...Like someone who thinks Palpatine is OP but still plays Palpatine+aces.

Wouldn't you be a hypocrite if you thought Palp Aces was too strong and didn't play it. Who says, "That's too good. I better not play it."?

A very large number of people across a very large number of games. A lot of people refuse to use things they believe grant them an advantage they see as unfair.

" Roll to attack the hardest to hit target, so you can miss, then use Dengar to re roll hits to get a blank"

If you can't see that breaks the spirit of the way X wing should play, then we shall just agree to disagree, just hope I don't run into any of these " interesting lists" at the Yavin open.

You'll run into a lot of them at any competitive event.

I'm still not seeing how this "breaks the the spirit of the game" though. You'll have to explain what you mean. If you can't then what you actually mean is you personally dislike it.

YV-666 with at least a cannon, Gunner and IG-88D Crew paired with IG-88B(usually with a tractor beam).

YV-666 attacks with its primary with intent to miss. If it does, both IG-88B(through D crew) and Gunner trigger. The triggers stack, controlling player decides the order, so you trigger IG-88B first and fire your YV-666's cannon. Whether that hits or not, the gunner trigger is still in the queue and resolves an you get to make a primary attack.

Typically the YV is Bossk for his ability to push extra damage through and you also take Dengar in the last crew spot for rerolls. IG-88B fires first with tractor against your intended target to either tag it or force tokens, can follow up with its own cannon if it misses. You have Bossk fire at the target he's most likely to miss and use Dengar to try to reroll any hits to blanks, then because IG-88B and Gunner are both new attacks you switch to the target you actually want off the triggers and still have Dengar for mods on both shots. OP's inclusion of Zuckuss was a mistake, as there's no room.

Why doesn't the attack prevention trigger at the end of either Gunner effect (you may not perform another attack this round) kill the other attack? Both trigger simultaneously, you choose the order to resolve one, fully resolving one prevents you from then resolving the other. In every other instance where an effect allowing you to make an attack and a "you may not attack again this round" effect come into conflict the prohibition wins out.

Okay I have been to plenty of competitive events but never played anyone who has tried using a list like this.

Yes I personally dislike it as I personally dislike fortressing.

In my opinion the spirit of the game is two squads trying to outmanoure each other, tactically picking off weak points in their opponents list and yes even building clever synergys within squads.

I think this goes beyond clever tactical synergies and is just a blatant exploitation of multiple card effects and a rule loop hole, is it going to win worlds probably not, will it break the game, no probably not.

Is it against the spirit of the game, Yes I think it is.

Will FFG probably FAQ it, yes they probably will( they are pretty good at sorting out this kind of thing)

Is it against the spirit of the game, Yes I think it is.

It's a ship attacking twice. Is Corran Horn against the spirit of the game?

Having two Gunner effects on the same ship is far less extreme than Dengaroo as far as card combos doing strange things goes.

You want to fire with both a primary AND a secondary EVERYTIME?

Try a /D Tie defender, and you can even fly more than one of these in the same list...

Is it against the spirit of the game, Yes I think it is.

It's a ship attacking twice. Is Corran Horn against the spirit of the game

Having two Gunner effects on the same ship is far less extreme than Dengaroo as far as card combos doing strange things goes.

No Corran Horn shooting twice is fine( I think you are being facetious now)

Less extreme in being competitive, more extreme in bending the rules

From a game play perspective, these two ships are literally the only two that can be used to make this work. Kill IG88B, combo stops. Get behind Bossk, (or just out of arc,) combo stops.

From a canon or story perspective, I think its a neat interaction from a ship with multiple crew, working in unison, to defeat an enemy. Does that really break the spirit of the game?

Is it against the spirit of the game, Yes I think it is.

It's a ship attacking twice. Is Corran Horn against the spirit of the game

Having two Gunner effects on the same ship is far less extreme than Dengaroo as far as card combos doing strange things goes.

No Corran Horn shooting twice is fine( I think you are being facetious now)

He is being facetious - Corran Horn's pilot ability is a single ability (not a combination of abilities) which explicitly states you may attack twice (in different game phases), and also provides a downside with a negative game effect the following turn. There's no parallels to be drawn with the scenario in this topic.

The Gunner/IG88B loophole is simply an oversight created by two cards that were never originally intended to interact.

Kudos to whoever it was who actually managed to find a use for IG88D, though. However exploitative (and temporary) it may be.

Can't work out why people are getting their panties in a bunch about a SPECIFIC card combo that can ONLY be put on 1 ship in the game. Especially when that combo requires you to miss a shot and when you DON'T miss, 6 of those 9 points of crew didn't do anything that round (you might want Dengar to re-roll a hit to make it easier to miss).

IG-88 B was available at Worlds.... don't remember seeing any party buses in the top 16... plenty of Dengaroo and Tie D's though.. heck a Tie D list with 3 Tie D titles can shoot twice EVERY round, hit or miss...not broken though..

But what we're talking about here are tournaments. You can play any way you like casually.

Assuming you stay within the rules, you can also play any list you like at a tournament. I don't think the difference is that big; it appears that the game is still being played for fun, casual or non-casual. And let's not forget that at tournaments, there is very little really at stake. Some acrylic tokens, an alternate art card, an ugly trophy, and one's pride/ego, but that's about it.

In a general sense, I would advise against playing a list that you can't really get behind. Don't play it competitively (which is an odd expression - I can be very competitive during what is known as 'casual'!) if you don't like the list in all its facets, I'd say.

For example, I don't like Palpatine because I think he's a nasty fellow. So I don't play him at a tournament. Anyone has yet to sue me for this.

Is it against the spirit of the game, Yes I think it is.

It's a ship attacking twice. Is Corran Horn against the spirit of the game

Having two Gunner effects on the same ship is far less extreme than Dengaroo as far as card combos doing strange things goes.

No Corran Horn shooting twice is fine( I think you are being facetious now)

Less extreme in being competitive, more extreme in bending the rules

No bending involved. It's just the effect of Gunner, a Wave 2 card, triggering twice. IG-88B could do it with a crew slot. Intentionally missing with Gunner for other benefits has been advocated in official FFG articles too, namely the Defending The Lambda Shuttle one.

Completely legal, not particularly complex and not extraordinarily powerful either. Dengaroo is a far more extreme contortions of the game mechanics.

And if anyone brings up "going against design intent" I'll bring up the blocking fiasco from Wave 4.

Can we acknowledge that people play games for different reasons? Some want to test their skills tactically, others want to build new and interesting lists, some just want to hang out. Just because you like to play a certain way doesn't make you a "****" unless you're being insulting or cheating. If this list is legal, there's nothing about that breaks any "spirit of the game" or ruins X-Wing.

EDIT: spelling

I agree people like to play the game in different ways but

" Roll to attack the hardest to hit target, so you can miss, then use Dengar to re roll hits to get a blank"

If you can't see that breaks the spirit of the way X wing should play, then we shall just agree to disagree, just hope I don't run into any of these " interesting lists" at the Yavin open.

But this isn't new at all. When IG-88 was first released, I used Accuracy Corrector + Autoblaster + IG-88B on several occasions. The idea is that you ideally want to get 3 uncancellable hits, so if you only get 1 or 2 on the first roll, you cancel them. Because there is a 'may' in front of the part where you add two hits, you can choose to not add two hits, thus triggering IG-88B's pilot ability and allowing you to attack again with the Autoblaster. If that roll is poor, too, you just cancel it and add 2 hits that cannot be cancelled.

I can see where you're coming from. I got into X-Wing for the theme, but I also play many other games, and digging into the technicalities of what is and is not possible within the rules can be very exciting. I see no problem with what's going on in this most recent list. It's clever and it follows the rules as written.

As for intentional misses with Gunner, imagine a pilot who purposely maneuvers his ship such that his attack will not be likely to hit, but he maneuvers in a way that makes his gunner more likely to hit. I can totally see something like that happening.

i feel bad for other ppl with the "red c3po" avatar bc i just sort of dont read those posts any more. any1 else do this?

if only this combo had been devised by Paul Heaver, we would have a good reason to call this variant the "Pharty Bus."

It's a cute combo, but it doesn't work as per the new timing chart:

Step 9: Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Player with initiative chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve
ii. If no ability was chosen in step (i), the other player chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve
iii. Any abilities that were not chosen, are added to the step 9 of the next attack

Essentially you're limited to one extra attack ability per attack. So you can't trigger both IG88B and Gunner off the same missed attack.

Although you can still shoot, miss, IG88B, miss, then gunner. That's a pretty big waste of points though for essentially one damaging attack.

In conclusion, if you want to shoot multiple times with ships, just play TIE/Ds.

Is it against the spirit of the game, Yes I think it is.

It's a ship attacking twice. Is Corran Horn against the spirit of the game?

Having two Gunner effects on the same ship is far less extreme than Dengaroo as far as card combos doing strange things goes.

Finally. Glad I'm not the only one who thought that way. Seriously, For all the weaknesses one has to endure in order to make use of this YV-666 shenanigans, Dengaroo takes much less effort to run successfully.

It's a cute combo, but it doesn't work as per the new timing chart:

Step 9: Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Player with initiative chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

ii. If no ability was chosen in step (i), the other player chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

iii. Any abilities that were not chosen, are added to the step 9 of the next attack

Essentially you're limited to one extra attack ability per attack. So you can't trigger both IG88B and Gunner off the same missed attack.

Although you can still shoot, miss, IG88B, miss, then gunner. That's a pretty big waste of points though for essentially one damaging attack.

In conclusion, if you want to shoot multiple times with ships, just play TIE/Ds.

The original Reddit thread that brought this combo to light a few days ago included a Frank Brooks email ruling saying it DOES work.

There are a few things that are blowing my mind with people's statements. It's not a loophole, it's a game mechanic. It triggers just like every other mechanic that uses an if statement. People are saying it's not in the spirit of the game, I would rather throw this into the competitive mix than face the same Palp+X every game. I say kudos on creating a competitive, non Palp list. There are way more OP lists out there, but that's already been mentioned.

I for one enjoy these kind of lists. It shows an understanding for the game, but also a desire to think outside the box and not regurgitate the same rubbish over and over.

using upgrades is against the spirit of the game

It's a cute combo, but it doesn't work as per the new timing chart:

Step 9: Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Player with initiative chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

ii. If no ability was chosen in step (i), the other player chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

iii. Any abilities that were not chosen, are added to the step 9 of the next attack

Essentially you're limited to one extra attack ability per attack. So you can't trigger both IG88B and Gunner off the same missed attack.

Although you can still shoot, miss, IG88B, miss, then gunner. That's a pretty big waste of points though for essentially one damaging attack.

In conclusion, if you want to shoot multiple times with ships, just play TIE/Ds.

The original Reddit thread that brought this combo to light a few days ago included a Frank Brooks email ruling saying it DOES work.

Ah thanks, that's what I was missing. Does that override the FAQ? It's pretty cut and dry in the FAQ, which is an official competitive play document, whereas the email is not.

It sounds to me like Frank Brooks has tried to clarify a rules question, without realising it's already been covered in the latest FAQ. He is only human (as far as we know).

Even if that's not the case I still don't see why an email (even from Frank Brooks) would override the FAQ when it clearly doesn't allow the combo to work.

i feel bad for other ppl with the "red c3po" avatar bc i just sort of dont read those posts any more. any1 else do this?

Manage>Manage ignore preferences.

Can we acknowledge that people play games for different reasons? Some want to test their skills tactically, others want to build new and interesting lists, some just want to hang out. Just because you like to play a certain way doesn't make you a "****" unless you're being insulting or cheating. If this list is legal, there's nothing about that breaks any "spirit of the game" or ruins X-Wing.

EDIT: spelling

I agree people like to play the game in different ways but

" Roll to attack the hardest to hit target, so you can miss, then use Dengar to re roll hits to get a blank"

If you can't see that breaks the spirit of the way X wing should play, then we shall just agree to disagree, just hope I don't run into any of these " interesting lists" at the Yavin open.

"Spirit of the game" you can have at home. At competetive its all about winning tricks.

(But don't mess spirit of the game with sportsmaship - the latter is not discussed here)

Out of curiosity, why not go this route?

IG88B & Moralo

I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.

I think for IG-666 Moralo really is the way, however do not use Dengar when Bossk is lightyears better!

I slightly disagree on Bossk crew > Dengar crew in that instance. Yes your IGB and Gunner shots are better, BUT you're chancing the random hit through if you can't use Dengar crew to guarantee the miss on the first shot. Those IGB and Gunner shots are less likely to happen when you don't have Dengar to make you miss your first shot.

Good point, it isn't as clearly cut as I thought. And I kind of missed you were sticking to the Gunner shenanigans (whom I really believe aren't worth it). Morallo with Zuckuss, Bossk, IG-88 just is so synergistic when you build IG-88 B for survival. Stack stress to no end and still have full mods. Still no Dengaroo, of course...

Lol yeah, disagree with the guy with a proven track record with the list.

Oh no, a different viewpoint, silence him! Sorry I don't remember how every person on this forum does and what lists they play? Its not like Bossk is an upgrade whos existence you could easily forget about with how few places there are for it...

It's a cute combo, but it doesn't work as per the new timing chart:

Step 9: Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Player with initiative chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

ii. If no ability was chosen in step (i), the other player chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

iii. Any abilities that were not chosen, are added to the step 9 of the next attack

Essentially you're limited to one extra attack ability per attack. So you can't trigger both IG88B and Gunner off the same missed attack.

Although you can still shoot, miss, IG88B, miss, then gunner. That's a pretty big waste of points though for essentially one damaging attack.

In conclusion, if you want to shoot multiple times with ships, just play TIE/Ds.

It works specifically because of what you quoted

• Both IG-B and gunner trigger off of the missed attack
• In step 9 of the original attack you choose IG-B in step 9.i
• Since Gunner was not chosen then according to 9.iii it is then added to step 9 of the next attack which is the IG-B attack
• You resolve the IG-B attack
• In step 9 of the IG-B attack you choose in 9.i gunner since it was added to this attack
• You resolve the gunner attack

Typically all this nested stuff is avoided via gunner disallowing further attacks but IG-B doesn't have that clause and so as long as gunner is the last attack you make in the chain it works fine

It's a cute combo, but it doesn't work as per the new timing chart:

Step 9: Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

i. Player with initiative chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

ii. If no ability was chosen in step (i), the other player chooses 1 of his abilities to resolve

iii. Any abilities that were not chosen, are added to the step 9 of the next attack

I think we are going to need an FAQ on this at some point. The reason being is that there is some abiguity in step 9iii of the timing chart when it says add the ability that was not chosen to step 9 of the next attack.

Does this mean that the condition required to satisfy gunner (ie a missed attack) remain satisfied when carried over to step 9 of an attack that hits? Alternatively, as gunner reads:

After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You cannot perform another attack this round.

Is the condition not satisfied because you have not immediately performed a primary weapon attack after the original attack missed (there being a cannon attack in between which hit) and therefore missed that oppertunity to use gunner off the first shot by step 9 of the successful cannon attack.

People are going to have varying opinions on this (which will probably depend on the extent to which you place significance on the word immediately) but you can make a cogent argument on both sides.

Ultimately, in the absence of any other guidance I would say that the email from FFG suggests legality for the mean time. Although we have seen in the past that FAQs have gone against emails from the creators so its more than possible it will be FAQ'd the other way.

If instead of Dengar, you use a hotshot copilot?

You can't modify the initial shoot to miss, but the defender must spend a focus if he can... And with the other two shoots is defenseless.

If instead of Dengar, you use a hotshot copilot?

You can't modify the initial shoot to miss, but the defender must spend a focus if he can... And with the other two shoots is defenseless.

The problem is with not having Dengar, you are nearly required now to always take a focus or TL action to modify 1 single shot out of your possible 3, making Engine fairly useless (at least in my list). We tried the Hotcop combo in some early game testing and it just didn't have the consistency needed to make the combo viable for competitive play.