So, I had a situation come up yesterday.

There was a Z-95 in range 1 of the following:

• Valen Rudor ("While an enemy squadron is engaged with another squadron, it cannot attack you.")
• A TIE Bomber (Heavy)
• An Interdictor.

The Z-95 was engaged by enemy squadrons. ("While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons - pg. 6 RRG)

Since it was engaged with a non-heavy squadron (Valen), it could not shoot at the ship. ("When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged
squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.")

However, it could not attack Valen Rudor.

The TIE Bomber was Heavy ("You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving." - pg. 12 RRG). Therefore, the TIE Bomber on its own did not compel the Z-95 to shoot at it rather than the ship.

But Valen was not heavy.

So, was the Z-95 allowed to shoot at the ship, or did it have to shoot at the TIE Bomber?

It has to shoot the TIE Bomber. Valen is still engaging it, requiring it to attack a squadron. The TIE Bomber is the only eligible target, despite being Heavy.

Click bait title

It has to shoot the TIE Bomber. Valen is still engaging it, requiring it to attack a squadron. The TIE Bomber is the only eligible target, despite being Heavy.

So...I agree with this, but it runs real similar to that Instigator:Bomber question we had in wave 2 where I came down on this side of the fence and was FAQ'd wrong. And I honestly don't see the difference between Valen in this situation and "treat as though engaged by 2 enemy squadrons". I mean sure Valen is a physical squadron, but he's still not a valid target. Just like the phantom squads from the Instigator.

But then I still think they missed on that ruling. So take my opinion on this one with a grain of salt.

The saltiest salt.

The difference is, Instigator is a ship. Valen is a squadron.

I'm not getting into it.

The difference is, Instigator is a ship. Valen is a squadron.

Check the Golden Rules.

Cannot is absolute. Therefore, you cannot shoot Valen cuz you are engaged by Instigator.

The difference is, Instigator is a ship. Valen is a squadron.

Check the Golden Rules.

Cannot is absolute. Therefore, you cannot shoot Valen cuz you are engaged by Instigator.

Instigator does not Engage. You are not Engaged by Instigator.

This is an important distinction. If you were Engaged by Instigator, then you would always be able to shoot Instigator, because its engaging you.

But it does not Engage you.

You are counted as being Engaged by 2 more Squadrons.

Not being Engaged by Instigator.

The difference is, Instigator is a ship. Valen is a squadron.

Check the Golden Rules.

Cannot is absolute. Therefore, you cannot shoot Valen cuz you are engaged by Instigator.

Instigator does not Engage. You are not Engaged by Instigator.

This is an important distinction. If you were Engaged by Instigator, then you would always be able to shoot Instigator, because its engaging you.

But it does not Engage you.

You are counted as being Engaged by 2 more Squadrons.

Not being Engaged by Instigator.

Technicalities Dras...

Point remains you can't shoot Valen.

The difference is, Instigator is a ship. Valen is a squadron.

Check the Golden Rules.

Cannot is absolute. Therefore, you cannot shoot Valen cuz you are engaged by Instigator.

Instigator does not Engage. You are not Engaged by Instigator.

This is an important distinction. If you were Engaged by Instigator, then you would always be able to shoot Instigator, because its engaging you.

But it does not Engage you.

You are counted as being Engaged by 2 more Squadrons.

Not being Engaged by Instigator.

Technicalities Dras...

Point remains you can't shoot Valen.

In this case, the technicality that I stated would have sorted almost all of these rules questions from the get-go. But its not the case, and thus, we've had the discussions and arguments.

If you are Engaged, you must shoot at an Engaging Squadron if possible *instead of an enemy ship*.

It is not possible to Shoot at Valen

It is not possible to shoot at the Ghosts behind you from Instigator.

The TIE Bomber Engages you, but also releases you from its (individual) restriction of not Firing at Ships.

Valen Rudor still says if you are engaged, you must shoot at an Engaging Squadron if possible , instead of an enemy ship.

The TIE Bomber is an Engaging Squadron, and it is possible to shoot at it. because as we have discussed in the Past, Heavy Does Not Stop Engagement ... Because again, if that was the case, there are a raft of issues that would be non-issues.

This is what separates this question from the question of just Valen + Instigator, where it is possible to shoot at Instigator (or indeed, any other Ship within range.

Valen separates it from the Intel situation where all squadrons involved are either Not-Possible to Shoot at, or have the heavy rule, releasing you from having to shoot at Engaging Squadrons....

Ergo, you must shoot at the TIE Bomber

Until you make Valen Heavy.

Then Bombs Away.

This is all I can think of when you come scold us when we are wrong hahaha

This is all I can think of when you come scold us when we are wrong hahaha

I am sorry I sound that way. I really am.

As it was, I winced when I read the original post, and I spent a good half-hour trying to convince myself to not post... That it would just resolve itself and go away...

But here I am. And I don't feel good about it.

Being reminded of tech support is not a good feeling.

I actually found it and meant it as amusing, not as demeaning to what you do.

Do you two need marriage counseling?

Or to have a ménage à trois with Valen to get it out of your system.

Also, references to debates about Instigator are annoying if I have no idea what you're talking about. A link to the thread in which that was discussed would be helpful, if it is a salient enough debate of comparison to bring up.

But, I guess the consensus is that the Z-95 must shoot the TIE Bomber.

I was referring this;

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/196251-heavy-fighters-screened-by-a-raider-with-instigator-title/page-14

The difference is, Instigator is a ship. Valen is a squadron.

Check the Golden Rules.

Cannot is absolute. Therefore, you cannot shoot Valen cuz you are engaged by Instigator.

Instigator does not Engage. You are not Engaged by Instigator.

This is an important distinction. If you were Engaged by Instigator, then you would always be able to shoot Instigator, because its engaging you.

But it does not Engage you.

You are counted as being Engaged by 2 more Squadrons.

Not being Engaged by Instigator.

Technicalities Dras...

Point remains you can't shoot Valen.

In this case, the technicality that I stated would have sorted almost all of these rules questions from the get-go. But its not the case, and thus, we've had the discussions and arguments.

If you are Engaged, you must shoot at an Engaging Squadron if possible *instead of an enemy ship*.

It is not possible to Shoot at Valen

It is not possible to shoot at the Ghosts behind you from Instigator.

The TIE Bomber Engages you, but also releases you from its (individual) restriction of not Firing at Ships.

Valen Rudor still says if you are engaged, you must shoot at an Engaging Squadron if possible , instead of an enemy ship.

The TIE Bomber is an Engaging Squadron, and it is possible to shoot at it. because as we have discussed in the Past, Heavy Does Not Stop Engagement ... Because again, if that was the case, there are a raft of issues that would be non-issues.

This is what separates this question from the question of just Valen + Instigator, where it is possible to shoot at Instigator (or indeed, any other Ship within range.

Valen separates it from the Intel situation where all squadrons involved are either Not-Possible to Shoot at, or have the heavy rule, releasing you from having to shoot at Engaging Squadrons....

Ergo, you must shoot at the TIE Bomber

Until you make Valen Heavy.

Then Bombs Away.

Which is not me disagreeing with this interpretation. I totally agree you have to shoot the bomber. I just think both of these situations should have the same result, because they are ostensibly the same thing. One valid squadron target that happens to be heavy which you are forced to fire upon because you are engaged(valen), or are directed by a card to be treated as engaged(Instigator's Flying Dutchmen), by non heavy squadron targets.

I'm not trying to spark debate here either. I'm really just trying to work this out cuz its under my skin.

What I don't get here, is why it is that Valen can force you to shoot the Heavy but Instigators Phantom squads, which are also not heavy and also not valid targets, cannot.

Which is not me disagreeing with this interpretation. I totally agree you have to shoot the bomber. I just think both of these situations should have the same result, because they are ostensibly the same thing. One valid squadron target that happens to be heavy which you are forced to fire upon because you are engaged(valen), or are directed by a card to be treated as engaged(Instigator's Flying Dutchmen), by non heavy squadron targets.

I can also be wrong if I interpreted it incorrectly.

But I was under the impression that the ruling was provided so that if you were engaged with "no non-heavy squadrons".

Valen's also a Non-Heavy Squadron....

But I guess he's just as un-targetable as the Phantoms.

If Bomber + Instigator + No-body else = Shoot Instigator

Then I guess Bomber + Instigator + Valen = Shoot Instigator, too...

::shrug::

Seems my life's not letting me have the accuracy record I used to.

If Bomber + Instigator + No-body else = Shoot Instigator

Then I guess Bomber + Instigator + Valen = Shoot Instigator, too...

Hmm, so if I got that right,

within 1 of:

bomber + instigator = shoot whomever (because faq, no actual squadron without heavy);

instigator + valen = shoot instigator (valen text triggered by gator-squads engagement);

bomber + instigator + valen = shoot bomber (cannot shoot valen because valen text triggered by bomber & gator-squads engagement, cannot shoot instigator because as per faq, valen = actual squadron without heavy & engagement rule shoot engaged squadron if possible);

bomber + instigator + heavy valen = shoot whomever but valen (cannot shoot valen because valen text triggered by bomber & gator-squads engagement, can shoot instigator because faq & actual squadrons have heavy).

Hmm, so if I got that right,

within 1 of:

bomber + instigator = shoot whomever (because faq, no actual squadron without heavy);

instigator + valen = shoot instigator (valen text triggered by gator-squads engagement);

bomber + instigator + valen = shoot bomber (cannot shoot valen because valen text triggered by bomber & gator-squads engagement, cannot shoot instigator because as per faq, valen = actual squadron without heavy & engagement rule shoot engaged squadron if possible);

bomber + instigator + heavy valen = shoot whomever but valen (cannot shoot valen because valen text triggered by bomber & gator-squads engagement, can shoot instigator because faq & actual squadrons have heavy).

Scenario Three- In what FAQ is that addressed?

The Instigator FAQ entry states that "Squadrons can attack this ship if they are not engaged by an actual enemy squadron without heavy in the play area."

In scenario 3, Valen is an actual enemy squadron without heavy.

Whether you can forego shooting the bomber is the same issue as with instigator squads pre-faq, but with rules as they stand, you have to shoot it because of Valen.

I'm in the camp that Instigator (and, in the OP's example, the Interdictor) is a valid target.

Heavy states "You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships".

So, clearly, the presence of the TIE Bomber cannot be instrumental in preventing the attack on Instigator.

I hear you say "wait, it's Valen who's doing the preventing!", but with Valen alone the ship is still a valid target. And, per the above, adding the TIE Bomber to the equation cannot change the outcome.

FWIW, I think that in this situation Valen is no different from the 'phantom' squadrons of instigators. It engages but cannot be attacked.

And because it's not a valid target, the "if possible" clause of the engagement rules applies normally:

Q1: Am I engaged?

A1: Yes: by Valen, two phantoms, and a TIE Bomber.

Q2: Is it possible to attack one of the engaging squadrons?

A2: Yes, but only the TIE Bomber.

Q3: Must I attack the TIE Bomber instead of the ship?

Q4: No, because it's Heavy.

As stated before, I agree it's likely the same case as with the phantom squadrons.

But as it is, you must attack a squadron if possible (engagement rule) if there is an actual squadron without heavy engaging you (instigator FAQ entry).

The bomber's heavy doesn't change the fact that it is a squadron which is possible to shoot.

Q1: Am I engaged?

A1: Yes: by Valen, two phantoms, and a TIE Bomber.

Q2: Is it possible to attack one of the engaging squadrons?

A2: Yes, but only the TIE Bomber.

Q3: Must I attack the TIE Bomber instead of the ship?

Q4: Yes, because I am engaged with an actual squadron without heavy, which forces me to shoot at an engaged squadron if possible.

This might just be one of those rule inconsistencies for the sake of balance. I think maybe they were concerned that Instigator would be too strong/prevelant if it completely got around intel by forcing you to shoot heavy squads and preventing you from jumping out. Valen however, wouldnt be broken the same way because heavy can be applied to him through intel whereas it can't be applied to the phantom squads.

Pure speculation of course, on my part.

But as it is, you must attack a squadron if possible (engagement rule) if there is an actual squadron without heavy engaging you (instigator FAQ entry).

Unless I'm looking at the wrong document, the FAQ entry says nothing about Heavy. Nor does it have to, because Heavy squadrons are irrelevant for targeting ships.

Moreover, the entry simply states that squadrons can attack this ship despite the phantom engagement. It says nothing about the interaction with other non-valid (Valen) or non-intrusive (Heavy) squadrons.

From "If A then B" you cannot infer "If not A then not B".

The bomber's heavy doesn't change the fact that it is a squadron which is possible to shoot.

No, but it does change the fact that it matters. It's irrelevant whether or not you can shoot at the Bomber, because by the card you don't have to .

Q1: Am I engaged?

A1: Yes: by Valen, two phantoms, and a TIE Bomber.

Q2: Is it possible to attack one of the engaging squadrons?

A2: Yes, but only the TIE Bomber.

Q3: Must I attack the TIE Bomber instead of the ship?

Q4: Yes, because I am engaged with an actual squadron without heavy, which forces me to shoot at an engaged squadron if possible.

Remember that cards overrule the RRG. And here Heavy is in direct contradiction with the forced engagement rule - and it takes precedence, just as it would if neither Valen nor the Instigator phantoms were involved.

To prevent attacking a ship, an engaging squadron must both:

(i) be a valid target for attack; and

(ii) not be Heavy.

It's not sufficient to have some squadrons fufil (i) and others (ii). At least one engaging squadron must meet both conditions simultaneously. Otherwise the ship is a valid target.