Nyarr had a really neat comment in response to a thread about why some people are not excited for epic ships.

I really wish that they would make the huge ship as obstacle rule legal for tournament play so everyone can get more use out of their huge ships, even if they don't play epic.

I didn't want to derail the thread, so I thought I'd start a new topic. For those of you who don't know, epic ships can be used as obstacles during cinematic play. Basically, the epic ship replaces 3 obstacle tokens. So if you brought an epic ship as your obstacles for a tournament, you would only have the one ship.

My question is, would allowing epic ships to be used as obstacles during standard play make the game too imbalanced? Sure, it will benefit some builds more than others, but doesn't that add to the strategy? We already have choices like debris vs. asteroids or big obstacles vs. small. Those choices also benefit some builds more than others. So again, is there some reason that I'm not seeing for why FFG should not implement this rule?

Seismic torps. Epic obstacle go boom.

nevermind

I would have to look, but isn't the space they take up far larger than any combo of obstacles? Not saying that is a good reason but a reason. you could fortress behind one very easily too, and with trick shot in the game it could actually be viable.

Seismic torps. Epic obstacle go boom.

Huge ship obstacles are already immune to attacks and cannot be destroyed, but Seismic Torpedoes aren't secondary weapons and they "remove the obstacle" rather than destroying it. They should work on huge ship obstacles just like any asteroid or debris cloud.

Sounds like fun, actually. You could very well end up with games that have no obstacles on the board after the first round, which is kind of interesting. It's possible that this will regulate itself, and overall I'm in favor of more obstacle choices.

I would have to look, but isn't the space they take up far larger than any combo of obstacles?

I think you can always find room to deploy two Raider-sized huge ships in the obstacles' zone while keeping proper spacing.

Budgernaut, I completely support this proposition. I think the only downside is that it limits options in flight. Supposing that one huge ship replaces three obstacles, you're now obligated to go around the whole 'cluster' instead of weaving through it. Interceptor-type ships won't like that. Okay, so I guess you could just fly over the thing and roll for damage. You're right, it helps some builds more than others, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

As for Seismic Torps, you have to think carefully about whether it actually helps you. Does your squad prefer wide-open space more than your opponent's squad? Are you taking the gamble to damage an opponent for a long-term negative effect by taking out that huge obstacle? Yeah, I can't see a good reason not to include huge ships as obstacles in tournament play. More options!

I'm a TO who always tries to run unusual tournament formats, so I'm thinking about doing Huge ship obstacles as a special feature of one of my upcoming tournaments. The rules would be something like this:

• Each player brings 2 normal asteroids/debris.
• Each table will have a Rebel Transport or Gozanti provided by the TO (between me and my friends, we have enough to do this, so players don't have to bring their own) that is added to the obstacle pool for that table.
• Obstacle placement proceeds as normal, except each player ends up placing only two obstacles, and the leftover fourth asteroid/debris is not used.
• Game proceeds as normal from there, using the rules for Huge ships as obstacles.

I'm also thinking about saying that the Huge ship obstacle has to be beyond range 3 of the edge, instead of range 2, to cut down on people wanting to just drop it as close as possible to one of the starting areas. I'd rather see the Huge ship obstacles taking up space in the middle of the board, which to me is more interesting.

The idea here is that by providing a Huge ship obstacle for every table, and this being advertised in advance, everyone is on an equal footing in terms of planning for this tournament.

Seismic torps. Epic obstacle go boom.

I would note that you would need a torp carrier with seismically for that, hardly a typical tournament include, and that this would have to explicitly bypass the epic ships may not be destroyed when surfing as obstacles rule.

I would have to look, but isn't the space they take up far larger than any combo of obstacles?

I think you can always find room to deploy two Raider-sized huge ships in the obstacles' zone while keeping proper spacing.

In my opinion if this was eventually faq'd for standard/organized play then the rule should be

"The player may choose 1 epic ship obstacle or a combination of three debris or small asteroids. Once set in play all formal rules as to obstacle damage apply"

I like it.

In my opinion if this was eventually faq'd for standard/organized play then the rule should be

"The player may choose 1 epic ship obstacle or a combination of three debris or small asteroids. Once set in play all formal rules as to obstacle damage apply"

I'm curious what the significance of that last line is. Is there something informal about the huge ship damage rules?

I'm a TO who always tries to run unusual tournament formats, so I'm thinking about doing Huge ship obstacles as a special feature of one of my upcoming tournaments. The rules would be something like this:

• Each player brings 2 normal asteroids/debris.
• Each table will have a Rebel Transport or Gozanti provided by the TO (between me and my friends, we have enough to do this, so players don't have to bring their own) that is added to the obstacle pool for that table.
• Obstacle placement proceeds as normal, except each player ends up placing only two obstacles, and the leftover fourth asteroid/debris is not used.
• Game proceeds as normal from there, using the rules for Huge ships as obstacles.

I'm also thinking about saying that the Huge ship obstacle has to be beyond range 3 of the edge, instead of range 2, to cut down on people wanting to just drop it as close as possible to one of the starting areas. I'd rather see the Huge ship obstacles taking up space in the middle of the board, which to me is more interesting.

The idea here is that by providing a Huge ship obstacle for every table, and this being advertised in advance, everyone is on an equal footing in terms of planning for this tournament.

I have run a tournament similar to this, except each mat had an epic ship obstacle in the center of the mat & the first player chose the orientation of the ship, then the second player placed the first normal obstacle in the normal manner. The players used all six normal obstacles if able. Most of the players loved the "surprise" format, except one player who rage quit after round 2. No player knew about the epic ships before the game, and he thought the change in rules without telling everyone ahead of time was unfair...whatever, it was a fun Con-Tourny with excellent prize support.

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

*snip*

I have run a tournament similar to this, except each mat had an epic ship obstacle in the center of the mat & the first player chose the orientation of the ship, then the second player placed the first normal obstacle in the normal manner. The players used all six normal obstacles if able. Most of the players loved the "surprise" format, except one player who rage quit after round 2. No player knew about the epic ships before the game, and he thought the change in rules without telling everyone ahead of time was unfair...whatever, it was a fun Con-Tourny with excellent prize support.

Good to hear that the format was a success overall. I do have a lot of sympathy for the player who was upset, though. Actually rage quitting is not a good response, but I understand why he'd dislike the surprise. My personal belief is that no competitive event should ever have a surprise rule, unless "There will be a surprise rule" is explicitly communicated ahead of time and no one who knows the twist ahead of time is playing in the tournament.

In my opinion if this was eventually faq'd for standard/organized play then the rule should be

"The player may choose 1 epic ship obstacle or a combination of three debris or small asteroids. Once set in play all formal rules as to obstacle damage apply"

I'm curious what the significance of that last line is. Is there something informal about the huge ship damage rules?

No. But this may eliminate any confusion of Epic gameplay rules in regards to running it Huge ships; destruction, etc. Basically moreso for clarity.

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

When you mention mines, are you referring to the ones from the TFA core set? I'm not a huge fan of those for tournament play. I'd totally throw them on the table for casual play if somebody suggested it, though. But maybe I'm just too closed-minded.

I'm not familiar enough with epic debris to make a statement on that; the only huge ship I own so far is the Gozanti-class cruiser.

In my opinion if this was eventually faq'd for standard/organized play then the rule should be

"The player may choose 1 epic ship obstacle or a combination of three debris or small asteroids. Once set in play all formal rules as to obstacle damage apply"

I'm curious what the significance of that last line is. Is there something informal about the huge ship damage rules?

No. But this may eliminate any confusion of Epic gameplay in regards to running it Huge ships; destruction, etc. Basically moreso for clarity.

Well, I think the point is that nothing in the game can actually "deal damage" to obstacles. As mentioned above, Seismic Torpedoes simply remove the obstacle. It says nothing of "destroying," so it bypasses the "cannot be destroyed" rule.

I prefer the normal rocks and kinda think the epic ship just adds a bunch of unnecessary baggage.

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

When you mention mines, are you referring to the ones from the TFA core set? I'm not a huge fan of those for tournament play. I'd totally throw them on the table for casual play if somebody suggested it, though. But maybe I'm just too closed-minded.

I'm not familiar enough with epic debris to make a statement on that; the only huge ship I own so far is the Gozanti-class cruiser.

In my opinion if this was eventually faq'd for standard/organized play then the rule should be

"The player may choose 1 epic ship obstacle or a combination of three debris or small asteroids. Once set in play all formal rules as to obstacle damage apply"

I'm curious what the significance of that last line is. Is there something informal about the huge ship damage rules?

No. But this may eliminate any confusion of Epic gameplay in regards to running it Huge ships; destruction, etc. Basically moreso for clarity.

Well, I think the point is that nothing in the game can actually "deal damage" to obstacles. As mentioned above, Seismic Torpedoes simply remove the obstacle. It says nothing of "destroying," so it bypasses the "cannot be destroyed" rule.

Ah okay. I was just thinking that a definitive line would be which referrred to faq'd information would help, but you're both right not needed.

Revised:

"The player may choose 1 epic ship as an obstacle or a combination of three debris or small asteroids."

Well two questions that matter. One interaction with seismic torpedoes, and two does collisions result in an instant death for a dice roll. And those are just concerns a TO might have. Other concerns is will there be a balance shift between those that have the huge ships from those that have not. As you see from some of the posts there is already some contention on this.

But lets hypothesis these are the conditions met for huge ships as obstacles.

• count as all three obstacle tokens
• is not removed by seismic torpedoes (but area effect still applies)
• if a ship collides roll a red die on <hit> or <crit> the ship is destroyed.
• If a ship maneuver template overlaps but base does not does it have to roll for damage and does it still get's it's attack?

So how would that affect balance in the turn 0 and what effects could it have on standard competitive format?

Also does the huge ship's faction have to match the faction of the player who is fielding it as an obstacle?

Well two questions that matter. One interaction with seismic torpedoes, and two does collisions result in an instant death for a dice roll. And those are just concerns a TO might have. Other concerns is will there be a balance shift between those that have the huge ships from those that have not. As you see from some of the posts there is already some contention on this.

But lets hypothesis these are the conditions met for huge ships as obstacles.

• count as all three obstacle tokens
• is not removed by seismic torpedoes (but area effect still applies)
• if a ship collides roll a red die on <hit> or <crit> the ship is destroyed.

So how would that affect balance in the turn 0 and what effects could it have on standard competitive format?

This is in the huge ship rules. If your base overlaps the huge ship, you treat it like a collision and roll 1 attack die, suffering any damage or critical damage result. If your maneuver template overlaps the ship base, but you do not end your movement on it, then it is like flying over other ships and you take no penalty. A huge ship still obstructs attacks like debris or asteroids do.

I can see what you mean about the turn 0 strategy. I think that's just part of gig. If you choose to take a huge ship, you understand that you will place your obstacle first and your opponent is free to place their 3 obstacles afterward. But your last question is basically the question I'm posing for this entire thread. I want to know how this would affect standard tournament play to see if there are any huge obstacles* to implementing this.

*pun intended

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

When you mention mines, are you referring to the ones from the TFA core set?

I mean Proximity Mine tokens, Cluster Mine tokens, Conner Net tokens (and any other bombs that remain in place until a ship hits them). That is, you could select a mine token as one of your "obstacles".

Well two questions that matter. One interaction with seismic torpedoes, and two does collisions result in an instant death for a dice roll. And those are just concerns a TO might have. Other concerns is will there be a balance shift between those that have the huge ships from those that have not. As you see from some of the posts there is already some contention on this.

But lets hypothesis these are the conditions met for huge ships as obstacles.

• count as all three obstacle tokens
• is not removed by seismic torpedoes (but area effect still applies)
• if a ship collides roll a red die on <hit> or <crit> the ship is destroyed.

So how would that affect balance in the turn 0 and what effects could it have on standard competitive format?

1. If a Huge ship is used it is considered "an obstacle", and not a Huge Ship so obstable rules apply (obstruction, rolling for damage, actions, range rule for defense-offense)

2. As to the seismic torpedo, I'd be okay with normal game effects for obstacles still being in play. As once the Huge Ship is in play as an obstacle its effects are applied in the manner "obstacle"

3. If a ship hits it and rolls damage, is the issue that I believe would need to be considered. Although I'm in the camp that normal obstacle rules apply. I believe if you collided with that (Ship/obstacle) and you on a hit/crit were removed it'd be to game changing. Adding a Huge Ship as an obstacle already creates many maneuver and strategetic advantages/disadvantages. Penalizing you for hitting it I believe would be unfair.

* For instance let's say we have a CR-90 and 3 pieces of debris and the are all within Range 3 of each other the skill it would require to joust, and maneuver would increase gameplay, but may also be difficult enough on its own to then have ships be destroyed on a hit/crit to the (Huge Ship/obstacle)

- Dash Rendar pilot/crew would become very valuable

- Trick Shot as well

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

When you mention mines, are you referring to the ones from the TFA core set?

I mean Proximity Mine tokens, Cluster Mine tokens, Conner Net tokens (and any other bombs that remain in place until a ship hits them). That is, you could select a mine token as one of your "obstacles".

Ohhhh, those. I don't think we're considering those at this point. If you want to use mines, I think you need a dedicated mine-dropper unless you're doing some sort of scenario. What we're trying to address here is the following logic:

1) People don't like buying huge ships because they "never use them" and usually play the standard format.

2) Huge ships have rules for being treated as obstacles and the standard format also uses obstacles.

3) If we incorporate the huge-ship-as-obstacle rule into standard tournament play, people may feel less "cheated" when they buy a huge ship for the power upgrades since they can still use the ship in standard play (as an obstacle instead of a ship).

4) So, are there any game-breaking or format-breaking issues that would prevent FFG from adding this rule and helping their consumers get extra use out of their plastic huge ships?

While we're on the topic, what do we think about adding mine tokens and epic-sized debris?

When you mention mines, are you referring to the ones from the TFA core set?

I mean Proximity Mine tokens, Cluster Mine tokens, Conner Net tokens (and any other bombs that remain in place until a ship hits them). That is, you could select a mine token as one of your "obstacles".

Ohhhh, those. I don't think we're considering those at this point. If you want to use mines, I think you need a dedicated mine-dropper unless you're doing some sort of scenario. What we're trying to address here is the following logic:

1) People don't like buying huge ships because they "never use them" and usually play the standard format.

2) Huge ships have rules for being treated as obstacles and the standard format also uses obstacles.

3) If we incorporate the huge-ship-as-obstacle rule into standard tournament play, people may feel less "cheated" when they buy a huge ship for the power upgrades since they can still use the ship in standard play (as an obstacle instead of a ship).

4) So, are there any game-breaking or format-breaking issues that would prevent FFG from adding this rule and helping their consumers get extra use out of their plastic huge ships

I don't believe so.

Edited.