I don't necessarily disagree with your assessments there but I still struggle to see how any of those problems relate to the gender of the protagonists rather than just being schlocky writing.

Abrams is the result of what happens when you let Hollywood and Disney run rampant and bend a franchise over with no lube.

Rey and Jyn are what happens when you put a raging femenist in charge who has no originality or respect for creative integrity.

I'll agree on Rey, but Jyn was pretty well written.

Can't we all just agree that Star Trek is best on television? Here is to hoping that Discovery is good, despite the fact it is being done through a stupid system, that being that it will only be on the CBS streaming app.

I'm a fan of the TNG/DS9 and to an extent Voyager, so I'd like to see the series moving into a post TNG era rather than focusing on TOS era or leading up to it, which Discovery will be doing.

I'd actually disagree with that. Before the TNG movies started the slow descent towards the JJ drek, some of the original movies (ye olde even filmes) outshone the best episodes of the TV series. What fan didn't get floored when Spock died in TWOK? Shatner actually gave one of his best performances in that I believe. TVH threw out practically all sci-fi, rolled the dice on whales and character interaction, and came up box cars. TUC tied the whole TOS movie line up in a pretty bow with our crew going into the sunset (well, sun. It was in space). I think that Star Trek is best when it has a message to share. While that message has to be delivered properly (looking at you Picard sermons and space hippies), the greatest episodes and movies were the ones that told us something about ourselves while telling its own story.

Abrams didn't direct Beyond...

Man I dont understand the hate. I dont want it explained. I only posted to say i'm a lifelong Trekkie, I grew up on the Original Series and Next Gen,and I really enjoyed Beyond.

Nemesis is also underated. However Insurrection, Generations, and Final Frontier are objectively abysmal for different reasons. Insurrection is at least pretty okay when you imagine it as a large budger tv episode.

I'm guessing that I'll have to make some edits for the folks that don't bother to read past the first post... Needless to say, if you don't understand something yet don't want it explained to you, then your objectivity takes the appearance of bias because you have no desire to even consider other points of thought.

Picard's younger, romulan twin brother clone uses "Remans" to take over the romulan empire.

Hmmmm.... nope, that's about as fundamentally broken as you can get. Add in data's retarded older brother, simply ignoring the prime directive, and a bunch of other bad story elements on top of the bad acting, bad direction, bad character development and everything else and you pretty much have a movie that makes sharknado look like oscar material.

Actually, I do have 2 good things to say about nemesis. If I remember correctly, the new romulan ship design in it was pretty cool, and the romulan logo they created for the movie was awesome. So I guess, amid all the crap, it's design department deserves some props.

There were a couple major disappointments for me in Nemesis. It seemed like it was a precursor to the JJ style of Star Trek films. Oh, what's this? A ship that can fire while cloaked? What's this? The brains of the operation sacrifices himself after transferring his 'soul' into another entity? What's this? A fight between the two adversaries inside a nebula? It's like they took the major plot points of II and VI and used a sledgehammer to smash them together. In fact, Nemesis fell into the plot pit that TWOK actually saw and tried to avoid. The makers saw that just having the ships circle around throwing broadsides into one another would be boring after 1 minute. Thus the Mutara nebula to add an additional layer of suspense to things. Making one of the ships invisible isn't a viable alternative especially when it likely could solo the Enterprise without the cloak. If the ship were a glass cannon ala Balance of Terror, maybe it would have been a bit more interesting.

Nemesis just failed the message test that I mentioned above. What was the overarching story? That Picard could be evil if he were raised by space vampires? Without that theme tying the movie together, Nemesis was just a string of action scenes happening for... reasons.

The second thing that stuck in my craw was that this could have been the first movie to actually focus on the Romulans. Even with DS9 and TNG, there was still a huge amount of mystery to them when compared to the Klingons or even the Borg. Why not flesh out one of the major races in the series who are all about subtle plots and have an axe to grind with earth? Why not bring back Denise Crosby as the main villain? But nope, we'll slap together the Jem'Hadar with Nosferatu and throw in Anakin Skywalker without the Force.

Just realized that Abram's first movie involved an angsty Romulan-based villain who really didn't act Romulan with a nigh-unstoppable ship that they intend to use to destroy the earth with for... reasons that didn't add up. HATRED INTENSIFIES!

Yup, I whole-heartedly agree on the message test. One of the reasons I think TUC and FC are the best films. FC is pretty much a film saying, "Don't let hatred and revenge consume you", and TUC is literally a never-ending series of metaphors and allusions to the Cold War. Nemesis could've had a similar message to TUC, but it instead took all the story elements of TUC and WoK, threw them out the window, and used the action sequences.

Picard's younger, romulan twin brother clone uses "Remans" to take over the romulan empire.

Hmmmm.... nope, that's about as fundamentally broken as you can get. Add in data's retarded older brother, simply ignoring the prime directive, and a bunch of other bad story elements on top of the bad acting, bad direction, bad character development and everything else and you pretty much have a movie that makes sharknado look like oscar material.

Actually, I do have 2 good things to say about nemesis. If I remember correctly, the new romulan ship design in it was pretty cool, and the romulan logo they created for the movie was awesome. So I guess, amid all the crap, it's design department deserves some props.

The basic plot is usable. It's very believable that the Romulans would clone Federation leaders in an attempt to do some subterfugey stuff. It makes sense that if the plans fell through, they'd throw him into the mines with their other slaves. Data's brother, superlaser star destroyer, perfect cloak, lack of Sela, disobeying the prime directive, etc. are all reasons why Nemesis sucks. But the basic plotline could be turned into something atleast decent.

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessments there but I still struggle to see how any of those problems relate to the gender of the protagonists rather than just being schlocky writing.

Oh, I wasn't making the arguments based on gender, merely that the characters themselves are weak due to what the story demands of them. There might be some slight gender correlation where Rey succeeds by instantly mastering the skills needed to solve a situation while Kirk runs in head first then violences his way out, but that's the limit of it AFAIC. Pretty much a Lisa and Bart Simpson approach to the different characters. But without additional primary protagonists to compare with, I wouldn't say that this is a pattern with JJ.

I am not ready to bite on the "Rey OP" trend before the trilogy is done. To me it is setup for the sequels that were obviously always meant to be created. I don't like that TFA has problems standing alone (in fact that is what I love about Rogue One, not enough movies are content to end when they are finished, obviously not possible with mainline Star Wars, but some of that should be taken into consideration), but I am willing to see what is being set up, even looking forward to it.

I am not ready to bite on the "Rey OP" trend before the trilogy is done. To me it is setup for the sequels that were obviously always meant to be created. I don't like that TFA has problems standing alone (in fact that is what I love about Rogue One, not enough movies are content to end when they are finished, obviously not possible with mainline Star Wars, but some of that should be taken into consideration), but I am willing to see what is being set up, even looking forward to it.

I totally agree on TFA not being a standalone movie. While I do expect stuff like The First Order and the Resistance to be fleshed out in the next 2 movies, I don't expect there to be an onscreen explanation on who Lor San Tekka is or why C-3PO had a red arm. Yeah, I know there are other stories that I can purchase to get the back story on that, but why should I have to buy stuff to close plot points that were left hanging in a movie?

While Lost was rather infamous for leaving all kinds of stories unfinished, I think that in this case Disney was banking on using the movie to draw people to books and comics. That's shoddy movie making. I don't blame JJ for that though. While Cloverfield had little mysteries to solve on top of the main plot of the story, it wasn't integral and the space debris easily slipped by you if you weren't looking right at it. Also, the Star Trek series was pretty well cut and dry for each movie (the huge breakthroughs seem to disappear from movie to movie with the exception of the galaxy spanning transporter).

I am not ready to bite on the "Rey OP" trend before the trilogy is done. To me it is setup for the sequels that were obviously always meant to be created. I don't like that TFA has problems standing alone (in fact that is what I love about Rogue One, not enough movies are content to end when they are finished, obviously not possible with mainline Star Wars, but some of that should be taken into consideration), but I am willing to see what is being set up, even looking forward to it.

I totally agree on TFA not being a standalone movie. While I do expect stuff like The First Order and the Resistance to be fleshed out in the next 2 movies, I don't expect there to be an onscreen explanation on who Lor San Tekka is or why C-3PO had a red arm. Yeah, I know there are other stories that I can purchase to get the back story on that, but why should I have to buy stuff to close plot points that were left hanging in a movie?

Why would anyone care why 3PO has a red arm, though ? Thats such a throwaway line to increase 3POs awkwardness in my opinion. Agree on Lor San Tekka, however he might get some background since we still need background for Jakku which will be intertwined with Rey. Slim chance i know, since they quite clearly didn't have anything to do with each other (unless...unless he stuck around in the distance Ben Kenobi style to watch over her), but not impossible.

Apparently there's a mission explaining how 3PO got his red arm in he TFA Lego game... no idea whether that counts as canon though

I am not ready to bite on the "Rey OP" trend before the trilogy is done. To me it is setup for the sequels that were obviously always meant to be created. I don't like that TFA has problems standing alone (in fact that is what I love about Rogue One, not enough movies are content to end when they are finished, obviously not possible with mainline Star Wars, but some of that should be taken into consideration), but I am willing to see what is being set up, even looking forward to it.

I totally agree on TFA not being a standalone movie. While I do expect stuff like The First Order and the Resistance to be fleshed out in the next 2 movies, I don't expect there to be an onscreen explanation on who Lor San Tekka is or why C-3PO had a red arm. Yeah, I know there are other stories that I can purchase to get the back story on that, but why should I have to buy stuff to close plot points that were left hanging in a movie?

Why would anyone care why 3PO has a red arm, though ? Thats such a throwaway line to increase 3POs awkwardness in my opinion. Agree on Lor San Tekka, however he might get some background since we still need background for Jakku which will be intertwined with Rey. Slim chance i know, since they quite clearly didn't have anything to do with each other (unless...unless he stuck around in the distance Ben Kenobi style to watch over her), but not impossible.

Well he mentions it twice in the movie. Once pretty much stating 'hey look at my red arm! want to know why I have it? TOO BAD!' and a second time saying 'I guess I should put my original arm back on'. When you have a visual cue like that and two verbal references to it and done by a character who had previously been in 6 movies, you can't just dismiss it as a throwaway line. The movie is point blank telling you that there is a reason behind it.

Lorr Wan Kenobi is another example of this. If Kylo Renn had just popped out of his shuttle, asked where the map was, and killed him when he refused, you could write the character off as a Captain Antilles as he served his purpose as a minor character and the movie doesn't suffer from his not being fleshed out. But instead, Kylo and he chew the fat on old times and how old hes gotten. In terms of characters is would be similar to Lando never being introduced by Han to the audience and then Han and Lando doing their fake out of each other followed by the hug. Yeah, I guess he's an old friend of Han's, but why is he so concerned about the Falcon? Did they go to college together or something? But ESB gave us one line about him being Lando, a person who Han may or may not be friends with, and that sets up our understanding that he's not just a guy who runs a city in the clouds, he's a scoundrel like Han who can't necessarily be trusted. How awkward would Obi Wan's introduction have been if R2D2's recording hadn't set the stage for him? What if Grand Moff Tarkin's role in the greater scheme of things was never identified?

Keeping the audience out of the loop is a useful tool in films when there's either a surprise twist or there's enough information available that the audience can piece things together themselves. Jakku has a ton of wrecked Rebel and Imperial ships around it. We didn't need to know more about it in order to progress the movie any more than we needed to know the full backstory on Alderaan. Vader wasn't known to be Luke's father in ANH, but we knew he was a bad guy and Obi Wan at least set up the point by telling Luke about his father's death. But Lorr was an old man pointed out to be close to a bad guy who had dealings with older people who used to be young when the OT was going on. The movie at least needed to point out whether or not he was one of the characters from the OT as quite a few people were coming out of the theater asking whether it was Wedge or Rieekan or some other minor character that we just couldn't recognize because of age. Instead you're left wondering why you should care about his death and why it would induce Poe to take a shot at Kylo. That's a failure of the plot and a dangling thread. Good writing is supposed to avoid that.

Apparently there's a mission explaining how 3PO got his red arm in he TFA Lego game... no idea whether that counts as canon though

Yeah, a fan shouldn't have to pay an additional fee in order to explain a blatantly baited plot hole left by the movie. That's shady and fans should boycott any attempts at doing so or else it will become a more and more frequently used tactic by companies to wring some extra money out of fans.

i dont like the new startrek movies as a whole. StarTrek did NOT need a **** reboot, and they rebooted it.

Oddly enough, StarTrek 2 and 6 (Khan and Klingons to jar some memories) are the only actual movies i liked, the rest felt....off. Even the 2nd one has a lot of issues but least its still somewhat enjoyable (like seriously what are the odds Khan just HAPPENED to find the Enterprise with the Admiral on board? Kirk had no business being on that ship given his rank). None of TNG movies were all that good imo either.

The Series were awesome though. Original was awesome in the sense it was just comically bad and cheesy but not too far into that direction, while all 3 of the TNG universe series were amazing for their own reasons.

...i really want another series to pop up that is NOT a reboot...lol

I am not ready to bite on the "Rey OP" trend before the trilogy is done. To me it is setup for the sequels that were obviously always meant to be created. I don't like that TFA has problems standing alone (in fact that is what I love about Rogue One, not enough movies are content to end when they are finished, obviously not possible with mainline Star Wars, but some of that should be taken into consideration), but I am willing to see what is being set up, even looking forward to it.

I totally agree on TFA not being a standalone movie. While I do expect stuff like The First Order and the Resistance to be fleshed out in the next 2 movies, I don't expect there to be an onscreen explanation on who Lor San Tekka is or why C-3PO had a red arm. Yeah, I know there are other stories that I can purchase to get the back story on that, but why should I have to buy stuff to close plot points that were left hanging in a movie?

Why would anyone care why 3PO has a red arm, though ? Thats such a throwaway line to increase 3POs awkwardness in my opinion. Agree on Lor San Tekka, however he might get some background since we still need background for Jakku which will be intertwined with Rey. Slim chance i know, since they quite clearly didn't have anything to do with each other (unless...unless he stuck around in the distance Ben Kenobi style to watch over her), but not impossible.

Well he mentions it twice in the movie. Once pretty much stating 'hey look at my red arm! want to know why I have it? TOO BAD!' and a second time saying 'I guess I should put my original arm back on'. When you have a visual cue like that and two verbal references to it and done by a character who had previously been in 6 movies, you can't just dismiss it as a throwaway line. The movie is point blank telling you that there is a reason behind it.

Lorr Wan Kenobi is another example of this. If Kylo Renn had just popped out of his shuttle, asked where the map was, and killed him when he refused, you could write the character off as a Captain Antilles as he served his purpose as a minor character and the movie doesn't suffer from his not being fleshed out. But instead, Kylo and he chew the fat on old times and how old hes gotten. In terms of characters is would be similar to Lando never being introduced by Han to the audience and then Han and Lando doing their fake out of each other followed by the hug. Yeah, I guess he's an old friend of Han's, but why is he so concerned about the Falcon? Did they go to college together or something? But ESB gave us one line about him being Lando, a person who Han may or may not be friends with, and that sets up our understanding that he's not just a guy who runs a city in the clouds, he's a scoundrel like Han who can't necessarily be trusted. How awkward would Obi Wan's introduction have been if R2D2's recording hadn't set the stage for him? What if Grand Moff Tarkin's role in the greater scheme of things was never identified?

Keeping the audience out of the loop is a useful tool in films when there's either a surprise twist or there's enough information available that the audience can piece things together themselves. Jakku has a ton of wrecked Rebel and Imperial ships around it. We didn't need to know more about it in order to progress the movie any more than we needed to know the full backstory on Alderaan. Vader wasn't known to be Luke's father in ANH, but we knew he was a bad guy and Obi Wan at least set up the point by telling Luke about his father's death. But Lorr was an old man pointed out to be close to a bad guy who had dealings with older people who used to be young when the OT was going on. The movie at least needed to point out whether or not he was one of the characters from the OT as quite a few people were coming out of the theater asking whether it was Wedge or Rieekan or some other minor character that we just couldn't recognize because of age. Instead you're left wondering why you should care about his death and why it would induce Poe to take a shot at Kylo. That's a failure of the plot and a dangling thread. Good writing is supposed to avoid that.

Apparently there's a mission explaining how 3PO got his red arm in he TFA Lego game... no idea whether that counts as canon though

Yeah, a fan shouldn't have to pay an additional fee in order to explain a blatantly baited plot hole left by the movie. That's shady and fans should boycott any attempts at doing so or else it will become a more and more frequently used tactic by companies to wring some extra money out of fans.

I completely agree. This is one of the problems with the new stance Disney has taken on the canon. Now that EVERYTHING they make is official canon they will do things like this to try to force people into buying everything just so they can understand one thing. This type of marketing very rarely works out. When I leave the theatre, I should feel like I want to know more about the characters, not that I have to.

The red arm is probably a clumsy reference to the silver leg in Ep4. Who knows with JJ. Im hping that Trek will follow what i see as the trek/Wars path. Original was excellent. (Trek- OS/first couple of films, SW-OT and a few things since .....an over simplification and subjective but anyway) and it started going down hill after that. But then came Rogue One. Maybe Discovery will be Treks Rogue one.....maybe. Or perhaps the time travel thing in the next trek will fix things and send us back to the original timeline

28 minutes ago, Gosric said:

The red arm is probably a clumsy reference to the silver leg in Ep4. Who knows with JJ. Im hping that Trek will follow what i see as the trek/Wars path. Original was excellent. (Trek- OS/first couple of films, SW-OT and a few things since .....an over simplification and subjective but anyway) and it started going down hill after that. But then came Rogue One. Maybe Discovery will be Treks Rogue one.....maybe. Or perhaps the time travel thing in the next trek will fix things and send us back to the original timeline

It's been confirmed Discovery is in the original timeline.... It's also 10 years before TOS, a pretty boring place in the original timeline....

3 hours ago, YwingAce said:

It's been confirmed Discovery is in the original timeline.... It's also 10 years before TOS, a pretty boring place in the original timeline....

We will see. The fact we have not one, but three actors cast for major Klingon roles (as members of the Empire and not Federation lapdogs) inspires me with some hope.

Personally hoping that limiting it to streaming sites doesn't sink the show. Star Trek series are like souffles, jar them too much and they wind up collapsing.

Nemesis was the theme of how two different lives can change the same person in completely different directions. Shinzon is what Picard might have been if he had been born into a crappy life and not the privilege of the 24th century Federation.

Yeah but they did it in a horrible way. I mean, as xenophobic as the Romulans are, even IF the Remans took over, do you think they'd let a human, much less one of their science projects lead the Empire? And then he decides he has to microwave the Earth because he didn't get the same hugz as Picard? And after a long and convoluted plot to steal Picard's geneseed fails, and both ships are at a stalemate, Shinzon tries to nuke the one source of salvation for him when he still has a ship full of fighter craft and Jem'Hadar light nosferatu.

And through all this Picard is so mystified and perplexed that somebody with his genetic material could somehow be evil. I mean I was kind of perplexed about how Shinzon was acting myself but Picard doesn't have the advantage of knowing that somebody actually created the character to try to be his evil twin. I mean he even can't fathom seeing his doppelganger die even though the science of what created him is quite well known, he had already killed a number of Picards crew, crippled his ship, and... oh yeah the timer for the disintigrator ray is still ticking down why the heck are you staring like a blithering idiot?

And of course the worst mortal sin of Nemesis was showing young Picard with no hair when we already knew that he had hair at that age. Trekdom does not forget one minute detail.

But seriously, Shinzon was a very weak villain. If we had Sela in his place and dropped the whole clone arc, we'd have a movie that was twice as good. We have the arrogant Romulan woman who is a classic adversary of Picard and has actual history with him as he was indirectly and one timeline removed responsible for the events leading to her birth and also most likely rather irked at Picard and co for foiling her antics in the Klingon Civil War and the plot to invade Vulcan.

HERE'S A PLOT TO NEMESIS THAT I CAME UP WITH IN THE COURSE OF ONE EVENING THAT CONTAINS THE ELEMENTS OF GOOD TREK MOVIES, SKIP IF DESIRED

So she's been plotting her revenge for all these years and figures that since the Romulan military proper didn't take as much of a beating as Starfleet did in the Dominion war (what with that period of neutrality and all), that now would be the perfect time to attack the Federation. The Senate balks saying that Romulus is too weak to withstand both the Federation and the Klingons. Sela asks if this is the Senate's final say on the matter, leaves, and Tal'aura dusts them all as in the original script.

Sela then backs Tal'aura's accession as Praetor while she begins to carry out her plan. She first has a piece of indistinguishable debris from the Enterprise C ejected into Federation territory. In it are the still functional remains of Data who supposedly decided to join the doomed ship in order to ensure the original timeline came back into being. The Enterprise picks him up avoided the whole 'Argo' mess, and discover that the damage of the battle along with the prolonged exposure to cosmic radiation has caused this Data's positronic brain to be irreparably damaged. We then go through the whole memory download routine as Data hopes that any shared memories between the two could open up memories of the alternate timeline. We then get the same summons to Romulus this time on behalf of Tal'aura.

The new Romulan leader talks a great game about taking down the Neutral Zone and creating a formal alliance and Picard and co. indeed believe that the Federation's longest and coldest conflict may finally be resolved. While this is occurring, the 2nd Data hacks into the Enterprise's computer in much the same way B4 did. We then go according to the original script, minus the creepy mind assault scene, to the point where the second Data and Picard is beamed off the Enterprise bridge and the Scimitar first appears (this time).

In the Scimitar's medical bay, Picard awakens to find himself confronting his longtime nemesis (a lot closer to the definition of the term than Shinzon ever was). She proceeds to gloat to Picard about how his interference had nearly destroyed her career yet after all these years she had finally achieved command of the Romulan's last ditch effort to fight the Dominion should the war turn against the Alpha Quadrent; a ship that could engage while cloaked and destroy the founders' true homeworld singlehandedly. She then introduces the other part of her plan, the second Data. She says that he isn't an actual Soong android, merely the Romulans' best facsimile based off stolen plans yet she believes there will be a major breakthrough in the tech once they have an original model to dissect.

Picard demands to know what she intends to do and she states that it should be perfectly obvious. The Romulans have not destroyed an Enterprise in quite some time and Sela was going to accomplish that right before she destroys the heart of the Federation. Picard says that this will lead to open warfare and the Klingons will be sure to be involved. Sela states that between the Romulan's relatively stronger fleet and the Scimitar, all estimates point to both parties being held off long enough for all the major worlds in both territories to be sterilized. At that point the Federation will have surrendered and the Romulans can then focus the bulk of their fleet on finally wiping the Klingons out of the galaxy. She then coyly surmises that the only decision left for her to make is who to take as her own consort from the wreckage of the Enterprise? As she muses on how much fun it would be to break La Forge's mind compared to forcing Riker to choose to stay with her after she had killed his wife in front of him, she groans suddenly as she is given a Vulcan neck pinch by Data for the second time in her life. Both then escape the Scimitar, the Enterprise makes a break for it, Picard is sure that Sela will not allow him to thwart her yet again, and the rest of the movie goes rather unchanged. Heck, once Sela gets impaled on the pipe, she can try to strangle Picard while saying that no matter what she did he has always been the source of her downfall (OH SNAP PICARD WAS THE NEMESIS THIS WHOLE TIME!).

No space vampires, no mental sexual assaults, no ill fitting primary protagonist, no out of plot space dune buggies, and Trek fans would have seen the true levels of subterfuge that the Romulans were capable of that would make Game of Thrones seem somewhat trite by the time it first came out.

END FANDOM WALL HERE

Trek movies rely more on the interpersonal connections of the major characters and perhaps the villain than they do a flashy new character coming out of the blue. Look at the great rivalries that came from the movies: Khan, Chang, the Borg Queen. Now look at the shallow ones: V'Ger, Kruge, Klaa, Soran, the Son'a, and Shinzon. Which villains were tied to the good Trek movies and which were tied to the bad? The only standout from that group is Star Trek IV and that was carried on the pure charisma and comradery that only the original crew really managed to achieve. Villains of the week are fine for single television episodes, but a movie requires something that the audience can truly relate to then and there. Not many people stay up at night wondering what their life would be like if they were brought up in a different if they were the same person born in a different environment, but a good chunk of people have had rivalries and at least have an innate grasp of the concept of intrigue. At the very least, the concept of an inescapable fate is a well known one since Ancient Greece.

And finally, fans need a true sendoff for the last movie or episode of a crew. DS9 gave us that, ST VI certainly did, and with the above plot line TNG could have had the same sendoff (I will say that 'All Good Things' was a great final episode, but it was not in fact the 'final' final episode).

That's really fair don't get me wrong. Nemesis as a final TNG movie is awful. However I disagree slightly, I think 'All Good Things' is the best possible way to end TNG era. It embodied everything the show and Star Trek are all about and the final bit with Q was awesome and paralleled the first episode. It was a perfect ending that succinctly wrapped the series up. To me the movies were an epilogue.

I see TNG as the opposite of the Original Series. TOS never got to finish their television run and the films did that, they gave TOS a final season as it were. TNG on the other hand for me really ended at 'All Good Things' and the movies were bonus material. If this was baseball the movies for TNG are extra innings. When you look at it that way the lower quality of the films are less egregious.

I just think Nemesis is usually roasted so much, and there are aspects and decisions that deserve to be, but there's a lot of great aspects to it. The Remans are an incredible addition to the canon and they look amazing from their designs to their uniforms to their ships. The Romulans visually are at their best and we finally get to see the Imperial Senate! I love the mystery of the first half and how creepy it was upon initial viewing of when they go to the desert planet.

Well there was supposed to be one more movie after Nemesis, but it did so poorly that they scrapped it.