What is the purpose of this talent?

It's from Quartermaster, Talent Tree AoR pg 81, description pg 151.

My Edge of the Empire Spacer Trader took it because he's buying and selling and wheeling and dealing. And it's a good pick for that but... how does that work?

I'm looking at it, and then looking at the rules for Negotiation, and I'm thinking that since now my merchant PC has it, he could care less about the Negotiation roll (that he's got enough to win with, but still)

"Okay, you're leaning on the table and explaining to the house merchant why the artifacts and ale from Naboo will be especially interesting, trying to get him to up the price by..."

"Naw, I'm a Master Merchant. I'll just take the 25% increase and let's go. Let's see, they were worth 4,000, so I bought them all for 3,000 thanks to the automatic 25% reduction. Now I'm here selling them for 5,000 thanks to the automatic 25% increase, cuz I'm a dang Master Merchant. Woo! 2,000 credits. Whew, that was strenuous, but I turned a heck of a profit. Came pretty close to doubling my money."

And that's without rolling Negotiation that, as mentioned, he's pretty good at (Presence 4, Negotiation 4.)

But I'm baffled at how that's supposed to "work".

The purpose of the talent is to spend less money to buy things and gain more money more when selling items. I do not see what baffle you.

I'll try to be clearer.

Extra successes on a Negotiation roll can be spent to net a 5% profit on your deal. This talent states you can spend 2 strain for a blanket 25% profit. While it's not worded this way, it's effectively "Spend 2 strain for +5 successes on your Negotiation roll". Is there another talent that does this? 2 strain for 5 successes?

The purpose of the talent is to spend less money to buy things and gain more money more when selling items. I do not see what baffle you.

It's not that it's spending less money to buy things and gaining more money when selling them. It's that it's a lot less money and a great deal more.

Since he got Wheel and Deal twice while sifting through that talent tree, without rolling Negotiation, he's looking at 75% cost for purchasing, and 145% price when selling. $1,000 sofa? That'll be $750 to buy, then you fly it across the way a bit and sell it for $1450, for a profit of $700. Not bad if it's only $1000, but what about $10,000? $20,000? He can practically double his money for every exchange. Yes, there are fees, taxes, tariffs, bribes, etc, etc. But once this player can get around that and get out of small time, ....

But all of that is not confusing. What is confusing to me is how that talent is supposed to "work". What is it about the player, now that he has this talent, that automatically makes every merchant in the galaxy bow down to his superior skill? Even if it may not be superior? If my PC shows up at Slick Billy's Emporium, and Negotiates a price for something, and Slick Billy rolls 5 yellows and wins, and raises the price 10%... but wait, PC is a Master Merchant, so now that'll be -15%. I guess that's just what it is, he's purchased a talent that, by spending 2 strain, he launches into some great Master Merchant speech that generates +5 successes on his Negotiation roll. I dunno, maybe he's finally developed a really good sob story that works on every merchant in the galaxy?

I guess I'm just getting worked up over nothing. But in my trader campaign, it's looking like an obstacle. I liken it to there being a talent out there called "Master Marksman: While attacking, spend 2 strain for +5 successes."

He still has to succeed on his rolls, and he has to roll.

Of course, but I was looking at it without rolling just to make the math easier. He does still have to roll, and he does still have to succeed in order to gain the listed advantage. So Slick Billy up there isn't a correct example. Still though, with a Presence and Negotiation of 4 each, I'm probably going to see a lot of successful rolls.

I suppose there's just one thing to do. Have him join the Rebellion and immediately become a wanted criminal who can no longer operate an incredibly successful legal business!

I'll try to be clearer.

Extra successes on a Negotiation roll can be spent to net a 5% profit on your deal. This talent states you can spend 2 strain for a blanket 25% profit. While it's not worded this way, it's effectively "Spend 2 strain for +5 successes on your Negotiation roll". Is there another talent that does this? 2 strain for 5 successes?

The purpose of the talent is to spend less money to buy things and gain more money more when selling items. I do not see what baffle you.

It's not that it's spending less money to buy things and gaining more money when selling them. It's that it's a lot less money and a great deal more.

Since he got Wheel and Deal twice while sifting through that talent tree, without rolling Negotiation, he's looking at 75% cost for purchasing, and 145% price when selling. $1,000 sofa? That'll be $750 to buy, then you fly it across the way a bit and sell it for $1450, for a profit of $700. Not bad if it's only $1000, but what about $10,000? $20,000? He can practically double his money for every exchange. Yes, there are fees, taxes, tariffs, bribes, etc, etc. But once this player can get around that and get out of small time, ....

But all of that is not confusing. What is confusing to me is how that talent is supposed to "work". What is it about the player, now that he has this talent, that automatically makes every merchant in the galaxy bow down to his superior skill? Even if it may not be superior? If my PC shows up at Slick Billy's Emporium, and Negotiates a price for something, and Slick Billy rolls 5 yellows and wins, and raises the price 10%... but wait, PC is a Master Merchant, so now that'll be -15%. I guess that's just what it is, he's purchased a talent that, by spending 2 strain, he launches into some great Master Merchant speech that generates +5 successes on his Negotiation roll. I dunno, maybe he's finally developed a really good sob story that works on every merchant in the galaxy?

I guess I'm just getting worked up over nothing. But in my trader campaign, it's looking like an obstacle. I liken it to there being a talent out there called "Master Marksman: While attacking, spend 2 strain for +5 successes."

I play a Hutt entrepreneur. I am aware of the craziness all this talents can bring up. Your character main fonction is to bring money to his group and it is exactly what he would do. Embrace your role and be happy. That being said, there are always limits the GM can use. What if the item you want cant be found in a shop? What if nobody want to buy your stolen goods? What if the merchant doesn't have enought funds? etc.

Also, this remind me of a discussion we had in this forum about technician spending entire session crafting things to become rich. At the end, you are playing in a star wars campaign and star wars isn't a financial exercise of how many credits can I do in 1 hour. It is about adventures, danger, drama...

Of course, but I was looking at it without rolling just to make the math easier. He does still have to roll, and he does still have to succeed in order to gain the listed advantage. So Slick Billy up there isn't a correct example. Still though, with a Presence and Negotiation of 4 each, I'm probably going to see a lot of successful rolls.

I suppose there's just one thing to do. Have him join the Rebellion and immediately become a wanted criminal who can no longer operate an incredibly successful legal business!

If he's an advanced character you should also be making the deals being Negotiated harder. There's plenty of cagey NPCs out there that have lots of ranks in Cool and good Presence scores...

Of course, but I was looking at it without rolling just to make the math easier. He does still have to roll, and he does still have to succeed in order to gain the listed advantage. So Slick Billy up there isn't a correct example. Still though, with a Presence and Negotiation of 4 each, I'm probably going to see a lot of successful rolls.

I suppose there's just one thing to do. Have him join the Rebellion and immediately become a wanted criminal who can no longer operate an incredibly successful legal business!

If he's an advanced character you should also be making the deals being Negotiated harder. There's plenty of cagey NPCs out there that have lots of ranks in Cool and good Presence scores...

I really need to reread this!

Unless they make that Negotiation roll how can they profit from this talent?

As it stands it merely improves his chances at buying low and selling high, but if he doesn't make the check at all how can he automatically succeed?

Sorry if I misunderstand your initial problem if all that's going on is he's targeting easy marks if that's the case putting them out of business through his antics will only leave those marks he's been purposely avoiding!

Nonsense. A master merchant knows better than to destroy his market. He can make more in the long run by not burning up his connections. Of course, he can make a lot in the short run by burning a few, and there's a big galactic marketplace out there that's not all that far away.

I also think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the merchanting rules going on. I see where you're getting the extra success = 5% from the Negotiation skill description, but that's not where the selling and trading rules are. The paragraph containing the 5% figure goes on to talk about contract duration/volume and this GM would say this paragraph is talking about deals for the party and such. For example, if you're negotiating with someone over a job for the group and they offer 10,000cr and you score 3 successes, they're willing to pay 11,000cr.

Given that we have a specific set of rules for buying/selling (reference EotE page 150) and the talents specifically state they're only to be used when buying/selling goods these are the rules you actually want to use when doing transactions for individual/small groups of items (remember Trade is a separate topic). When buying an item RAW, a successful Negotiation check to buy an item means you find the item is available for purchase (presumably at the listed price). When selling an item RAW, a success sells the item for 25% of the cost/listed price. For 2 and 3 successes the item sells for 50% and 75% the cost/listed price, respectively. If you had more than 3 successes, the GM could fall back on the general Negotiation description and add 5% per extra success.

Now to your question, Master Merchant is explained on EotE pg. 138. The 25% discount when purchasing an item is a unique ability. The GM can certainly allow extra successes to lower the price, but a discount for extra successes is not codified in the rules. When selling an item, Master Merchant is one of the only ways to sell an item for its listed price, but it is always helpful if you don't get 3 successes. Just remember you need to spend the strain before you roll.

Here's some examples to put things a different way. In all cases the PC is buying/selling a general purpose scanner. To highlight the differences, the total credit exchange is listed at the end.

1. PC does not have Master Merchant or Wheel and Deal. The PC succeeds on a Negotiation to find the scanner and buys it for 500cr. Later, the PC succeeds with 1 success on a Negotiation check to sell the scanner and lets it go for 125cr. If the PC had gotten 2 successes, they could've gotten 250cr for it (and 3 successes would've landed them 375cr). Worst case: 375cr loss; Best case: 125cr loss.

2. PC has Master Merchant but not Wheel and Deal. The PC takes the strain plus succeeds on a Negotiation to find the scanner and buys it for 375cr. Later, the PC takes more strain plus succeeds with 1 success on a Negotiation check to sell the scanner. The PC would get 250cr because of netting 1 success plus the extra 25% of base cost from Master Merchant. If the PC had gotten 2 or 3 successes they would've gotten 375 and 500cr, respectively. Worst case: 125cr loss; Best case: 125cr gain.

3. PC has Wheel and Deal x2 but not Master Merchant. The PC succeeds on a Negotiation to find the scanner and buys it for 500cr. Later, the PC succeeds with 1 success on a Negotiation check to sell the scanner. The PC would get 225cr because of netting 1 success plus the extra 20% of base cost from ranks of Wheel and Deal. If the PC had gotten 2 or 3 successes they would've gotten 350 and 475cr, respectively. Worst case: 275cr loss; Best case: 25cr loss.

4. PC has Master Merchant and Wheel and Deal x2. The PC takes the strain plus succeeds on a Negotiation to find the scanner and buys it for 375cr. Later, the PC takes more strain plus succeeds with 1 success on a Negotiation check to sell the scanner. The PC would get 350cr because of netting 1 success (125cr) plus the extra 25% of base cost from Master Merchant (125cr) plus 20% the base cost from ranks of Wheel and Deal (100cr). If the PC had gotten 2 or 3 successes they would've gotten 475 and 600cr, respectively. Worst case: 25cr loss; Best case 225cr gain.

A final note is that both Wheel and Deal and Master Merchant apply when Trading which is where their potential really shines. In a final example, if a PC with both Master Merchant and Wheel and Deal x2 were to buy a load of 100 scanners it would normally cost 50,000cr. Due to Master Merchant, a successful check would bring that down to 37,500cr. The PCs then travel to a place where the rarity modifier is 3 higher and attempt to unload them. This makes the base price now 150,000cr. If the PC gets even one success on the now harder check, they'll bring in 105,000cr (37,500cr for a single success, 37,500cr for Master Merchant, and 30,000cr for Wheel and Deal x2).

TL;DR: Remember items don't sell at full price, it's only 25% price. Therefore, it's almost impossible for non-Master Merchant characters buying and selling individual items to make credits. When you have multiple ranks of Wheel and Deal plus Master Merchant, it's probable a character will make credits when buying and selling anything.

The other thing I’d point out is that talents like Master Merchant and Wheel and Deal are ones that I would allow to be used when buying or selling large cargoes, but not for personal items.

So, those blasters that you scavenged from the squad of Stormtroopers you wiped out? Selling those wouldn’t gain the benefits of talents like this.

You’re not dealing in large enough quantities that the person on the other end of the transaction is a major supplier, and smaller shops that would be involved in those kinds of sales wouldn’t give an individual person the same kind of treatment that they get from their bulk dealers.

But that entire bulk freighter full of crates of blasters for equipping an entire army? Yeah, you could use these talents there, and you could make some really serious money.

You could also wind up painting a big target on your back as someone who is trying to muscle into the business of established international weapons dealers like Black Sun or a Hutt Cartel, and that might bring down a whole fleet of problems on your head.

At least, that’s the way I’d be inclined to do it in my game. Now, maybe players might be able to convince me to bend those rules, but they’d have to give me a good narrative for how that would happen.

The other thing I’d point out is that talents like Master Merchant and Wheel and Deal are ones that I would allow to be used when buying or selling large cargoes, but not for personal items.

While you may or may not allow this at your table, I emailed Sam and asked him if the talents had to be used for bulk buying (like cargos) or can it apply to buying just one stim pack. He said that it applies anytime money changes hands. So buying one bar of soap or ten thousand makes no difference to the Entrepreneur.

Of course, but I was looking at it without rolling just to make the math easier. He does still have to roll, and he does still have to succeed in order to gain the listed advantage. So Slick Billy up there isn't a correct example. Still though, with a Presence and Negotiation of 4 each, I'm probably going to see a lot of successful rolls.

I suppose there's just one thing to do. Have him join the Rebellion and immediately become a wanted criminal who can no longer operate an incredibly successful legal business!

If he's an advanced character you should also be making the deals being Negotiated harder. There's plenty of cagey NPCs out there that have lots of ranks in Cool and good Presence scores...

And those are the ones the Master Merchant avoids since he can make his money selling to rubes. You don't get rich by playing fai

True, but as GM, I would assume that rubes simply don't have the kind of credits the pc is looking for.

I would be putting this PC in charge of spending NPC's money. Perhaps they work for a Hutt who has a contact wiling to sell 30 crates full of Survival kits. The PC's are given the task of negotiating the best price to buy them, then finding the highest price selling them, they will receive a cut of the profit.

The player feels awesome because they turned 50,000 into 150,000. But the party only gets 10,000 of the money, so it's not another new ship every other session.