I'm a little confused by the standard argument here.

There aren't enough potential large ships in the Star Wars universe outside of Rebel/Imperial iterations?

Looking at Scum's roster in X-Wing gives you:

Mandalorian, Corellian, Black Sun Syndicate, Ex-republic etc etc. All very powerful agents in the Star Wars galaxy.

In fact Scum in Xwing tends to act as a dumping ground for everything not rebel/empire in the galaxy, rather than a tightly-defined set of pirates and traders. Why then would this be seen as a limited field of ships? I know they're not as iconic as ISDS, but they're certainly there in enough numbers to form a faction...

And as far as a Scum faction taking on a full ISD, what reason does the Rebellion have?

Well the Rebellion's at war with the Empire so...

After all, where's my blockade running objective in this game?

It's in the Corellian Conflict campaign box. One of the new objectives.

Somebody just got owned.

My copy of CC is on its way, and I've tried to avoid previews for it until all of my playgroup can take a look at it. But I did ask on an open forum about it, so thank you to those who answered

I'm a little confused by the standard argument here.

There aren't enough potential large ships in the Star Wars universe outside of Rebel/Imperial iterations?

Looking at Scum's roster in X-Wing gives you:

Mandalorian, Corellian, Black Sun Syndicate, Ex-republic etc etc. All very powerful agents in the Star Wars galaxy.

In fact Scum in Xwing tends to act as a dumping ground for everything not rebel/empire in the galaxy, rather than a tightly-defined set of pirates and traders. Why then would this be seen as a limited field of ships? I know they're not as iconic as ISDS, but they're certainly there in enough numbers to form a faction...

I think the standard feel is that fringe factions would not be able to gather the hundreds or thousands of personnel for a capitol ship, even if they could afford to get one running.

Ok, someone got snippety. You stated your opinion of wanting a third faction and we have our opinions as to why we most likely won't see one and we backed it up with evidence based on both Canon and Non-Canon reasons. And you're right, FFG can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't conflict with their own business practice. But that is no argument to use to try a bully anyone off your topic. By that logic alone we can say argue they should add in Star Trek ships because there is more evidence of a faction from that source than the crime syndicates in the Star Wars mythology.

Sorry dude, you're just in the wrong here based on that alone.

I can't fathom why people think that Scum & Villainy would lack the scope or scale to appear in Armada.

Seriously? No crime faction or independent system or cartel or defense force could must 2-4 capital ships and a few dozen fighters? In an entire galaxy of thousands of world and trillions of beings? How small and empty and pathetic do you think the galaxy is? The Empire wouldn't have needed so many Star Destroyers unless there were lots of systems and organizations that were capable of threatening such vessels, let alone smaller craft.

Even prior to joining the Rebellion, the Mon Calamarians alone had manufactured thousands of giant star cruisers, most of which saw service as passenger liners. So manufacturing vessels at that scale cannot be impossible for other organizations or groups. The Corellian Security Force must have had a substantial fleet. Xizor's small slice of the Black Sun possessed a giant skyhook. The Hutt Cartel has a standing navy, as does Mandalore. Look at all the factions that joined the Separatists' cause: the Banking Clans had fleets of their frigates, the Trade Federation had gianormous droid control ships and battleships which dwarfed star destroyers. The Commerce guild had battle cruisers, as did the Techno Union. And these are just the main players of the Confederacy, but clearly each of these subfaction members had large standing war-capable navies. You'd have to, even if you don't intend to fight the Empire, but just to defend your borders and escort your convoys.

Really, it would be unreasonable to think that most planets and organizations lacked capital ships. Look at our tiny little planet Earth--one planet out of trillions in our galaxy--there are hundreds of actively maintained and crewed naval warships out there, as both a deterrent and active defense force even despite a lack of active hostilities between powers. So you want us to believe that no galactic organization in Star Wars has access to a half-dozen capital ships except the Empire and the Alliance to Restore the Republic?

Besides, the new canon confirms that by the time of The Force Awakens, multiple pirate groups and independent organizations had captured Star Destroyers which they then put into their own service, so plenty of scum groups were apparently capable of taking on star destroyers (even if they didn't do it much while the Empire was still fully organized, and instead waited until opportunistic moments to rise up).


That being said, I would not mind seeing a Separatist Fleet in Armada (since there are so many beautiful ship and fighter types that could round it out). Surely cells of the Separatist Fleet survived and its remnants probably tried to resist the young Empire as long as possible (and we know from FFG art that they believe at least some separatist ships continued fighting, though as part of the Rebellion, which makes sense). It would be a bit more of a thematic stretch to imagine why Rebel fleets were squaring off with Separatist Fleets, but reasons could be found that would require a lot less mental gymnastics than justifying all of the Rebel vs Rebel mirror matches that happen in Armada.

Sad thread with angry people. Just because people "want" something does not mean it will make a good product. Let's just see what comes next .

EG, here's FFG Art that demonstrates that the Hutt Cartel istself has a fleet more than capable of filling out a 400pt list, and this is almost certainly just a fraction of the fleet available to the Cartel.

Sad thread with angry people. Just because people "want" something does not mean it will make a good product. Let's just see what comes next .

Why is this thread sad? Who is angry? Do you really need to attempt to misrepresent and dismiss the opinions of others because they hold an opinion differently than your own view?

I'm a little confused by the standard argument here.

There aren't enough potential large ships in the Star Wars universe outside of Rebel/Imperial iterations?

My argument is that a third faction simply isn't needed from a design space perspective - it has nothing to do with what ships a third faction would include. X-Wing doesn't have as many baked-in overarching tactical elements as Armada (namely Commanders and Objectives), which is why it needed a third faction to create new play style options in order to keep the game from getting stale.

Instead of a third faction, I think we now see that Armada benefits from campaign play as the Corellian Conflict set has really energized local groups. The added benefit here is that you don't have to buy an entire faction's worth of ships just to get a few upgrade cards like you would in X-Wing. You only have to buy 1 campaign box. It's a much cheaper way to go for the player base.

I'm a little confused by the standard argument here.

There aren't enough potential large ships in the Star Wars universe outside of Rebel/Imperial iterations?

My argument is that a third faction simply isn't needed from a design space perspective - it has nothing to do with what ships a third faction would include. X-Wing doesn't have as many baked-in overarching tactical elements as Armada (namely Commanders and Objectives), which is why it needed a third faction to create new play style options in order to keep the game from getting stale.

Instead of a third faction, I think we now see that Armada benefits from campaign play as the Corellian Conflict set has really energized local groups. The added benefit here is that you don't have to buy an entire faction's worth of ships just to get a few upgrade cards like you would in X-Wing. You only have to buy 1 campaign box. It's a much cheaper way to go for the player base.

I agree with this. If FFG released scum for Armada, would it fail like it did for X-Wing? And would I be forced to buy ships I don't want for the "next" TRC or FCT?

Why does Armada need scum? I'd rather see Republic and CIS because they actually have a legit reason to be a part of Armada. You know, full scale civil war and full size fleets.

So to all the yay-ers, why does Armada need scum?

Sad thread with angry people. Just because people "want" something does not mean it will make a good product. Let's just see what comes next .

Why is this thread sad? Who is angry? Do you really need to attempt to misrepresent and dismiss the opinions of others because they hold an opinion differently than your own view?

No, but one could attribute "anger" or "disgust" when they ascribe your opinion as to have induced vomiting. Then state that they will go away and only come back when they are proven right and everyone else is proven wrong.

Its not difficult to express emotion through writing - in fact, its easy to misexpress emotion... But sometimes, there are things said that are kind of obvious.

None of which, of course, I attribute to you, here... Only that there are some opinion elements here, in the thread, that are seemingly expressed as "angry", "sad" or perhaps even "frustrated" and "feeling belittled."

They're there, though.

I agree, its not the "Thread". But it is some parts of the thread.

Reasons I think it won't happen;

1) Theme, as stated already. I know there are Hutt fleets, and the Black Sun syndicate, etc, but they never sing 'large scale fleet battles' to me.

2) Cost. For production. Think about it; introducing a third faction will require a LOT of R&D to get the balance right. That takes time and money. People would be less likely to invest in the scum ships because they aren't as recognisable and they aren't in the core set. Sad but true. It might not make financial sense for FFG.

3) The current state of the EU/Canon situation. I believe FFG is moving away from the EU stuff which only occurs in 'Legends'. This is where a lot the scum ships (especially capital level) appear. They will more likely promote the new trilogy.

A scum faction I think is very viable if done right. It's not a matter of ships though but of gameplay. How would a third faction play compared to say the Empire or Rebels? I would imagine just like in Empire at War they would have a crazy amount of tricks up their sleeve between prototype or experimental weapons and what they salvaged.

Regular squadrons that are cheap but come with defense tokens are are fast and hit hard but are very fragile things.

Knock out two birds with one stone, people really want Clone Wars ships in the game. So give the scum salvaged clone wars era ship. They don't have any big ships? The separatists had a carp ton. Get one of those Droid Control Ships in the game!

The mistake people are making when immediately denouncing a third faction is by claiming they would never be equal to the firepower and capabilities of the two existing factions. It's not a matter of being equal but being different and compensating. Full lists of CR90's are viable but not against every list. The scum would be weaker then the Empire but if played right by the right admiral could still beat the Imperial opponent.

EG, here's FFG Art that demonstrates that the Hutt Cartel istself has a fleet more than capable of filling out a 400pt list, and this is almost certainly just a fraction of the fleet available to the Cartel.

Now just like we learned with Han and his dropping shipments into space when the Empire shows up it means individual smugglers, assassins and the likes will be hunted down but the Hutts or Black Sun will not be pursued and punished even if the scum blow a few Ties up. But again anything larger like a revolting fleet will bring the Imperial Iron Hand down on them.

The only source of a third faction I can think of is the Legends story from Heir of the Empire where the Chiss know of an out of Galaxy race that was planning on invading the Galaxy we all know and love but they were stopped before they got a chance. But that was after the Civil War period which Armada focuses on.

Oh man cool I was wondering when our weekly "new guy shows up out of nowhere, tells us how the game is fatally flawed unless we do whatever half-baked thing he recommends, and then has an epic meltdown and threatens to ragequit when people don't immediately agree with everything he said" thread was going to show up this week and it got dropped off early.

I used to be in the camp of a "scum," faction, but now I fall more to the introduction of Republic/CIS and whatever they're called in TFA as core sets with their own campaign expansions.

Go ahead and hate on the Republic/CIS idea, but admit it-those ships and fighters are a whole lot cooler than the movies. And we would have the possibility for the introduction of entirely new game mechanics, squadron options, and upgrades, such as droid fighter control. That would spice up the game a ton. Not really sure how a TFA core would add anything different to the game besides models, but it would make for a great campaign option.

Eyttyrmin Batiiv pirates had a fleet including 28 corvette class ships and converted freighters. True they didn't go looking for fleet engagements, but they had a force big enough to be in Armada.

Sad thread with angry people. Just because people "want" something does not mean it will make a good product. Let's just see what comes next .

Why is this thread sad? Who is angry? Do you really need to attempt to misrepresent and dismiss the opinions of others because they hold an opinion differently than your own view?

No, but one could attribute "anger" or "disgust" when they ascribe your opinion as to have induced vomiting. Then state that they will go away and only come back when they are proven right and everyone else is proven wrong.

Its not difficult to express emotion through writing - in fact, its easy to misexpress emotion... But sometimes, there are things said that are kind of obvious.

None of which, of course, I attribute to you, here... Only that there are some opinion elements here, in the thread, that are seemingly expressed as "angry", "sad" or perhaps even "frustrated" and "feeling belittled."

They're there, though.

I agree, its not the "Thread". But it is some parts of the thread.

But I am pleased with how the thread has gone despite of my initial snippyness. Good points all around for discussion

I feel like it's way more likely FFG will pull from CIS/Old Republic for a new faction before pulling from the EU for an entire faction, at least in Armada. Lucrehulks and Venators are way more iconic than anything from the books.

As for whether it's too late, Warmachine/Hordes is adding their 13th faction later this year, something like 14 years into the game's run. The question isn't whether it's "too late," but whether the game developers are committed to making the faction competitive.

I used to be in the camp of a "scum," faction, but now I fall more to the introduction of Republic/CIS and whatever they're called in TFA as core sets with their own campaign expansions.

Go ahead and hate on the Republic/CIS idea, but admit it-those ships and fighters are a whole lot cooler than the movies. And we would have the possibility for the introduction of entirely new game mechanics, squadron options, and upgrades, such as droid fighter control. That would spice up the game a ton. Not really sure how a TFA core would add anything different to the game besides models, but it would make for a great campaign option.

It's a tough sell, but would open up a couple of more styles of play, so I personally don't hate it

I used to be in the camp of a "scum," faction, but now I fall more to the introduction of Republic/CIS and whatever they're called in TFA as core sets with their own campaign expansions.

Go ahead and hate on the Republic/CIS idea, but admit it-those ships and fighters are a whole lot cooler than the movies. And we would have the possibility for the introduction of entirely new game mechanics, squadron options, and upgrades, such as droid fighter control. That would spice up the game a ton. Not really sure how a TFA core would add anything different to the game besides models, but it would make for a great campaign option.

I used to be in the camp of a "scum," faction, but now I fall more to the introduction of Republic/CIS and whatever they're called in TFA as core sets with their own campaign expansions.

Go ahead and hate on the Republic/CIS idea, but admit it-those ships and fighters are a whole lot cooler than the movies. And we would have the possibility for the introduction of entirely new game mechanics, squadron options, and upgrades, such as droid fighter control. That would spice up the game a ton. Not really sure how a TFA core would add anything different to the game besides models, but it would make for a great campaign option.

I love the Clone Wars period but don't care to see a mixed ages theme like they did with X-Wing. They can totally do it and I would probably buy it up but still wouldn't want to see the Republic up against the Empire. An ISD would crush a Venorator Class Star Destroyer.

For what it's worth, an ISD will crush anything if it gets to do what it wants to do

Eyttyrmin Batiiv pirates had a fleet including 28 corvette class ships and converted freighters. True they didn't go looking for fleet engagements, but they had a force big enough to be in Armada.

I still like the idea of a "card-only" Scum faction for a boxed set / "campaign".

Pirate "admirals" and crew that would somehow allow you to use the ships of other factions in some new way. Could be limited to only Medium or Small based ships, and have their own squadron bases/cards. You wouldn't even have to stick to giving -specific- "scum" versions of ships, though you could include a handful of "scum only" titles to customize existing ones.

Perhaps an admiral that lets you include ships from either faction in your fleet, but they count as belonging to the "scum" faction instead of their normal faction for purposes of titles or upgrades (so no Rebel or Imperial crew). Or even individual officers that have the affect on specific ships.

Include some other "scum only" upgrades and crew, and you could create a whole new play style with just a single "cardboard expansion" box set.

Plus, if you tied it into a specific campaign narrative, you could even "justify" fleet-level engagements with the faction.

I used to be in the camp of a "scum," faction, but now I fall more to the introduction of Republic/CIS and whatever they're called in TFA as core sets with their own campaign expansions.

Go ahead and hate on the Republic/CIS idea, but admit it-those ships and fighters are a whole lot cooler than the movies. And we would have the possibility for the introduction of entirely new game mechanics, squadron options, and upgrades, such as droid fighter control. That would spice up the game a ton. Not really sure how a TFA core would add anything different to the game besides models, but it would make for a great campaign option.

I love the Clone Wars period but don't care to see a mixed ages theme like they did with X-Wing. They can totally do it and I would probably buy it up but still wouldn't want to see the Republic up against the Empire. An ISD would crush a Venorator Class Star Destroyer.

For what it's worth, an ISD will crush anything if it gets to do what it wants to do