away.

Yea, that what we call "running a business." You build super massive cruise liners, then sell them to cruise lines in exchange for money, which you use to build more ships.

Private business owners buy the best tools they can from private business owners who sell those tools. Everyone involved is turning a profit.

I think you'll find that they were actually a government. The difference between one and the other is sometimes difficult to determine, but if you want to think of it as such, the Empire builds capitol ships in order to do all the extorting, stealing, enslaving, and punitive actioning, which, wait for it, they profit from.

Of course they could. And they would, if they thought they would profit from it. But they don't; police don't require capital ships, they require flotillas at best. Anything bigger would be a waste of money.

The only people they need to "defend" from would be other criminals, who also don't have capital ships, or the Empire, for which there aren't enough capital ships in the galaxy.

Again, I didn't say they couldn't afford the ships. I'm saying they wouldn't spend the money on the ships.

Old Cannon Prince Xizor wanted to topple Palpatine & Vader and take over the whole shebang, he was the leader of the Black Sun.

You think somehow no one else can decide they want to be a despotic tyrant? that it is limited to force users? that only "empire's or senates for the galactic harmony happy unicorns." are the only people, or collection of shared interests that can see the benefit of a fleet? or they are the only ones that can afford to do so? their is literally anything can happen and you're pigeonholing everyone into some sort of sorry typecast existence where nothing can change, just the empire, well technically there is no empire anymore palpatine and vader are dead, then we got the first order...just more of the same tripe and tired trope, just even more ineffective than the Palpatine empire.

Perhaps it is time for something new to happen in the SW universe, after all it is a **** big place.

1 minute ago, TallGiraffe said:

The big crime syndicates would not need anything larger than CR-90s because other pirates would be using fighters or patrol craft. Just a modified corvette and some fighters are all they need. The pirates would also use old fighters too as that is what they could muster.

Really? they don't need them because other pirates would be using small stuff? what happens when someone comes calling with something bigger?

And pirates can only muster "old" stuff, we already ascertained that is a fallacy that is not supported by the facts, criminals, successful ones have access to the kind of funds that enables them to do pretty much what they want, and they have access to the criminals that steal tech, parts, ships, engineers and everything else you can possibly imagine.

A crime syndicate in Star Wars sends a CR90 with mining equipment and droids to operate them to a unimportant, out of the way, un patrolled system or wild space, ( it's a GALAXY, there must be a lot of uninhabited systems, or just dead planets floating around) then spends many years building ships, droids and shipyards.

cr90 reaches a single planet.

cr90 with small amount of equipment slowly mines resources and uses them to build more mining equipment and droids, speeding up the mining and building process.

after reaching optimal mining, the resources are put into building a shipyard.

the shipyard then builds more cr90s with mining equipment to mine other planets and asteroids in the system, as well as transports to move these res.

now with a huge influx of resources, the shipyard produces a second shipyard

both shipyards produce cr90s with a focus on defending the system, along with Orbital defence Platforms which it spreads around the system and probes with sensors as a early warning system for approaching enemies.

there we go, for a relatively small amount of money, a criminal organisation now has a base of operations in a defendable system, probably on the edge of wild space, with the ability to sell resources and build more ships, all they have to do is be patient for a couple of years.....

so yes, as unlikely as it is considering how things operate in the Star Wars universe, a criminal organisation (anyone, really) could amass a fleet, having the crew needed to operate the ship however could be a problem.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

The big crime syndicates would not need anything larger than CR-90s because other pirates would be using fighters or patrol craft. Just a modified corvette and some fighters are all they need. The pirates would also use old fighters too as that is what they could muster.

At most I could give some pirates a light cruiser equivalent for attacking some of the larger cargo freighters.

6 hours ago, WhatsArmadaWithYou said:

I vote for a Scum faction.

Reasonable inclusions:
Trade Federation ships (refitted/refurbished/whatever)
Hondo Onaka's Weequay Flying Saucers
Hutt C-Roc Cruiser
Dreadnaughts
Hutt Cartel ships
Rogues allowed to be used in Imp/Reb or Scum
Corvettes and Neb-Bs (with modified stats)

The rebellion is comprised primarily of modified ships (i.e. ALL of their large capital ships) and the relative cost of a blockade runner couldn't be outside the range of the Hutts or Black Sun. Its reasonable enough if you think of it as a third way. Imperials are strength, Rebels are agility, and Scum are intelligence/subterfuge. The Scum faction may be weaker in combat but may be able to avoid confrontation and escape damage better than the Reb/Imps who are more traditional navies.

Not a pressing issue but I'd eventually like to see this for variety.

So I'm failing to see how this doesn't just compound the perceived problem that some players already have with Flotillas, where they have no compulsion to engage the enemy fleet. It sounds like that's the sum total of your fleet design philosophy.

Look, in the end the Rebel faction IS the Scumm and Villainy faction.

15 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Look, in the end the Rebel faction IS the Scumm and Villainy faction.

Exactly. If you want a "scum and villainy" faction, the only thing you need to do is use Rebel ships that aren't exclusively Rebellion, such as the MC80 or the X-Wing, A-Wing, B-Wing or E-Wing.

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Exactly. If you want a "scum and villainy" faction, the only thing you need to do is use Rebel ships that aren't exclusively Rebellion, such as the MC80 or the X-Wing, A-Wing, B-Wing or E-Wing.

Just paint your ships in Black Sun / Hutt colours and bobs your uncle, Scumm fleet.

5 hours ago, chr335 said:

At most I could give some pirates a light cruiser equivalent for attacking some of the larger cargo freighters.

Even that would probably be overkill. After all the point of piracy is to make money. Shooting holes in a cargo ship carries the risk of destroying the cargo you are trying to steal. If something can fight back against a corvette sized ship then it is more economical to go after a softer target you can intimidate into surrendering or you need to band together with other pirates to split the prize.

And a prize that valuable is more likely to be escorted by something far more dangerous.

Despite what movies might show you pirates really want to have nothing to do with a real warship. Those things play for keeps. That's going to be just as true in Star Wars as it was/is in our world.

So uh... the CR 90 is a Corellian ship. They make alot of ships. Theyre part of the number of shipyards that makes ships for the empire and everyone else. We know theres atleast a couple of these.

We know that many worlds gave ships to the separatist rebellion during the clone wars. They didnt suddenly lose the ability to make ships- they might be under scrutiny and restrictions, but ships are still being built, regularly.

We know that combat capable ships are owned by mining consortium's and guilds. Weve seen that in rebels if nothing else. We know that vessels the size of a CR90 or a Hammerhead are *not* uncommon.

We know Dodonna had several Nebulons at his disposal- how did he get them? Were they *all* stolen from the empire or did a planet own them and he took them with him? IIRC its the latter.

There is absolutely no reason the Hutt worlds would not have capital ships for system patrol and peacekeeping. An individual crime element might not, but they as a whole sure as heck do. Others will as well. Im more of the mind that a lack of system patrol ships is the exception, rather than the rule; even in the days of the empire and particularly for worlds of any importance.

What reason do scum factions have to challenge the Empire?

The Rebel Alliance to restore the republic is engaged in an active war to unseat the totalitarian regime that overthrew the old Republic. They have reasons to fight. Why would a pirate faction collect enough arms' to challenge the Imperial Navy's Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers?

They don't. Pirates and scum faction do their utmost to avoid attention so they can strike with fewer resources to hoarde bigger gains and not attract the Empire which would annihilate their petty little cheap holdings.

It's one thing if you're a few-man buisness run out of one starship hunting down bounties, or a smuggling ring with a couple of corvettes and some starfighters to run protection. But it's an entirely different thing to buy thousand-man crewed ships to do some serious fighting with them. What purpose would you have? If you amass enough guns to stop the Empire once, do you have the resources to stop them again? and again? What about the Rebellion... if you have the firepower, why haven't you joined forces to fight the Empire?

And if you're doing all of this why aren't you visible enough in the new canon for other characters to comment on as an entirely different faction in the GCW power politics?

This is why I could never get onboard with a scum faction thematically. When an Imperial patrol comes knocking with the intent to insepct, scum cuts and runs to setup elsewhere instead of standing and fighting. And if they tussle with the Rebellion, it's better to sneak in and hit fast with a cheaper, smaller strike team than a grand fleet fighting the Empire turbolaser-for-turbolaser. They have no use for propaganda victories, which is why the Rebellion would amass their ships and confront the Empire (highlighted in the Rebellion boardgame). So why do it?

Mechanically, there are a few reasons not to go with a scum faction there either. This anything-goes mentality allows them to break more rules than the Rebel and Imperial players do, possibly shaking out a great combo that puts the plucky legends/scummy faction ahead of the Imperial/Rebel factions... so you'll see nothing but scum lists in play (Like 3 Jumpmasters). In the end it'll bring the game closer to a trashed state, if the entire purpose of scum is to be the off-the-wall combo faction but have enough substance to be a legitimate fighting force.

If I were designing, I'd have them as independents hire-able by both sides, but also fielded seperately. If they're designed to be added into other fleets, flying them on their own could be done, but not recommended. Or only recommended for those ace armada players who are, I dunno, undefeated in their local meta?

Why do they have to be gunning for war with the Empire? You dont have to be trying to go to war in order to have a Navy. Its something you maintain in case you need it.

A couple of armed patrol ships, a heavy cruiser, and half a dozen larger armed freighters is a 400pt armada game.

So if the Empire comes in to enforce its will on your mining consortium, etc your ships are already there. If the rebellion is trying to steal yer ****- your ships are already there.

They dont have to be looking for a fight to end up in one.

And FFG is actually really good about learning from their mistakes and taking steps to fix it. They dont have to break core mechanics or have overpowered combos to be a viable third fleet. Fear of potential problems is not a concrete objection when ways to prevent or fix those problems are readily available. There is no reason that Scum- or systems/cartels/guilds- couldnt have a focus on fighters and small ships/flotillas without being full of shenanigans. Small ships and fighters have *plenty* of depth and oomph to make them a viable threat.

34 minutes ago, Grey Mage said:

Why do they have to be gunning for war with the Empire? You dont have to be trying to go to war in order to have a Navy. Its something you maintain in case you need it.

A couple of armed patrol ships, a heavy cruiser, and half a dozen larger armed freighters is a 400pt armada game.

So if the Empire comes in to enforce its will on your mining consortium, etc your ships are already there. If the rebellion is trying to steal yer ****- your ships are already there.

They dont have to be looking for a fight to end up in one.

And FFG is actually really good about learning from their mistakes and taking steps to fix it. They dont have to break core mechanics or have overpowered combos to be a viable third fleet. Fear of potential problems is not a concrete objection when ways to prevent or fix those problems are readily available. There is no reason that Scum- or systems/cartels/guilds- couldnt have a focus on fighters and small ships/flotillas without being full of shenanigans. Small ships and fighters have *plenty* of depth and oomph to make them a viable threat.

I don't care what you say. If a group of pirates with nothing but what you described sees 2 or even 3 Imperial Class Star Destroyers, they are ******* running.