I'm a little confused by the standard argument here.

There aren't enough potential large ships in the Star Wars universe outside of Rebel/Imperial iterations?

My argument is that a third faction simply isn't needed from a design space perspective - it has nothing to do with what ships a third faction would include. X-Wing doesn't have as many baked-in overarching tactical elements as Armada (namely Commanders and Objectives), which is why it needed a third faction to create new play style options in order to keep the game from getting stale.

Instead of a third faction, I think we now see that Armada benefits from campaign play as the Corellian Conflict set has really energized local groups. The added benefit here is that you don't have to buy an entire faction's worth of ships just to get a few upgrade cards like you would in X-Wing. You only have to buy 1 campaign box. It's a much cheaper way to go for the player base.

I agree with this. If FFG released scum for Armada, would it fail like it did for X-Wing? And would I be forced to buy ships I don't want for the "next" TRC or FCT?

Why does Armada need scum? I'd rather see Republic and CIS because they actually have a legit reason to be a part of Armada. You know, full scale civil war and full size fleets.

So to all the yay-ers, why does Armada need scum?

Please no... The third faction nearly ruined x-wing for me. It's a *TWO* player game. Only two factions can be in play at one time. Why would I want to invest in a third faction??? It does nothing except reduce the list building options available to me, as right away I need to throw out 1/3rd of my ships. I am tired of creating ugly card proxies.

I came over from X-wing (don't hit me) and the last thing I purchased was the first Scum and Villainy wave. I was stoked to play the new faction, being a fan of the PC game Empire at War's expansion. But I never even opened the ships or used them. I kept building teams that I just couldn't get into, mainly because they couldn't compete.

I know Armada is a different environment than X-wing. It's more laid back and gentlemanly style was something I immediately liked. The competitive nature is there in Armada, but not to the degree of... well... not to the level X-wing has taken it to, at least in my experience.

That's why now is the perfect time for a wave that introduces a new faction to Armada. Think about it, another wave of Rebel and Imperial ships will put a third faction right in the same boat as It was in X-wing: cool, but not competitive.

Now competition isn't everything, and don't go thinking I'm some trophy diver or what have you, but it's not much fun to have something new in a tabletop game and just get wiped off the map each time you field it. Also, it could result in overcompensation, such as with the Jumpmaster in X-wing. But if they released a third faction as the next wave it wouldn't be left behind. A wave with a capital ship, two medium vessels, a small ship and a flotilla, and a pack of fighters with extra cardboard to "borrow" the bounty hunters most people already own and they're on pace. But it another wave drops with just Rebs and Imps, well...


(Also, this assumes a third faction will also be Scum and Villainy)


Thoughts?

Honestly I wouldn't have a problem with a third faction but even in Legends most independent groups didn't have fleets to match the empire or rebellion (except for the heresy that is the Zhan consortium) even the Black Sun (the largest Legends criminal faction) didn't have a fleet that could match the rebels or empire.

I'm a little confused by the standard argument here.

There aren't enough potential large ships in the Star Wars universe outside of Rebel/Imperial iterations?

My argument is that a third faction simply isn't needed from a design space perspective - it has nothing to do with what ships a third faction would include. X-Wing doesn't have as many baked-in overarching tactical elements as Armada (namely Commanders and Objectives), which is why it needed a third faction to create new play style options in order to keep the game from getting stale.

Instead of a third faction, I think we now see that Armada benefits from campaign play as the Corellian Conflict set has really energized local groups. The added benefit here is that you don't have to buy an entire faction's worth of ships just to get a few upgrade cards like you would in X-Wing. You only have to buy 1 campaign box. It's a much cheaper way to go for the player base.

I agree with this. If FFG released scum for Armada, would it fail like it did for X-Wing? And would I be forced to buy ships I don't want for the "next" TRC or FCT?

Why does Armada need scum? I'd rather see Republic and CIS because they actually have a legit reason to be a part of Armada. You know, full scale civil war and full size fleets.

So to all the yay-ers, why does Armada need scum?

Scum and Villainy is just my personal preference, it doesn't have to be that. I was mainly concerned with the timing of a new faction being released. While I'd like to see pirates etc, the factions from the prequels are overdue for major representation in a FFG miniatures game, aside from the nods X-wing has thrown their way

I suspect the best you can hope for in that regard is any kind of use the ships of that era see in, like, Rebels.

If that show suddenly sees the use of Clone War Era ships, I might actually expect them to show up. But still probably not with their original factions.

I still like the idea of a "card-only" Scum faction for a boxed set / "campaign".

Pirate "admirals" and crew that would somehow allow you to use the ships of other factions in some new way. Could be limited to only Medium or Small based ships, and have their own squadron bases/cards. You wouldn't even have to stick to giving -specific- "scum" versions of ships, though you could include a handful of "scum only" titles to customize existing ones.

Perhaps an admiral that lets you include ships from either faction in your fleet, but they count as belonging to the "scum" faction instead of their normal faction for purposes of titles or upgrades (so no Rebel or Imperial crew). Or even individual officers that have the affect on specific ships.

Include some other "scum only" upgrades and crew, and you could create a whole new play style with just a single "cardboard expansion" box set.

Plus, if you tied it into a specific campaign narrative, you could even "justify" fleet-level engagements with the faction.

This is likely to be the reality if we get anything. It might lead to some older ships being boxed together with new paint jobs and maybe some new designs, but the initial onset will probably just be a campaign box with cardboard changes

The other side of it, Flavorabledeez, is that this, to us, is another thread, and very quick search of the Armada Forum for "Scum" would have turned up numerous previous threads - seemingly answering your question before it is even asked...

This leads some people to believe, that with the question already asked, and the answer seemingly made, why the thread was created, if not to be some sort of taunt.

Of course, just as legitimately, it could have been an honest question asked by someone...

But different people attribute different meanings to things, given the lack of information... That's why you got the responses that you did, and why half of the responders seem to be rolling their eyes and sighing...

With the deliberate troll and troll-like threads we've had recently, unfortunately, wether it was intended or not - the lack of research certainly bit the 'honest question' theme away for a lot of people.

I think the Armada scale is wrong for scum. Why would any pirate cartel have reason to attack a full ISD?

I also think with how FFG has released fighter packs already you'd get a ton of duplicate squads. In X Wing at the time the only scum aligned characters were in the Firespray. So just one upgrade. Not a whole new set duplicated

In the Hand of Thrawn books a small fleet of pirates attacks the Imperial Flagship with Grand Admiral Pellaeon aboard. They are unsuccessful but make a decent show of it. I think actually the scale of Armada is ok for Scum because we are never really commanding a fleet so much as a combat patrol. The armies we field at 400-500 points are rather small scale in the scheme of things so I believe it can work. I'd love to see multiple factions and growth in all different directions so we are truly playing a game that resembles the galaxys of star wars rather than just the conflict between rebels and empire.

The other side of it, Flavorabledeez, is that this, to us, is another thread, and very quick search of the Armada Forum for "Scum" would have turned up numerous previous threads - seemingly answering your question before it is even asked...

This leads some people to believe, that with the question already asked, and the answer seemingly made, why the thread was created, if not to be some sort of taunt.

Of course, just as legitimately, it could have been an honest question asked by someone...

But different people attribute different meanings to things, given the lack of information... That's why you got the responses that you did, and why half of the responders seem to be rolling their eyes and sighing...

With the deliberate troll and troll-like threads we've had recently, unfortunately, wether it was intended or not - the lack of research certainly bit the 'honest question' theme away for a lot of people.

Seriously though I don't think this started as a troll but that "other" guy, who we'll just call Admiral, was trolling. "**** you BEN!!"

I don;t think it was, either.

Merely commenting on how some people could see it that way.

As it is, I don't feel I have much of an opinion on Scum, either way... I mostly play Rebels these days, and every wave makes it seem like a new game anyway.

Drassy does have a point, we've got into something of a more hostile 'troll thread' territory, lately. No offense meant or created in my mind.

I wouldn't mind a third faction, but by the same standard I'm also fine with keeping the 2. Now, Scum and Villainy is the X-wing name.... why do I seem to recall it being called something else in either the card game or Imperial Assault? Something like Mercenaries, etc. Anyhow, I do think it could work, and I could see it working as both a stand alone or as a composite force where you take X upgrade to allow a certain percentile of other faction ships, just as with Imperial Assault (Essentially, acting as the neutral pool, ignoring faction uniques, but also being able to comprise their own group. Say 1/3, much like fighters). That way the notion that they are just small or medium ships/flotillas, could work perfectly well without them needing to invest/invent large ships just to balance it out and give it some size variation.

That said, what do we have scum wise for recognizable potential ships? I mean, we have marauder corvettes and maybe dreadnaughts, tons of fighters, I'm just coming up a little short for recognizable warships. Which is usually what people are getting at I guess. I have faith that a 3rd faction is possible and could be added, but it does depend on implementation. Neat notion about it being campaign linked, that could be a fun thing.

What has scum go to offer as a faction?

Plenty. A lot of people here sound like they dived out of XWing when Scum came out? Well, in my opinion they've now become the most fun and intriguing faction to list build with in the game.

Basically, the designers used the opportunity to introduce a host of new thematic and faction specific upgrades and tactics to the game. The faction focuses on gambits, self-sacrificial maneuvers, over-specialised units that unhinge a list but increase effectiveness, and the best design space in the game (illicits). So yeah. They're bloody great fun.

Aside from that, balance becomes more expansive and thus more intriguing, games become more diverse, blue-on-blue fights - that occur with such regularity in Armada - would be greatly reduced, and a ton of new ships and characters would be introduced to the game.

What has scum go to offer as a faction?

Plenty. A lot of people here sound like they dived out of XWing when Scum came out? Well, in my opinion they've now become the most fun and intriguing faction to list build with in the game.

Basically, the designers used the opportunity to introduce a host of new thematic and faction specific upgrades and tactics to the game. The faction focuses on gambits, self-sacrificial maneuvers, over-specialised units that unhinge a list but increase effectiveness, and the best design space in the game (illicits). So yeah. They're bloody great fun.

Aside from that, balance becomes more expansive and thus more intriguing, games become more diverse, blue-on-blue fights - that occur with such regularity in Armada - would be greatly reduced, and a ton of new ships and characters would be introduced to the game.

And Armada already has, as mentioned several times in this thread alone, a lot of ways to diversify your builds with Commanders, Objectives and the number of upgrades each ship can take. It really is a more in-depth game than X-Wing and a lot of the bland feel X-Wing can feel with Meta-Builds that are repeat offenders at championships just are not being seen in Armada yet.

But let's see what emphasis FFG will be putting into their tournaments compared to campaigns this coming year. We may see kits geared more to the Campaign than tournaments and campaigns seem more natural to Armada anyways.

I don;t think it was, either.

Merely commenting on how some people could see it that way.

As it is, I don't feel I have much of an opinion on Scum, either way... I mostly play Rebels these days, and every wave makes it seem like a new game anyway.

And don't think Armada holds the monopoly on trolls. I've been through this before on the Force and Destiny forums. I honestly wanted to know if people were making a good go of running an entire campaign with force users and some of the more clever hooks their GMs had thrown at them. They ripped me a new one cause they thought I was trolling the core concept. Took me a bit to show them that I honestly wanted to know.

Not to change the conversation, but since this is the second time I've been through this I'll try to lighten my approach in the future, but as someone newish to the forums if trolling is rampant to the point where folks are this easy to set off then maybe moderators might need to bring the hammer down for cross-forum harassment, assuming they don't already.

All of those things could have been done just as well *without* introducing a new faction. There could have been scum/mercenaries/bounty hunters available on both the rebel and imperial side with those same personalities -- they didn't need to be a faction.

What has scum go to offer as a faction?

Plenty. A lot of people here sound like they dived out of XWing when Scum came out? Well, in my opinion they've now become the most fun and intriguing faction to list build with in the game.

Basically, the designers used the opportunity to introduce a host of new thematic and faction specific upgrades and tactics to the game. The faction focuses on gambits, self-sacrificial maneuvers, over-specialised units that unhinge a list but increase effectiveness, and the best design space in the game (illicits). So yeah. They're bloody great fun.

Aside from that, balance becomes more expansive and thus more intriguing, games become more diverse, blue-on-blue fights - that occur with such regularity in Armada - would be greatly reduced, and a ton of new ships and characters would be introduced to the game.

Since I have very weak knowledge of SW Canon, why not a few Scum ships that could fight for either side? Though I'd like to see them in a campaign box based on smaller operations?

That being said, I think it'd be hard to have Scum right now.

I don't know about you guys, but with Wave 5 my head is exploding with all the possibilities!

There already is a rebel scum faction.

I would like a sort of "local/sector forces" expansions which are local authorities/ mercenaries that can work for both factions.

Please no... The third faction nearly ruined x-wing for me. It's a *TWO* player game. Only two factions can be in play at one time. Why would I want to invest in a third faction??? It does nothing except reduce the list building options available to me, as right away I need to throw out 1/3rd of my ships. I am tired of creating ugly card proxies.

I came over from X-wing (don't hit me) and the last thing I purchased was the first Scum and Villainy wave. I was stoked to play the new faction, being a fan of the PC game Empire at War's expansion. But I never even opened the ships or used them. I kept building teams that I just couldn't get into, mainly because they couldn't compete.

I know Armada is a different environment than X-wing. It's more laid back and gentlemanly style was something I immediately liked. The competitive nature is there in Armada, but not to the degree of... well... not to the level X-wing has taken it to, at least in my experience.

That's why now is the perfect time for a wave that introduces a new faction to Armada. Think about it, another wave of Rebel and Imperial ships will put a third faction right in the same boat as It was in X-wing: cool, but not competitive.

Now competition isn't everything, and don't go thinking I'm some trophy diver or what have you, but it's not much fun to have something new in a tabletop game and just get wiped off the map each time you field it. Also, it could result in overcompensation, such as with the Jumpmaster in X-wing. But if they released a third faction as the next wave it wouldn't be left behind. A wave with a capital ship, two medium vessels, a small ship and a flotilla, and a pack of fighters with extra cardboard to "borrow" the bounty hunters most people already own and they're on pace. But it another wave drops with just Rebs and Imps, well...

(Also, this assumes a third faction will also be Scum and Villainy)

Thoughts?

LOL!

God forbid there are more than two factions in a game. My SC fanboy self is dying right now.

SC?

LOL!

God forbid there are more than two factions in a game. My SC fanboy self is dying right now.

I want to see the Clone Wars and TFA fleets added in. I'd be down for running a droid fleet with a ton of droid fighters (and I do mean a TON, cause they should only be like 5-6 points apiece).

I see the recently announced C-ROC and see more of a likelihood of Scum getting introduced at some point. Might not be soon but one day. Better than Clone Wars stuff.

As in all things, it depends on execution. I think adding additional faction(s) could be a good thing from a gameplay standpoint, but the challenge would be, as has been pointed out, keeping it in theme without making it feel really forced. If they can do that, great.

The one thing that is freaking killing me though are the comparisons to X-Wings introduction of scum ships. At that scale there were cannonically a bunch of options. At the Armada scale...its a stretch. And again, as has been stated a bunch already, that is not an insignificant hurdle. Maybe not an insurmountable one either, but not to be dismissed out of hand.

So for the Scum faction we can wait breathlessly for... the C-ROC? Hondo's stolen shuttle?

Let's not forget that a large motivation for Scum is to get the Bounty Hunters, and their personal craft, into a playable game. FFG likely considered the options for making them all Empire and figured it was better to release them under a new faction. There are no such memorable starships for the Armada scene even if FFG wanted to step up and do them.

Scum also killed my Enthusiasm for X-wing. Not just because it's a faction I don't want to fly, not just because I'd be forced to collect those ships to run competitive lists, but also because Scum has dominated half the expansion wave since it came out. That means Rebels/Empire are shoved into a niche slot where we end up with something like the TIE Punisher for half a year, where it used to be two craft for each wave. I am not eager to reduce the content intake for the Rebellion/Empire because someone thought it was a good idea to shove entirely forgettable pirate ships at us.

Rather than spending their enegies to develop a scum faction, I would rather FFG used their energies to devise new units and mechanics for the factions we have now. The Corellian Campaign seems to be a great hit... I would rather FFG repeat that.

It would be so easy to do a scum faction and I bet they most likely will do it. I think they'll do what the did when the first released scum and have a pack that comes scum cardboard and let's you use rebel/imperial models. They most likely would have an entire wave be dedicated to scum like they did armada and obviously put really good cards both factions could use.

They'd have there version of a most wanted pack that would probably let you convert a nebulon b and cr90 corvette or 2. They'd have the cardboard and you would use your rebel models. It would most likely be packaged with its own scum ship and there's a ton out there they could use and they could draw from empire at war or some of the old clone wars ships. Maybe have a keldabe class cruiser as a medium ship and the cardboard for a nebulon and 2 cr90s and boom that's a 4 ship fleet right there of 1 medium and 3 small. Or let is be another small ship like the crusader corvette and maybe the cardboard for 2 nebulon b's and there's a 5 ship fleet in a box right there. They add in some fighters like the star vipers, kirahxz, Scyk, vassal, cloak shapes, or what ever. Then a stand alone ship or 2 and call in the next wave.

I believe it would sell and I know I would buy into it. It isn't hard to think there are forces that could have the kind of fleets we have in armada. This is not large scale fleet combat. The biggest thing you can have is 3 star destroyers which is in no way large scale. Even if scum doesn't have ships the size of mc80s and star destroyers who cares? That could be there thing where they are the force of small ships or small and medium ships. Check out empire at war forces of corruption for a list of possible ships and some look really good like the interceptor iv frigate, keldabe cruiser, and crusader corvette.

"Scum"-faction ships most likely wouldn't sell nearly as well as Imperial or Rebel ships. Unless they include "must have" upgrades.

But I for one don't want them to have "must have" upgrades (either really interesting, or really potent) because I have so little interest in any of the ships.

I'm telling you, the best way to do it is just cardboard, usable with whatever existing (and future) Rebel/Imperial ships they want. Being able to blend the options from the two real factions would in and of itself create a really unique set of options.

Oh man, several people on this thread are going to buy into Scum, FFG clearly needs to make this a thing now! Watch out, Rebel and Imperial fleets, the epic scale of Armada just decided to spend even more time in Jabbas Palace! Thrill with excitement as you field ships people only minorly care about and don't recognize in order to get another faction in a game that really doesn't need a third! Recreate all those great moments from the movies where the Scum faction did (placeholder) or when Black Sun (second placeholder). And who can forget the importance of Cor SEC to the battle of (......)!

If we're playing magic FFG wish machine, can I get named rebel y wing squadron Wes Janson who rolls 2 black bomber dice for damage? And heck, I'll help my Imperial friends out. Throw in Interceptor pilot Erisi Dlarit and give her counter 5 or something else just as ludicrous? I mean, if we're speculating wildly and all.

I would also like a way for Rebels to field ISDs like this guy Ben does at my gaming group. Classic Ben.