Blue's B-wings are at distance 1 of Red's Ketsu Onyo, which is Intel'd. Blue pops AFFM, then activates the B-wings. Are they

A) reduced by Ketsu by 2 to a minimum of 1 = speed 1, and then increased by AFFM by 1 to speed 2?

or

B) Increased by AFFM by 1 to speed 3, and then reduced by Ketsu by 2 to speed 1?

Edit: for reference...

And

Who is player one?

I'd argue same timing precedence. With same timing, you'd have to default to First Player does everything first, and apply in that order - which would potentially make the ruling different from Game to Game, initiative pending.

The only other way I can see if, if you were to argue any other timing precedence, then you would attempt to say that Ketsu effects a "permanent" speed change first, and then the "temporary" or "While activating" speed change of AFFM takes second fiddle.

But that assigns a somewhat arbitrary "power precedence" to effects where none exists - all we have are timing precedents.

Does it matter? Neither has a specified timing.

But let's say Red is player 1, for the sake of argument.

Does it matter? Neither has a specified timing.

But let's say Red is player 1, for the sake of argument.

If neither have a specified timing, when do you apply it?

There has to be an inherent timing - even if that inherent timing is "When I go to move my squadron". Or "When I look at my Squadron's Speed Value."

And if neither utilise any specific timing, and instead, you're relying on inherent timing, then their timing would be the same, and you would default, again, to 1st Player resolve their effects in full first, and then second players' effects are resolved.

Interesting one.

Wouldn't it depend in the order in which the effects are actually invoked?

In other words, the speed reduction effect is triggered and calculated the instant Onyo is at distance 1 of the B-wings.

If that happens before Blue spends a token to trigger AFFM, then the final speed is 2.

If instead Onyo moves into engagement with the B-wings after AFFM has been triggered for the round, then the final speed is 1. Then next round, if nobody moves or dies, the speed can be AFFM'd back to 2.

EDIT: The above conclusion is wrong, of course. The +1 from AFFM only triggers upon activation by a ship, not when the token is spent.

Yea this is a "who is 1st player issue".

Both cases are true.

Interesting one.

Wouldn't it depend in the order in which the effects are actually invoked?

In other words, the speed reduction effect is triggered and calculated the instant Onyo is at distance 1 of the B-wings.

If that happens before Blue spends a token to trigger AFFM, then the final speed is 2.

If instead Onyo moves into engagement with the B-wings after AFFM has been triggered for the round, then the final speed is 1. Then next round, if nobody moves or dies, the speed can be AFFM'd back to 2.

Then we're just stuck back at the same old question of "what is the timing on AFFM speed effects?" Is out when the card is triggered at the beginning of the ship phase, or when the squadrons are activated?

If neither have a specified timing, when do you apply it?

This is, indeed, the crux of the issue.

If neither have a specified timing, when do you apply it?

This is, indeed, the crux of the issue.

So, to involve the slippery slope - Without timing, its not applied and the cards are useless?

How do we solve impass one, in order to actually get to the question?

I have no idea if inherent and implied timing is the correct or best way to go... But it lets the game be played, for sure.

Without making at least one assumption, there is no resolution.

If The Assumption is that their timing is the same, then 1st player precedent takes effect, as per the rules.

If The Assumption is that their timing is different, then you need to assume more things about them, including their timing, before deciding on which takes precedence.

If you can make one assumption to fix, versus three assumptions to fix, I err on the side of being an arse only once, if I can.

But we all know how much of an arse I can actaully be, too.

Interesting one.

Wouldn't it depend in the order in which the effects are actually invoked?

In other words, the speed reduction effect is triggered and calculated the instant Onyo is at distance 1 of the B-wings.

If that happens before Blue spends a token to trigger AFFM, then the final speed is 2.

If instead Onyo moves into engagement with the B-wings after AFFM has been triggered for the round, then the final speed is 1. Then next round, if nobody moves or dies, the speed can be AFFM'd back to 2.

Then we're just stuck back at the same old question of "what is the timing on AFFM speed effects?" Is out when the card is triggered at the beginning of the ship phase, or when the squadrons are activated?

Oh yes - good point, I forgot about this. I had already thought about it in another context, and my conclusion was that the effect resolved at the time of activation.

So my above post was entirely wrong. Instead:

1. At the start of the ship phase, AFFM is triggered, but no squadrons receive a bonus yet (as they have not been activated by a ship). B-wing speed is 2.

2. Onyo moves into position; B-wing speed would drop to 0, but minimum clause applies so they go to speed 1.

3. A B-wing is activated by a ship; AFFM increases its speed by +1 until the end of the round its activation , so it goes to speed 2.

4. The B-wing moves away from Onyo, going back to its natural speed, with the +1 still applying. B-wing speed is 3.

5. Adar Tallon toggles the B-wing's slider to its unactivated side. Speed unchanged.

6. In the squadron phase Another ship resolves a squadron command , the B-wing activates and moves again, this time with speed 3.

EDIT: Oops. Further corrections. Thanks for the catch, Ard.

How do we solve impass one, in order to actually get to the question?

And now I have Cartman singing "In the Ghetto" stuck in my head.

Thanks, Dras.

More inclined to say that DA is right than anything else right now.

I would argue that sorting the timing out in this Ketsu is a "static effect." It is "always on" while the stipulation applies. Therefore Ketsu is or is not in effect before we get to AFFM which is a "triggered effect" that only takes place upon a squadron's activation. Squadrons do not get the AFFM boost in the squadron phase. AFFM clearly states the speed is not changed until the squadron is activated.

So what DiabloAzul said.

Interesting one.

Wouldn't it depend in the order in which the effects are actually invoked?

In other words, the speed reduction effect is triggered and calculated the instant Onyo is at distance 1 of the B-wings.

If that happens before Blue spends a token to trigger AFFM, then the final speed is 2.

If instead Onyo moves into engagement with the B-wings after AFFM has been triggered for the round, then the final speed is 1. Then next round, if nobody moves or dies, the speed can be AFFM'd back to 2.

Then we're just stuck back at the same old question of "what is the timing on AFFM speed effects?" Is out when the card is triggered at the beginning of the ship phase, or when the squadrons are activated?

Oh yes - good point, I forgot about this. I had already thought about it in another context, and my conclusion was that the effect resolved at the time of activation.

So my above post was entirely wrong. Instead:

1. At the start of the ship phase, AFFM is triggered, but no squadrons receive a bonus yet (as they have not been activated by a ship). B-wing speed is 2.

2. Onyo moves into position; B-wing speed would drop to 0, but minimum clause applies so they go to speed 1.

3. A B-wing is activated by a ship; AFFM increases its speed by +1 until the end of the round, so it goes to speed 2.

4. The B-wing moves away from Onyo, going back to its natural speed, with the +1 still applying. B-wing speed is 3.

5. Adar Tallon toggles the B-wing's slider to its unactivated side. Speed unchanged.

6. In the squadron phase, the B-wing activates and moves again, this time with speed 3.

This is my belief as well.

I just try not to inject my own opinion into my questions on here until there has been some discussion, to avoid squelching dissenters.

Also, interesting point on Adar, but I'm pretty sure that last clause on AFFM prevents steps 4b - 6: "... until the end of that squadron's activation."

Oh yeah, it doesn't say "until the end of the round", does it? That's what happens when I post about rules from memory.

Anyway, I guess a Tallon'd B-wing would still get a +1 (so speed 3) on its second activation if it got activated by another ship after having moved away the first time.

Oh yeah, it doesn't say "until the end of the round", does it? That's what happens when I post about rules from memory.

Anyway, I guess a Tallon'd B-wing would still get a +1 (so speed 3) on its second activation if it got activated by another ship after having moved away the first time.

Yeah, I agree with that.

You got me excited for a second there, with fevered visions of stacking the speed increase by activating the same squadron multiple times...

I would say the " while an enemy squad is at distance one" indicates the effect is permanently on and works if a fighter complies with the the at distance one requirement, so as the bwing speed changes due to activating under the influence of AFFM it will always be affected by the same " reduce speed by 2 to a minimum of 1" rule.

So ketsu moves within one of the Bwing. The Bwing now follows the rule and its speed is reduced from 2 to 1.the Bwing activates, AFFM increases its speed by 1 at this point, but it is still within one of ketsu so must still comply with the requirement on the ketsu effect so it's speed is " still reduced by 2 to a minimum of 1". Before Activation the beings speed was 2 reduced down to one. After activation its speed increases to two, but it's still being affected by ketsu so back down to one it goes.

Unfortunately, this is another no right or wrong answer rule ( until the FAQ comes out) as there is in timing related to this affect which makes it a pure "which seems to make more sense to my mind"approach.

I would say the " while an enemy squad is at distance one" indicates the effect is permanently on and works if a fighter complies with the the at distance one requirement, so as the bwing speed changes due to activating under the influence of AFFM it will always be affected by the same " reduce speed by 2 to a minimum of 1" rule.

So ketsu moves within one of the Bwing. The Bwing now follows the rule and its speed is reduced from 2 to 1.the Bwing activates, AFFM increases its speed by 1 at this point, but it is still within one of ketsu so must still comply with the requirement on the ketsu effect so it's speed is " still reduced by 2 to a minimum of 1". Before Activation the beings speed was 2 reduced down to one. After activation its speed increases to two, but it's still being affected by ketsu so back down to one it goes.

Unfortunately, this is another no right or wrong answer rule ( until the FAQ comes out) as there is in timing related to this affect which makes it a pure "which seems to make more sense to my mind"approach.

While I follow your argument typically effects even if "static" are not applied twice. While you are not technically applying it twice as it is "always on," your method of resolving become very different when dealing with a four or five speed squadron. 4-2 for Ketsu + 1 for AFFM -2 for Ketsu again to speed 1? Applying a pump causes even more of a penalty? That's an argument even in the most hardcore and laid back "fly casual" group. This is why there is the timing question.

"Reduced by 2" and "Reduced unalterably to 1" are very different things in games like Armada. The latter is harsh but clear and you deal with it and move on. The former is something you should be able to counter given there are timing for other things in the game and trying to make it read like "reduced unalterably to 1" will be taken as trying to cheat.

My two cents on this...I consider Ketsu Onyo the same way I treat Jamming Field on a flotilla. "While" you are at distance 1 of her, your speed is reduced by two when you move. It is an always on effect. Timing is irrelevant.