Maybe JimbonX is trying to say that the party bus is so utterly broken (in the sense of too bad, not too good) that even with a illegal build with 4 over the top crew members, is too easy to dodge and a total waste of points, and he blame FFG of sell so bad ships...
Bossk is broken with IG. FFG screwed up again.
search for all the cards that have the word "immediately" in their text. Remove the word "immediately" from the text. Check if anything changed at all about how the card works. Kudos if you can find a single one.
There isn't. "[do this] [on this trigger]" and "[do this] immediately [on this trigger]" are functionally the same in isolation, so nothing can change in terms of how the card itself functions.
It can only matter in respect of something else which happens on the same trigger.
Before the timing chart came out, I'd've agreed with out.
That's a fair point. The timing chart is an official part of the game's rules.
Step 9:
Abilities trigger that occur "after attacking" or "after defending" that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)
i. Resolve 1 ability of player with initiative
ii. If you did not resolve an ability in step , resolve 1 ability of other player
The timing chart only gives a player permission to use 1 ability before moving off step 9.
Interesting. I'd not really scrutinised this before. The way steps 8 and 9 interact means that if you fire, miss, kill someone with vader, (step 8) and use gunner (step 9), does the destroyed ship "hang there" until you go round the loop again and this time proceed to step 10? Might have some interaction with stuff like deadman's switch.
Edited by Magnus Grendel
search for all the cards that have the word "immediately" in their text. Remove the word "immediately" from the text. Check if anything changed at all about how the card works. Kudos if you can find a single one.
There isn't. "[do this] [on this trigger]" and "[do this] immediately [on this trigger]" are functionally the same in isolation, so nothing can change in terms of how the card itself functions.
It can only matter in respect of something else which happens on the same trigger.
Before the timing chart came out, I'd've agreed with out.
That's a fair point. The timing chart is an official part of the game's rules.
Step 9:
Abilities trigger that occur "after attacking" or "after defending" that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)
i. Resolve 1 ability of player with initiative
ii. If you did not resolve an ability in step , resolve 1 ability of other player
The timing chart only gives a player permission to use 1 ability before moving off step 9.
Interesting. I'd not really scrutinised this before. The way steps 8 and 9 interact means that if you fire, miss, kill someone with vader, (step 8) and use gunner (step 9), does the destroyed ship "hang there" until you go round the loop again and this time proceed to step 10? Might have some interaction with stuff like deadman's switch.
Frank's name is tied to an email in the ruling, and while I don't disagree with you at all that immediately should have some relevance when things appear to have the same timing otherwise, Frank's ruling pretty much makes the word "immediately" meaningly. It's worth noting that "immediately" does appear on the recent Baze Malbus card even though the word means nothing. Developers sometimes end up overturned in an FAQ, though (I feel like we are long overdue for one).
The timing chart is the current ruling and must be followed. It allows both attacks to occur.
Edited by Engine25
The timing chart only gives a player permission to use 1 ability before moving off step 9.
Interesting. I'd not really scrutinised this before. The way steps 8 and 9 interact means that if you fire, miss, kill someone with vader, (step 8) and use gunner (step 9), does the destroyed ship "hang there" until you go round the loop again and this time proceed to step 10? Might have some interaction with stuff like deadman's switch.
Maybe I'm missing something but I see no reason why a destroyed ship would "hang there", even if it has DMS equipped. Abilities that are triggered by the ship's destruction are not covered by the flowchart since they're not a part of the attack cycle (though they may be a result of attack being made). My read is that they activate the very moment the ship gets destroyed.
EDIT - oh, you probably refer to the ship's removal step. That is indeed interesting.
Edited by Lightrock
The timing chart only gives a player permission to use 1 ability before moving off step 9.
Interesting. I'd not really scrutinised this before. The way steps 8 and 9 interact means that if you fire, miss, kill someone with vader, (step 8) and use gunner (step 9), does the destroyed ship "hang there" until you go round the loop again and this time proceed to step 10? Might have some interaction with stuff like deadman's switch.
Maybe I'm missing something but I see no reason why a destroyed ship would "hang there", even if it has DMS equipped. Abilities that are triggered by the ship's destruction are not covered by the flowchart since they're not a part of the attack cycle (though they may be a result of attack being made). My read is that they activate the very moment the ship gets destroyed.
EDIT - oh, you probably refer to the ship's removal step. That is indeed interesting.
Yes, destroyed ships are not removed until the very end of the process; the implications are for things like Dengar's revenge attack, but also for Biggs, DMS, etc etc etc.
And this also is not in dispute.
Before the timing chart came out, I'd've agreed with out.
But now, in the context of making extra attacks, 'immediately' seems to have little or no meaning, given that there are a wide range of things that happen in between missing with an attack, and resolving Gunner/Luke/Baze.
It's not as much the choosing one over the other part, it's getting the third attack regardless of the second one hitting or not. I would say if you hit with the second, you couldn't have the third because you missed gunners opportunity.
Before the timing chart came out, I'd've agreed with out.
But now, in the context of making extra attacks, 'immediately' seems to have little or no meaning, given that there are a wide range of things that happen in between missing with an attack, and resolving Gunner/Luke/Baze.
It's not as much the choosing one over the other part, it's getting the third attack regardless of the second one hitting or not. I would say if you hit with the second, you couldn't have the third because you missed gunners opportunity.
Except that is quite clearly not how the rules work, according to a whole mess of things including extra attacks, where you can trigger several things at once and resolve them sequentially. Or to put it another way, in that interpretation it could be argued that Whisper is TERRIBLE because if she chooses to use her pilot ability, she can't use FCS, and if she chooses to use FCS, she can't use ACD...
The attack chart even specifically allows for triggering an attack then resolving it after another attack, particularly in the edge case of Dengar with Gunner versus Dengar with Gunner.
Edited by thespaceinvaderThe timing chart is the current ruling and must be followed. It allows both attacks to occur.
Right, they'd have to actually reword IG88B to look more like Gunner.
Except that is quite clearly not how the rules work, according to a whole mess of things including extra attacks, where you can trigger several things at once and resolve them sequentially. Or to put it another way, in that interpretation it could be argued that Whisper is TERRIBLE because if she chooses to use her pilot ability, she can't use FCS, and if she chooses to use FCS, she can't use ACD...Before the timing chart came out, I'd've agreed with out.
But now, in the context of making extra attacks, 'immediately' seems to have little or no meaning, given that there are a wide range of things that happen in between missing with an attack, and resolving Gunner/Luke/Baze.
It's not as much the choosing one over the other part, it's getting the third attack regardless of the second one hitting or not. I would say if you hit with the second, you couldn't have the third because you missed gunners opportunity.
The attack chart even specifically allows for triggering an attack then resolving it after another attack, particularly in the edge case of Dengar with Gunner versus Dengar with Gunner.
The issue with your analogy using whisper, is her pilot ability, FCS, and ACD all are missing the "Immediately" condition on the card.
Hehe....
'This combo is totally broken and unbalances the game'
You ever lost to it?
'NEVER!!'
Uhmmm....
If this dude isn't a politician, he missed his calling.
Hehe....
'This combo is totally broken and unbalances the game'
You ever lost to it?
'NEVER!!'
Uhmmm....
If this dude isn't a politician, he missed his calling.
Coincidentally or not, I see politicians struggling with such questions all the time.
Edited by LingulaRedacted, I have nothing useful to add. what needs to be said has already been said.
Hey guys, so being the guy who actually got top 8 at the TN regional with this combo, it has been incredibly entertaining watching this list spread all over the forums and Reddit.
This combo in it's current form does play out where as others have stated "immediately" in the current rule set as written means nothing and is arbitrary. Do I agree with this and think this combo is how it is intended? Not in the least.
I was already making a Bossk/IG list when FFG clarified Step 9 in the timing chart. It essentially just fell into my lap. As others have stated the bad matchup are low agi ships, generally single agility because it does make the first shot harder to miss. To add fuel to fire a bit, the way you get around this is pick the hardest target to hit, like a Ryad R3 through a rock, you do your primary to give them 5 dice total for defense. Once you miss since both IGB and gunner allow you to target new ships in the subsequent attack, you rail into the intended target like a palp shuttle at range 1 with both your IGB and Gunner Primary. You can even switch targets if the IGB kills a ship and gunner hasn't gotten to shoot yet.
Also the hardest matchups are ordnance, and of course TLT swarms. The best matchups are Fenaroo, Dengaroo, Dash Miranda, and really anything that has 2 agility. Commonwealth is a winnable matchup but still you have to fly perfectly and get lucky with your rolls.
For those not interested in looking on reddit, here is the list.
Aggressor: · IG-88B (36)
Veteran Instincts (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Tractor Beam (1)
Fire Control System (2)
Autothrusters (2)
IG-2000 (0)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
YV-666: · Bossk (35)
Adaptability (Increase) (0)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Engine Upgrade (4)
· IG-88D (1)
Gunner (5)
· Dengar (3)
Burnout SLAM (1)
-- TOTAL ------- 100/100p. --
Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
Because of the EPT to put the YV at 8. a 1 point difference in the pilots is not enough for the 180 arc. He will get PS killed by all of the major lists, and not enough punching power that Bossk has. With Bossk as your YV pilot you can single round Dash before he gets to shoot, and in the current meta the ships that would PS kill you at 8 would already be higher than you at 9 besides Fenn and Soontir if he shows up at all.
EDIT
Also The whole synergy with the Mangler goes away when you switch because the Mangler turns into an HLC at that point with the option to give them a crit instead of the 2 damage.
Edited by Sandisc45Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
I think for IG-666 Moralo really is the way, however do not use Dengar when Bossk is lightyears better!
Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
I think for IG-666 Moralo really is the way, however do not use Dengar when Bossk is lightyears better!
I slightly disagree on Bossk crew > Dengar crew in that instance. Yes your IGB and Gunner shots are better, BUT you're chancing the random hit through if you can't use Dengar crew to guarantee the miss on the first shot. Those IGB and Gunner shots are less likely to happen when you don't have Dengar to make you miss your first shot.
I... uh... don't get it.
For people who may still be hung up on "Immediately", from Frank:
"“Immediately” doesn’t really have a meaning. It is old verbiage that is trying to help players understand that it happens “now” verses three rounds from now. It is an eleven letter monstrosity whose only effect is to clutter up what little text space that exists on Upgrade cards. It has no effect on priority or timing and we have avoided using the word on more modern cards due to this. Don’t worry about it."
I... uh... don't get it.
YV-666 with at least a cannon, Gunner and IG-88D Crew paired with IG-88B(usually with a tractor beam).
YV-666 attacks with its primary with intent to miss. If it does, both IG-88B(through D crew) and Gunner trigger. The triggers stack, controlling player decides the order, so you trigger IG-88B first and fire your YV-666's cannon. Whether that hits or not, the gunner trigger is still in the queue and resolves an you get to make a primary attack.
Typically the YV is Bossk for his ability to push extra damage through and you also take Dengar in the last crew spot for rerolls. IG-88B fires first with tractor against your intended target to either tag it or force tokens, can follow up with its own cannon if it misses. You have Bossk fire at the target he's most likely to miss and use Dengar to try to reroll any hits to blanks, then because IG-88B and Gunner are both new attacks you switch to the target you actually want off the triggers and still have Dengar for mods on both shots. OP's inclusion of Zuckuss was a mistake, as there's no room.
Edited by Otacon
Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
I think for IG-666 Moralo really is the way, however do not use Dengar when Bossk is lightyears better!
I slightly disagree on Bossk crew > Dengar crew in that instance. Yes your IGB and Gunner shots are better, BUT you're chancing the random hit through if you can't use Dengar crew to guarantee the miss on the first shot. Those IGB and Gunner shots are less likely to happen when you don't have Dengar to make you miss your first shot.
Yeah, you NEED to miss your first shot and Dengar crew gives you the best chance to do that. Bossk crew just lets your second shot hit harder, but that first shot missing is the key to the entire list.
Yeah, you NEED to miss your first shot and Dengar crew gives you the best chance to do that. Bossk crew just lets your second shot hit harder, but that first shot missing is the key to the entire list.I think for IG-666 Moralo really is the way, however do not use Dengar when Bossk is lightyears better!Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
I slightly disagree on Bossk crew > Dengar crew in that instance. Yes your IGB and Gunner shots are better, BUT you're chancing the random hit through if you can't use Dengar crew to guarantee the miss on the first shot. Those IGB and Gunner shots are less likely to happen when you don't have Dengar to make you miss your first shot.
Yeah I theory crafted this list when I read the FAQ and showed the to my local group. I pointed out it looks 100 percent legal so to keep an eye out for it but that the headache of actually explaining it to each judge and to each opponent far exceeds the usefulness of this list. It's a fun troll list but as others have pointed out not really OP.
Out of curiosity, why not go this route?
I figured you have the full 180 for both cannon for IGB and Gunner instead of the enemy ship being able to kind of escape to the aux side arc and not get hit by the cannon.
I think for IG-666 Moralo really is the way, however do not use Dengar when Bossk is lightyears better!
Lol yeah, disagree with the guy with a proven track record with the list.
Loop holes in card text
Playing lists even though you know it's not how it was designed
Timing chart shenanigans
Shoot at the ship you don't want to hit???
What is happening to this game and the people who play it