The B-wing rolls the X-wing does not.....

As you can see below the X-wing is clearly missing that action.

I've done some thinking about the B-Wing. Here's my thoughts.

So the B-Wing never had "standard" laser cannons. It had an HLC, 3 ion cannons, a cluster of autoblasters for close air support, and it's proton torpedo launchers.

So perhaps we could make a title like this:

A/SF-01 B-Wing, Title, X Points cause i dunno:

Add the <Cannon> upgrade slot to your upgrade bar, and equip a cannon that costs 3 or less points for free. You may not perform primary weapon attacks. After you perform a <Cannon> secondary weapon attack, you may perform an attack with a different equipped <cannon> secondary weapon. You may not attack again this turn.

Reinforce it's heavy firepower by keeping it in the realm of cannons.

The B-wing rolls the X-wing does not.....

...Yeah. He said so in his post.

"The X-Wing's superior dial is further offset by the B-Wing's ability to barrel roll, which requires a 2 point upgrade for the X-Wing to pull off. "

You really don't need to do anything that restricts an X-wing fix to the t-65. FFG deliberately* kept the t-70 in line Balance with the classic X-wing since they didn't want to bother with goofy syntax for future X-wing fixes. Tellingly, the T-70 sees if anything less competitive success than it's predecessor.

*Per interviews prior to the TFA core set release.

They're both great and fun to fly.

But the X-Wing causes far, far more whining.

You really don't need to do anything that restricts an X-wing fix to the t-65. FFG deliberately* kept the t-70 in line Balance with the classic X-wing since they didn't want to bother with goofy syntax for future X-wing fixes. Tellingly, the T-70 sees if anything less competitive success than it's predecessor.

*Per interviews prior to the TFA core set release.

Which is why the title I proposed can be taken on both the T-70 and the regular X-Wing. I just didn't want to give the T-70 the drift maneuver, because I wanted the old X-Wing to have something unique about it that is a step down from the Tallon Roll, but works along the same lines.

B-wing is a brawler. Get a big traffic jam of ships in the center that are bumping into each other, then let the B-wing go in and blast through the center being able to cut a path into the jam. Things is ships are now more mobile than ever and those traffic jams are rarely seen.

They're both great and fun to fly.

But the X-Wing causes far, far more whining.

Let B-wing Barrel Roll while stressed and give X-wings Outmaneuver for free.

B-wings have a lot of red moves and have a system slot for action efficiency. But why would you ever barrel roll if you can focus. Well if you aren't able to take the focus move because you are stressed then you can barrel roll to get arc on your enemy. And B-wings 'thing' is the rotating frame.

Xwings have no re-positional actions and no built in action efficiency. If you get caught in an x-wing arc then you either were not paying attention, or had a more important target. Letting all x-wings have outmaneuver encourages you to break formation with them, and allows you to harass the opponent by making them break off the chase of a wounded ship to get your xwing back in arc. The ships are often shown in the movies as calling out when they have someone on their tail, allowing their fellows to pick off the offending TIE.

Or the xwings could, at the end of the placement phase, take a target lock on any ship on the board. To simulate the rebelion's hit and run tactics.

Now the real question is, how would you avoid the diminishing returns of the B-Wing when you start loading it up? What sorts of upgrades can you guys come up with to make the B-Wing more useful as a loaded up Ordinance and Cannon carrier? A new system slot that does something for Torpedoes (Possibly fixing the Punisher at the same time)? A new B-Wing only cannon that hits like a tank like the one we saw in Rebels? I'm honestly really curious how we can go about giving the B-Wing its role as a heavy weapons platform without making it a bloated points-pinata.

With the Custom Card League coming up later this month, I've been grappling with these same questions. But in addition to the problems you've stated, the Bwing has another problem.

Just as the Bwing's current slots go unused because they require loading up on points, so too do the named pilots go unused, for the same reason. Being PS8 or 10 hardly matters when a well placed academy pilot can cover every non-red maneuver with a range 1 attack "bucket", and half the pilots prefer to be stressed, locking down the barrel roll that is supposed to set the Bwing apart.

My solution for the Custom card league addesses your problem and mine with separate cards. For your issue, a modification, for all pilots, that gives the Bwing an arsonal without biasing it toward one weapon over another- A swiss army knife, but not a claymore.

Ion, Flechette, Tractors... they have utility, but they dont overpower the 3 die primary. This title gives them for free.

Likewise, Flechette and Plasma torpedos. As a modification, this prevents the use of Guidance Chips, and "three dice with TL vs 4 dice without" is the classic example of old style munitions being not worth their points. So for this ship, they DONT cost points, and their utility is just one more option in the Bwing's kit.

Manglers, Autoblasters, and HLCs... these offer things the Bwing lacks. And while you can take them cheaper than normal, you still have to pay for the privilage. 1 point to autocrit, 2 points for a range 1 undodgable attack. The HLC is still 4 points, on par with Expose or Opportunist, but without their drawbacks. Without FCS, Major Juggler puts a HLC Bwing's "correct" value at 26.2 points. With FCS, he values it at 27.5 points, leaving it slightly behind the Academy Pilot Tie fighter in efficency... but with the utility of the torpedoes and second cannon still available, anytime you want to give up raw power for finesse in the middle of battle. Good but not overpowering, with a toolkit to handle the unforseen.

For the pilot issue, I needed something to make being high PS worth it. The actual dial of the Bwing isnt bad, but half of it is locked behind fear of red maneuvers, and even if you take that leap, you are locked out of your ability to dodge out of an enemy arc with the barrel roll.

The VCX has a similar dial, however, and shows one solution- Hera. a FCS/stress stacking VCX has a wide open dial while still being able to modify it's results a long as it stays on the same target. The T70's Primed Thrusters offer another approach, allowing post maneuver movement after red maneuvers or while stressed, as long as you arnt TOO badly stressed.

I combined these two approaches.

Ibstan and Farlander no longer fear their abilities and everyone's dials open up immencely. Though they lose the ability to focus or TL, their ability to evade arcs remains intact, as long as ther stress does not get TOO high. And one cannot overstate the utility of throwing a 2K into a furball, failing with a bump, and simply trying it again next round.

These were my solutions for the Bwing. The Xwing needed further enhancements to keep up, but I kept those in the relm of enhancing the strengths of the Xwing- powerful pilots, not a powerful spacecraft. A fixed price for an extra, free EPT, whether you already have an EPT equipped or not, is a strong effect, but one tied to the pilot inside the machine, not the machine itself.

Now the real question is, how would you avoid the diminishing returns of the B-Wing when you start loading it up? What sorts of upgrades can you guys come up with to make the B-Wing more useful as a loaded up Ordinance and Cannon carrier? A new system slot that does something for Torpedoes (Possibly fixing the Punisher at the same time)? A new B-Wing only cannon that hits like a tank like the one we saw in Rebels? I'm honestly really curious how we can go about giving the B-Wing its role as a heavy weapons platform without making it a bloated points-pinata.

With the Custom Card League coming up later this month, I've been grappling with these same questions. But in addition to the problems you've stated, the Bwing has another problem.

Just as the Bwing's current slots go unused because they require loading up on points, so too do the named pilots go unused, for the same reason. Being PS8 or 10 hardly matters when a well placed academy pilot can cover every non-red maneuver with a range 1 attack "bucket", and half the pilots prefer to be stressed, locking down the barrel roll that is supposed to set the Bwing apart.

My solution for the Custom card league addesses your problem and mine with separate cards. For your issue, a modification, for all pilots, that gives the Bwing an arsonal without biasing it toward one weapon over another- A swiss army knife, but not a claymore.

Ion, Flechette, Tractors... they have utility, but they dont overpower the 3 die primary. This title gives them for free.

Likewise, Flechette and Plasma torpedos. As a modification, this prevents the use of Guidance Chips, and "three dice with TL vs 4 dice without" is the classic example of old style munitions being not worth their points. So for this ship, they DONT cost points, and their utility is just one more option in the Bwing's kit.

Manglers, Autoblasters, and HLCs... these offer things the Bwing lacks. And while you can take them cheaper than normal, you still have to pay for the privilage. 1 point to autocrit, 2 points for a range 1 undodgable attack. The HLC is still 4 points, on par with Expose or Opportunist, but without their drawbacks. Without FCS, Major Juggler puts a HLC Bwing's "correct" value at 26.2 points. With FCS, he values it at 27.5 points, leaving it slightly behind the Academy Pilot Tie fighter in efficency... but with the utility of the torpedoes and second cannon still available, anytime you want to give up raw power for finesse in the middle of battle. Good but not overpowering, with a toolkit to handle the unforseen.

For the pilot issue, I needed something to make being high PS worth it. The actual dial of the Bwing isnt bad, but half of it is locked behind fear of red maneuvers, and even if you take that leap, you are locked out of your ability to dodge out of an enemy arc with the barrel roll.

The VCX has a similar dial, however, and shows one solution- Hera. a FCS/stress stacking VCX has a wide open dial while still being able to modify it's results a long as it stays on the same target. The T70's Primed Thrusters offer another approach, allowing post maneuver movement after red maneuvers or while stressed, as long as you arnt TOO badly stressed.

I combined these two approaches.

Ibstan and Farlander no longer fear their abilities and everyone's dials open up immencely. Though they lose the ability to focus or TL, their ability to evade arcs remains intact, as long as ther stress does not get TOO high. And one cannot overstate the utility of throwing a 2K into a furball, failing with a bump, and simply trying it again next round.

I do like some of your ideas here for the B-Wing. The Integrated Weapons Platform would definitely go a long way toward encouraging more usage of cannons and torpedoes on it rather than using it as a generic jouster. I still feel like the X-Wing should have a bump to its pure jousting efficiency, because as is, there's simply no real reason to take a generic X-Wing over a generic B-Wing. This would be especially true if you could toss two Plasma Torpedoes onto a B-Wing for no cost, along with an Ion Cannon and a Tractor Beam. All that on a 22 point B-Wing would make the generic X-Wing feel useless in comparison unless the X-Wing could straight-up out-joust the B-Wing.

High PS awings are arcdodgers, low Ps are blockers.

Low ps xwing are (or should be) efficent jousters, but what are high PS xwings? What does points spent on PS get a ship that cannot react?

Because when people want to play the games namesake starfighter, they arnt wanting Generic Rookiee Pilot #3. They want Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antillies, Porkens. They want Corran, Garek "face" Loran, or Lt Kettish. They want General Merrik and the other veterans of Scarif.

Its this mid-to-high PS Im aiming to help. The actual price may need work, but the selling point of the Xwing should always be the pilots that fly it.

High PS awings are arcdodgers, low Ps are blockers.

Low ps xwing are (or should be) efficent jousters, but what are high PS xwings? What does points spent on PS get a ship that cannot react?

Because when people want to play the games namesake starfighter, they arnt wanting Generic Rookiee Pilot #3. They want Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antillies, Porkens. They want Corran, Garek "face" Loran, or Lt Kettish. They want General Merrik and the other veterans of Scarif.

Its this mid-to-high PS Im aiming to help. The actual price may need work, but the selling point of the Xwing should always be the pilots that fly it.

That's a fair point. It's something I had in mind when I made my title. It provides an easier way for the high pilot skill X-Wings to get an enemy in arc (With the new maneuver type), and it provides the X-Wing with a wide array of customization options to help players build out their X-Wing the way they want to fly it. If they want to go cheap and efficient, a generic with Guidance Astromech, Integrated Astromech, and Vectored Thrusters is only 25 points for a ship that has a decent dice mod regardless of actions, and the ability to barrel roll. If they want to go with an arc-dodging ace, they can toss Vectored Thrusters and Engine Upgrade on Wedge, making him cost the same price as Soontir Fel. Add Guidance Astromech or Targeting Astromech, and he gets a little pricier, but he'll be able to reposition fairly well, and his offense will be pretty deadly. Wes would also love being able to change the direction of his arc so he always has the proper enemy in his sights to strip tokens from, whether from boosting and/or barrel rolling, or from using my proposed maneuver.

The biggest reason I'm not a fan of the EPT idea is because it's basically the same fix that A-Wings got. While I admit that it's plenty thematic for the X-Wing (Since those pilots are some of the best in Star Wars lore), I feel that the X-Wing pilots' abilities are reflected well enough on their cards that we don't need an extra EPT on each of them (Though I will admit I really, really want Hobbie to have Stay On Target).

Granted, the extra mod idea has also been done with the TIE Interceptor, but at least that ship is in a different faction, so it doesn't quite feel as repetitive in this case. And given how customizeable the X-Wing is supposed to be, seeing as it's meant to be the jack-of-all-trades ship, it should have the option to take multiple modifications in order to suit whichever role it needs to fill.

I get if you have a different opinion on this. After all, not everyone is going to agree on everything. I'm just trying to explain why I feel the way I do about the X-Wing.

At the moment unless you are talking Biggs both are dead weight. Kind of. Would love to try M9-G8 Tarn. But at the moment I don't see many lists that I'd run over K-WIngs.

X-Wings in the movies aren't that tough, but the four cannons just keep spitting death till stuff dies.

Space Superiority Fighter

X-Wing only. Title.

If you miss with a Primary attack, you may immediately attack the same target again.

If you do so, you may not attack again this round.

Edited to add:

To speak more directly to the actual topic, I see the difference between the x and the b in that the x should be better at taking down nimble opponents (hence my suggestion above) while the B instead should excel against larger, less nimble opponents.

For the X-wing, I'd go:

T-65R (Torpedo, -1 point): You may equip a (system) upgrade worth 3 points or fewer.

Provide some other fixes via astromechs.

For the B-wing, E2 should have been a free title -- B-wings are capital ship killers and should be encouraged to have guidance chips. It now needs a hair more maneuverability or defense, so perhaps a discount on sensor jammer or some other electronic warfare upgrade to help them get in and get their ordnance off.

Oh, this is a fix x-wing topic?

Oh, this is a fix x-wing topic?

Any topic that includes the T-65 will divulge into one.

Well, it WAS a highbrow one taking hard looks at what the ship needs and why people want to play the Xwing.

I think the OP and I agree on one thing for the xwing- it needs more options, and Integrated Astromech took away as much as it added.

Here's what I think the X-wing should look like (the links are the card's art):

Or should it look like this:

Here's what I think the X-wing should look like (the links are the card's art):

goo.gl/AfA3zv

T-65C-A2 X-wing

Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing Only. Title.

After spending a focus token, you may receive one evade token.

The total squad point cost of <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrades equipped are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).

Cost: 0

goo.gl/nDoRil

T-65B X-wing

Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing only. Title.

When you reveal a green maneuver, you may assign receive one focus token if you are not stressed.

The total squad point cost of <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrades equipped are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).

Cost: 0

Or should it look like this:

goo.gl/AfA3zv

T-65C-A2 X-wing

Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing Only. Title.

After spending a focus token, you may receive one evade token.

Reduce the squad point cost of each <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrade equipped by 2 (to a minimum of 0).

Cost: 1

goo.gl/nDoRil

T-65B X-wing

Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing only. Title.

When you reveal a green maneuver, you may assign receive one focus token if you are not stressed.

Reduce the squad point cost of each <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrade equipped by 2 (to a minimum of 0).

Cost: 1

Why?

Please explain your reasoning for this approach over another. What problems does your fix solve, what problems does it deliberately introduce or ignore, how does it affect named pilots compared to generics?

This upgrade can't exist because of Biggs.