Hello

I wanted to know how others handle the Influence power "in-universe", but first things first:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the movies, when a Force user makes someone believe something untrue, they always state the lie out loud ("These are not droids you are looking for.").

What I wonder, should that be mandatory, or can you make someone believe the lie without speaking.

e.g.

I stealth into a room and make the guard believe he needs to go to the toilet. If I said that out loud, he would obviously detect me and probably sound the alarm, but if I could activate the power with only thinking it, I would be able to remain stealthed.

Also, how complex should the lies be? Are they restricted to one liners like above, or can they be elaborate constructs ("You are not a stormtrooper, but a rebel spy, and I am actually an ISB agent who caught you, and you surrender now because you know I have crushing evidence of your betrayal").

We always see Jedi say the line to the recipient, ergo, you always need to say the line imo.

If you stealth in and are successful, then there would be no alarm raised, if you aren't, practice more at influence and less at Stealth....

We don't see Jedi write novels when they use it, so, you need to keep it simple for the simple minded imo...

My general rule of thumb is that, if your opposed Discipline check succeeds, you can state one fact per pip spent.

So the default is one statement ("These aren't the droids you're looking for") for one pip, but if you want to give more complex instructions you can. That means, though, that you have to be closer, can't affect as many people, and it won't last as long (i.e. not as many pips to spend on Range, Magnitude, and Duration upgrades).

Why stealth into the room in the first place? Just stroll up to the guard and say you're allowed to go in.

I'm of two minds on this. First, when we see Jedi use the "jedi Mind Trick", they do usually speak to the target(s) to influence them. Going by this, then typically, yes, I'd say you'd need to speak.

However. In Tales of the Jedi Nomi Sunrider had an ability, originally attributed to Battle Meditation (and in the D6 game was simply an aspect of said power), that allowed the Force user to simply create an image in his/her mind of the opponents turning on one another, and then causing that to occur moments later. In D20 this was a Force Skill called Battle Influence, which required the Battle Meditation feat as a prerequisite. The current FFG version of the Battle Meditation power does not include this aspect of the ability. However, theoretically, the Influence power could potentially be used for it, and thus, would not need verbal commands since the original ability did not use any verbal commands to activate. The user simply envisioned the desired outcome and it became reality, influencing her targets to turn on one another ant attack each other. In that sense, I'd say no, you wouldn't need to speak.

Like I said, it's a bit tricky.

Well, part of the reason for the line (and hand wave) is so that the audience knows that the character is doing something 'magical' to make the guard or merchant change their mind.

Imagine how confusing it would be watching ANH for the first time. 2 Stormtroopers walk up to Obi-Wan, Luke, and the droids.

Storm Trooper: "Hey Let me see your ID and the paperwork for those 2 droids."

Obi-Wan: Stares at the Stormtrooper

Storm Trooper: "We don't need to see their Identification."

Audience: WTF!!!!!!

The one force-using character who has the Influence power that I've played does speak, but they don't do the obvious telegraph-to-the-audience hand wave and hypnotic repetition thing in the process. They're much more subtle in their use of it though; to an outside observer it looks like the character is simply making a persuasive case or statement that is plausible in the context, whereas Obi-Wan's uses would be obviously abnormal to anyone looking on. This is partly a stylistic difference on the character's part but it also illustrates a philosophical difference - the Jedi came across as fairly cavalier about overriding the free will of 'lesser minds', while Azhani is fully aware of the ethical ramifications (and dangers) of doing so.

Didn't one of the rebels characters turn an AT-ST pilot on his own buddies with the Influence power? I really should watch that show...

When Old Ben is snooping around on the Death Star he influences two Storm troopers to go down a hall from a decent distance without words. So I would say no, however, he is a Jedi Master. PCs are usually not.

Didn't one of the rebels characters turn an AT-ST pilot on his own buddies with the Influence power? I really should watch that show...

Ezra Bridger took remote control of the pilot of the AT-ST walker, but I don’t know that he used the Influence power. Maybe there is something else that would be more appropriate?

EDIT: On reflection, maybe he remotely took over the walker instead of taking over the pilot? Isn’t there a new Force power for influencing mechanical objects with the Force?

When Old Ben is snooping around on the Death Star he influences two Storm troopers to go down a hall from a decent distance without words. So I would say no, however, he is a Jedi Master. PCs are usually not.

IIRC, that was Misdirect, not Influence. The description for Misdirect specifically calls out how it is a physical phenomenon as opposed to influencing the mind of someone else, and therefore can be used on droids and other entities that would otherwise be immune to the Force.

When Old Ben is snooping around on the Death Star he influences two Storm troopers to go down a hall from a decent distance without words. So I would say no, however, he is a Jedi Master. PCs are usually not.

IIRC, that was Misdirect, not Influence. The description for Misdirect specifically calls out how it is a physical phenomenon as opposed to influencing the mind of someone else, and therefore can be used on droids and other entities that would otherwise be immune to the Force.

Ah. I haven't been able to study the F&D CRB all too hard so I didn't know

Lots of interesting stances here.

Never thought about the fact that saying it out loud is just for the viewer, kinda diminishes the need for it ingame.

My general rule of thumb is that, if your opposed Discipline check succeeds, you can state one fact per pip spent.

I really like this one, it gives the power a limit without devaluing it completely.

Never thought about the fact that saying it out loud is just for the viewer, kinda diminishes the need for it ingame.

OTOH, there is the example of Watto who was unaffected by the attempts that Qui-Gon Jinn made to use Influence on him, and Qui-Gon definitely verbalized what he wanted and used hand motions to support that.

So, in my game that would be the standard template. You’d have to give me a good narrative reason why something else should work instead.

In addition to what JalekZem has said about the audience not understanding what was going on, I also feel that it gives a good in-universe explanation for why you don't have Force-users pretty much controlling everything without any hints for people to notice, it stops what would essentially being the Mind-Control Wizards from ruling everything with no one ever realising. However, if you are a fan of the "Darth Jar Jar" theory then you may allow them to get away with whispering or mouthing along with the target, maybe requiring them to have mastered it to a large degree first.