Alternate title:
Your After effect isn't responding... Please add an End turn declaration to proceed.

Sorry this is long, but I felt it needed describing.

Short background as to why this came up.
I was playing a game with a someone who had Vader as one of his characters. He would activate Vader and rolling the dice. Then he would sit there. No expression of "I'm done. It's your turn". I know that he may force me to discard, but he's missing it. When I finally ask if it's my turn he goes "oh yeah discard a card". The only thing that clues him in to look at his cards for missed things is the time passage and my prompting him.

We've probably all played against someone who doesn't signal that their turn has ended and it's your turn now.

In casual games it's not a big deal, but in tournaments it could become an issue.

From the tournament rules doc.

Missed Opportunities
Players are expected to follow the game’s rules, remembering to perform actions and use dice and card effects when indicated. It is all players’ responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and to ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged .
...

I'm happy to do my part to ensure all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged, but I don't want to play my opponents deck for them by reminding them they can use their "may" ability.
And I don't want to waste time during a tournament game waiting to see how long it takes for them to look at me and ask why I'm not going.

The typical turn in which a character is activated is: Activate a character and roll it's dice. You only get one action so that was it and many people don't feel the need to say "Your turn" after rolling.

The problem with not having an acknowledged "I've ended my turn / it's your turn" step in the rules is caused by cards (mainly characters) that have the After/may effect on their card.

Examples:
Vader: After you activate this character you may force an opponent to choose and discard a card from their hand.

Baka-Tik: After an opponent's character is defeated, you may ready this character.

Jabba: After you activate this character, you may reroll a Yellow die.

Rey: After you play an upgrade on this character, you may take one additional action.

There are more cards, but you get the point.

All of these after/may abilities can and will be missed by some players. These aren't "mandatory abilities" that their opponent should need to tip them to. You don't tell your chess opponent that they could checkmate you if they miss it.

The only way to keep things moving along smoothly for both players and to avoid someone rushing their opponent is to have, either a verbal "It's your turn now" signal (which is the simplest) or a physical object that is manipulated to signal your turn is over, added to the rules as the last thing a player does on their turn.

What do you all think about this?

Hopefully I haven't missed something obvious, but if I have please point it out to me.

I run into trouble because in my head I know I am done. A simple prompt "are you done?" works pretty well.

I would also suggest you prompt him to understand that the use of Vader's ability is optional so you expect him to tell you he is using it. Seems to me, he knew he had the ability, he knew you knew he had the ability and was waiting for you to discard a card without being told. So from his POV you may have been slowing the game down.

In general I think this is just a matter of talking to each other and talking through your turn. "I play this card, spending 2 resources and taking the dice. Your turn." people tend to echo the process if you do it, they do it.

I run into trouble because in my head I know I am done. A simple prompt "are you done?" works pretty well.

I would also suggest you prompt him to understand that the use of Vader's ability is optional so you expect him to tell you he is using it. Seems to me, he knew he had the ability, he knew you knew he had the ability and was waiting for you to discard a card without being told. So from his POV you may have been slowing the game down.

In general I think this is just a matter of talking to each other and talking through your turn. "I play this card, spending 2 resources and taking the dice. Your turn." people tend to echo the process if you do it, they do it.

I understand what you are saying, and as I mentioned, I agree that in casual games that is the way to play and the way I do play.

The issue I was trying to convey was that in a tournament setting this kind of hand holding situation should not be present. The way that it is now it creates an awkward play situation that could easily be remedied.

I agree, a physical or verbal cue indicating that your turn has finished would streamline things, and avoid the sticky situation with missed opportunities and optional abilities.

At this point, I remind my opponent on the first turn ('Am I discarding? Are you taking an extra action?') and after that they're on their own - two Mississippi and I'm starting my turn. I'm not good enough to play my deck and someone else's.

Having a line about "You must state that your turn is done" in the rules is useless. Players wont use it anyway because it is so obvious in their head and I dont see judges giving game lost for that.

Note that "after" effect triggers automatically, so technically the choice is mandatory.

Another thing to consider: trigger is "activate this character" - that means it should be added to the queue immediately when he turns Vader card. If he doesn't say anything after the roll, the activation is done and it's technically too late (it's not really "after" - people are often confused by the words before/after).

So I understand why you think this is a problem.

I think this is more a sportsmanship problem. Each player will have own opinion in that matter. Some players don't want to "help" opponent, so they will wait 2 seconds and do their action.

I think this is more a sportsmanship problem. Each player will have own opinion in that matter. Some players don't want to "help" opponent, so they will wait 2 seconds and do their action.

There's helping your opponent catch a missed opportunity, and then there's effectively playing a solo game.

I hope you take the time to work with others

Just be a sport

Note that "after" effect triggers automatically, so technically the choice is mandatory.

I would submit that Luke's ability is what is meant by mandatory ability under the tournament doc. quoted above.

Luke: After you activate this character, draw a card.

There is no may in Luke's ability so it has to trigger and be added to the queue and resolve.

Another thing to consider: trigger is "activate this character" - that means it should be added to the queue immediately when he turns Vader card. If he doesn't say anything after the roll, the activation is done and it's technically too late (it's not really "after" - people are often confused by the words before/after).

I think this techniquely wrong, but in practice works out virtually the same in nearly every instance.

------

Rulebook pg16

After Abilities

If, during the course of a game, an after ability meets its trigger condition, it resolves following the resolution of the trigger condition. Unlike before abilities, after abilities do not interrupt the flow of the game, and instead wait their turn in the queue to resolve.

-------

Since the action of activating a character includes exhausting the card and rolling all of its dice any after ability that triggered on activating the character would resolve last.

I think communicating with the other person is the key not adding a rule to be able to take from them. Don't be that person

I hope you take the time to work with others

I don't know if your comment was to me or not so I just wanted to take the time to say that I was addressing a potential issue in the game in tournament settings. I definitely wasn't encouraging unsportsmanlike play.

I think communicating with the other person is the key not adding a rule to be able to take from them. Don't be that person

What!? A social interaction in a game!? Are you crazy? What is this non-sense!?!

Funny, 20 years I've been playing Magic and I never had this problem. A general "my turn?" after a second or two usually suffices, but I figured that'd be common sense.

Note that "after" effect triggers automatically, so technically the choice is mandatory.

I would submit that Luke's ability is what is meant by mandatory ability under the tournament doc. quoted above.

Luke: After you activate this character, draw a card.

There is no may in Luke's ability so it has to trigger and be added to the queue and resolve.

Another thing to consider: trigger is "activate this character" - that means it should be added to the queue immediately when he turns Vader card. If he doesn't say anything after the roll, the activation is done and it's technically too late (it's not really "after" - people are often confused by the words before/after).

I think this techniquely wrong, but in practice works out virtually the same in nearly every instance.

------

Rulebook pg16

After Abilities

If, during the course of a game, an after ability meets its trigger condition, it resolves following the resolution of the trigger condition. Unlike before abilities, after abilities do not interrupt the flow of the game, and instead wait their turn in the queue to resolve.

-------

Since the action of activating a character includes exhausting the card and rolling all of its dice any after ability that triggered on activating the character would resolve last.

You are confusing resolving and triggering.

Funny, 20 years I've been playing Magic and I never had this problem. A general "my turn?" after a second or two usually suffices, but I figured that'd be common sense.

I kind of agree with this - keeps it simple.

Having said that, I can also see the OP's point that if the other player is just sat there, having forgotten about their "may" condition and expecting you to play, when you interrupt their reverie to ask "My turn?" you're potentially clueing them into the fact that you've spotted there was more they could do. So they might then spot their unplayed "may" condition, effectively with your help, when if they declared they were done they would not have.

But yeah. Keep it simple. Feign ignorance with a slightly derpy "My turn?"

I hope you take the time to work with others

I don't know if your comment was to me or not so I just wanted to take the time to say that I was addressing a potential issue in the game in tournament settings. I definitely wasn't encouraging unsportsmanlike play.

You are encouraging unsportsmanlike play or it is what your example seem to say. You are mad because a "you are done?" helps an opponent notiice one of his effect. It's maybe frustrating but let face it. Anytime you are going to sit against someone worht playing with Vader, you are gonna loose a card each turn. That game doesn't need an extra rule for you to exploit.

Is there any possible scenario in which a player would opt NOT to trigger Darth Vader's ability? In a tournament setting I mean.

Based on the results of his roll he's going to resolve Kylo's special next and doesn't want his opponent to potentially discard a high value card.

Edit: I meant resolve.

Is there any possible scenario in which a player would opt NOT to trigger Darth Vader's ability? In a tournament setting I mean.

Mind Probe, maybe one.

Ehh I can see this from both standpoints. Like us magic players usually we say done or end of turn. Sometimes I might have to say " are you done" as the hand movement or face gesture of my opponent made to state "I am done" is not enough. If your sitting doing nothing for a period of time after dong your move I will ask "are you done". If your thinking to long after a move I will ask and if no answer I will declare your done. People in magic have this issue of not responding to a request causing the match to draw out and go to time. Some do this on purpose to have you get frustrated and lose track of the match or moves that might be done.

In effect the OP is being unsportsman like and trying to force/create a missed oppertunity no end of turn marker is required. It wasn't required in magic for 20+ years, just common courtesy.

If I was deciding whether to force my opponent to discard or let him go and he took his play, while I was deciding, I would consider that unsportsman like conduct and report him. Some people play fast some people play slower being in many tournaments I have encountered all kinds of people.

Your valid options are to 1) hurry your opponent and ask them if they are done (yes you may be reminding them that there is something they can do) or 2) get a judge to watch and see if they are intentionally stalling the game.

Keep in mind the rules of tournament play require players to be competent with the rules if they are not they won't be playing.

You've got to be kidding me...First there were people upset about having to offer their deck to cut, now people need rules on how to end a turn? I've been playing TCGs for most of my life and most of this stuff is second nature to me now, but I can't imagine meeting someone who literally can't acknowledge that they ended their turn. I know a turn is super short in this game, but come on. Do you stuff then say, I end my turn, DONE, problem solved, no rules just common sense.

... I know a turn is super short in this game, but come on. Do you stuff then say, I end my turn, DONE, problem solved, no rules just common sense.

Basically this is the gist of my argument. I can't for the life of me figure out how people can't just acknowledge that they are done with their turn so the other person can go. Common sense is wonderful, but not everyone uses it unfortunately. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

... I know a turn is super short in this game, but come on. Do you stuff then say, I end my turn, DONE, problem solved, no rules just common sense.

Basically this is the gist of my argument. I can't for the life of me figure out how people can't just acknowledge that they are done with their turn so the other person can go. Common sense is wonderful, but not everyone uses it unfortunately. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

Simply my own opinion, but very few actions or moments in Destiny create this problem. It feels rather burdensome to have to say "I'm done" after I play every obviously single action, just so we've got a nice consistent pattern for you to make sure not to risk reminding your opponent about an ability.