Sure, not every pilot is usable currently. Look at Hobbie, Luke, Porkins. However, such binder warmers exist for nearly every other ship currently out there too. Kir Kanos, Arvel, Lando, Evril, Hera (ghost), all the non Vader TIEadv, all non-Corran Ewings, Valor to name a few.

And let's not forget the king of all utterly useless ships, Fel's Wrath.

He is surprisingly good against snapshot based lists.

sorta

I think the t-65 could use a creative "push" to make it overall more competitive, but my buddy who I play all the time has a super powerful t-65 list, it runs wedge and wes with a Lothal Rebel, just punishes everything, I've beaten him only with killer lists and killer flying, but he has easily beaten me more, and everyone at our LGS, defenders, k wing bomber lists, Attanni Mindlink lists, rey+ ace lists, dangaroo. He catches everyone by surprise and if you are dumb enough to meet him in the middle of the board your losing a ship. So yeah that has shown me that the t-65 is better then people think

The list if your curious

Wedge, crackshot, r2,IA

Wes, adaptability, r3a2,IA

Lothal Rebel, FCS, Hera, chopper

I play for fun with my friends mostly, and they don't own any models so we all use my collection. It contains red squadron repaints of Luke, Biggs and Wedge. Do you think my friends pick an ugly E-Wing flown by some 'Corran Horn' they never saw in the films? No, they pick the Falcon or the T-65s nearly every time.

Got the game to recreate dogfights from my favourite fictional universe, not to play 100 point tournaments.

The T-65 has some of the best pilots in the game. It's an average ship with glorious pilots. What it needs is good astromech design to make it competitive. Up until now they've been too niche (hobbie with targetting mech) or two conservative (R3).

The T-65 has some of the best pilots in the game. It's an average ship with glorious pilots. What it needs is good astromech design to make it competitive. Up until now they've been too niche (hobbie with targetting mech) or two conservative (R3).

Yeah but a T-65 fix likely can't be astromechs because those are too modular of a game element for them to playtest against everything. Plus, chances are that good astros will simply end up benefiting the T-70 as much or more than the T-65.

The T-65 has some of the best pilots in the game. It's an average ship with glorious pilots. What it needs is good astromech design to make it competitive. Up until now they've been too niche (hobbie with targetting mech) or two conservative (R3).

Yeah but a T-65 fix likely can't be astromechs because those are too modular of a game element for them to playtest against everything. Plus, chances are that good astros will simply end up benefiting the T-70 as much or more than the T-65.

Well they could just make the astromech t-65 only, and a title is still open to be created so that's always an option. What ever they do, it more then likely won't be defensive because they don't want to help biggs be harder to kill. But hey im down with an extra attack die, a white k turn, maybe when you target lock you get a focus, anything little bit can help

The T-65 has some of the best pilots in the game. It's an average ship with glorious pilots. What it needs is good astromech design to make it competitive. Up until now they've been too niche (hobbie with targetting mech) or two conservative (R3).

Yeah but a T-65 fix likely can't be astromechs because those are too modular of a game element for them to playtest against everything. Plus, chances are that good astros will simply end up benefiting the T-70 as much or more than the T-65.

That's sort of by design, though. The developer's said* they were trying to keep the X-Wings comparable in power level since any buff to the old x-wing would apply to the new unless they did some silly stuff with syntax on the cards that would probably complicate things down the road.

*During interviews around the time the TFA core set was released.

Go Go Star Trek Attack Wing! I can imagine a booster pack (or re-release core set) incorporating 4 banks and turns (6 straight is accomplished via boost). It'd give some variety to what gets released, but would unbalance a few ships (Juno Eclipse comes to mind).

5 straight plus a boost is a 7 straight

Not sure who gave the right to claim "we All!" But I for one am quite happy with this game and like the original X-Wing.

Play what ever you like but don't presume that you know others thoughts or opinions.

5 straight plus a boost is a 7 straight

Yup, but Star Trek attack wing only goes up to 6 straight (I'm not sure if they have the boost action). My point was that the 6 straight is simulated with the boost action (and the 4 straight). A shadowcaster with engine upgrade, PTL and advanced slam can move 15-straight in a single turn, just for laughs.

FFG wants to make money. Eventually they will rebalance and sell us a bunch of cards for a $30. Problem fixed and then we can complain about something else until the next fix arrives.

So just accept the x-wing is just better then you want to believe, its not JUST fluff, its a good ship.

Eh... no? Just because you think it is - and you're entitled to do so - doesn't mean others have to. Looking at it purely as a game piece, it's average across the board. Sure, the tv shows, movies, and books might want to hype it up through story and legend, but that's not actually going to effect it's stats or position in the game.

I get it; you're a big SW fan and are heavy into the lore and EU. That's great for you, but objectively, the ship is perfectly average.

True. But can't something be competitive and fun? The Defender manages it, as does the Interceptor and pretty much the whole Scum faction.

To be fair, the Interceptor is only really competitive with Soontir, and even then there are a lot of counters now. Also "the whole Scum faction" is a bit too broad, considering you're about as likely to see Star Vipers and Khiraxz fighters in a top tier list as you are a Rookie Pilot (hey, look at that, I dragged it on topic!). Even the Scyk fix isn't thrusting it quite into the limelight, but it's at least on a par with the Mist Hunter in tier 2 now. Heck, even Aggressors are flagging a bit; I can't remember the last time I saw a pair of those used.

But i think what they're arguing was that it's the game piece that was not designed right. I definitely do not believe the X-Wing is average by any means, when basically anything is better than it. The TIE Fighter is average, because it's a baseline of efficiency. The X-Wing is not. Meanwhile, the X-Wing, throughout any GCW-era material, is universally considered a fearsome, powerful machine. Thrawn considered X-Wings to be dreadful and the biggest obstacle to his fighter squadrons being victorious.

" The Incom T-65 X-wing is the fighter that killed the Death Star. An almost perfect balance of speed, maneuverability, and defensive shielding make it the fighter of choice for Rogue Squadron. "

-General Carlist Rieekan

The X-Wing is supposed to be one of the best fighters of the era, nearly unmatched in it's capabilities with the sole exception of the TIE Defender, whose existence is notable because it was known as an X-Wing Killer. If the X-Wing wasn't a strong ship, the TIE Defender wouldn't have such a powerful reputation for killing them. X-Wing pilots were expected to be able to defeat TIE Fighters that outnumbered them 3-to-1. That's more than just piloting skill. A great deal of that is that the X-Wing is just THAT good of a ship.

Let's just be honest with ourselves. The X-Wing in Star Wars canon compared to it's representation in X-Wing is day and night. Nearly every single player acknowledges that the X-Wing is not a good ship.

Let's look at that quote again. Speed, maneuverability, and defensive shielding.

Speed. X-Wings aren't particularly fast. They're not slow, but nobody would call them fast. Their fastest green is 2 straight. They cap out at 4 straight. No boost. I would say the X-Wing in-game does not live up to this attribute.

Maneuverability. X-Wings are exceedingly UN-maneuverable. No speed 1 turns, no boost, no barrel roll, no green banks or turns above speed 1, no special maneuvers. The X-Wing in-game does not live up to this attribute.

Defensive shielding. The A-Wing has just as many shields as the X-Wing does, and i would argue to death that the A-Wing is better at keeping them too, with excellent access to action efficiency through generics with EPT slots plus the additional, free EPT slot, the evade action, boost, an addition green die, and autothrusters. The X-Wing has Integrated Astromech, and the focus action. X-Wings die at the mercy of the dice, not any inherent abilities. The X-Wing in-game does not live up to this attribute.

Flying an X-Wing other than Biggs is just a disappointing, frustrating experience. I know this, because after seeing Rogue One i wanted to fly X-Wings, so i did. I wish i hadn't. There's zero reason to take a ship that can't turn, that can't run, that can't take hits, and that can barely shoot back. And that sucks.

So just accept the x-wing is just better then you want to believe, its not JUST fluff, its a good ship.

Eh... no? Just because you think it is - and you're entitled to do so - doesn't mean others have to. Looking at it purely as a game piece, it's average across the board. Sure, the tv shows, movies, and books might want to hype it up through story and legend, but that's not actually going to effect it's stats or position in the game.

I get it; you're a big SW fan and are heavy into the lore and EU. That's great for you, but objectively, the ship is perfectly average.

True. But can't something be competitive and fun? The Defender manages it, as does the Interceptor and pretty much the whole Scum faction.

To be fair, the Interceptor is only really competitive with Soontir, and even then there are a lot of counters now. Also "the whole Scum faction" is a bit too broad, considering you're about as likely to see Star Vipers and Khiraxz fighters in a top tier list as you are a Rookie Pilot (hey, look at that, I dragged it on topic!). Even the Scyk fix isn't thrusting it quite into the limelight, but it's at least on a par with the Mist Hunter in tier 2 now. Heck, even Aggressors are flagging a bit; I can't remember the last time I saw a pair of those used.

But i think what they're arguing was that it's the game piece that was not designed right. I definitely do not believe the X-Wing is average by any means, when basically anything is better than it. The TIE Fighter is average, because it's a baseline of efficiency. The X-Wing is not. Meanwhile, the X-Wing, throughout any GCW-era material, is universally considered a fearsome, powerful machine. Thrawn considered X-Wings to be dreadful and the biggest obstacle to his fighter squadrons being victorious.

"[/size] The Incom T-65 X-wing is the fighter that killed the Death Star. An almost perfect balance of speed, maneuverability, and defensive shielding make it the fighter of choice for Rogue Squadron. "[/size]

-General Carlist Rieekan[/size]

The X-Wing is supposed to be one of the best fighters of the era, nearly unmatched in it's capabilities with the sole exception of the TIE Defender, whose existence is notable because it was known as an X-Wing Killer. If the X-Wing wasn't a strong ship, the TIE Defender wouldn't have such a powerful reputation for killing them. X-Wing pilots were expected to be able to defeat TIE Fighters that outnumbered them 3-to-1. That's more than just piloting skill. A great deal of that is that the X-Wing is just THAT good of a ship.

Let's just be honest with ourselves. The X-Wing in Star Wars canon compared to it's representation in X-Wing is day and night. Nearly every single player acknowledges that the X-Wing is not a good ship.

Let's look at that quote again. Speed, maneuverability, and defensive shielding.

Speed. X-Wings aren't particularly fast. They're not slow, but nobody would call them fast. Their fastest green is 2 straight. They cap out at 4 straight. No boost. I would say the X-Wing in-game does not live up to this attribute.

Maneuverability. X-Wings are exceedingly UN-maneuverable. No speed 1 turns, no boost, no barrel roll, no green banks or turns above speed 1, no special maneuvers. The X-Wing in-game does not live up to this attribute.

Defensive shielding. The A-Wing has just as many shields as the X-Wing does, and i would argue to death that the A-Wing is better at keeping them too, with excellent access to action efficiency through generics with EPT slots plus the additional, free EPT slot, the evade action, boost, an addition green die, and autothrusters. The X-Wing has Integrated Astromech, and the focus action. X-Wings die at the mercy of the dice, not any inherent abilities. The X-Wing in-game does not live up to this attribute.

Flying an X-Wing other than Biggs is just a disappointing, frustrating experience. I know this, because after seeing Rogue One i wanted to fly X-Wings, so i did. I wish i hadn't. There's zero reason to take a ship that can't turn, that can't run, that can't take hits, and that can barely shoot back. And that sucks.

Can't turn? 2 and three speed white turns don't count I guess.

3 attack native? Not good for hitting I guess, everyone must be flying Toilet seats, Phantoms and VCX.

Can't take hits? I guess 6 hp isn't enough unless it's behind 3 Agi and an evade.

It's a wonder any ships get flown if that's the criteria we are using to judge what's good.

Can't turn? 2 and three speed white turns don't count I guess.

When other ships have 1 turns couple with Barrel Rolls and Boosts, then no. Speed 2 and 3 turns do not count. That's literally the slowest possible way to turn around.

3 attack native? Not good for hitting I guess, everyone must be flying Toilet seats, Phantoms and VCX.

Three attacks with only a TL or focus for modification is not good. And with no access to EPTs for generic pilots, access to dice mods is extremely limited.

Can't take hits? I guess 6 hp isn't enough unless it's behind 3 Agi and an evade.

No, it's not enough. All the competitive ships have multiple dice mods, multiple token stacks or arc dodging abilities. 6HP behind 2 green dice doesn't cut the mustard.

It's a wonder any ships get flown if that's the criteria we are using to judge what's good.

"Any ships" don't get flown. Only the good ones, and the X Wing doesn't make the list.

Can't turn? 2 and three speed white turns don't count I guess.

When other ships have 1 turns couple with Barrel Rolls and Boosts, then no. Speed 2 and 3 turns do not count. That's literally the slowest possible way to turn around.

3 attack native? Not good for hitting I guess, everyone must be flying Toilet seats, Phantoms and VCX.

Three attacks with only a TL or focus for modification is not good. And with no access to EPTs for generic pilots, access to dice mods is extremely limited.

Can't take hits? I guess 6 hp isn't enough unless it's behind 3 Agi and an evade.

No, it's not enough. All the competitive ships have multiple dice mods, multiple token stacks or arc dodging abilities. 6HP behind 2 green dice doesn't cut the mustard.

It's a wonder any ships get flown if that's the criteria we are using to judge what's good.

"Any ships" don't get flown. Only the good ones, and the X Wing doesn't make the list.

Poor X-wing. I guess he's just a special boy getting picked on. But **** you Khyraxz, and you too Generic TiE Interceptors with EPTs, you are GAHBAGE, and you just won't do.

Agreed on the Interceptor maneuvers. I could see an Interceptor title giving them speed 3 sloops, or the ability to use an action to turn a 3 bank into a 3 sloop (which would at least give the option of double-stressing to keep a focus after the movement and 180), in exchange for losing that extra mod slot from the Royal Guard title giving them a new lease of life. Not a massive one, but enough to get them back into the fold somewhat. The problem with many of the Int aces is that they're simply not that good compared to Soontir, or even an RGP.

My problem was more that there are no speed 4 and 5 maneuvers other than straight, this design omission from the core set has severely hampered later designs. However, it is what it is.

It's tough to make a buff for a ship be thematic without breaking the idea that it's a backbone ship rather than something insanely powerful. It's also tough to make a buff for a ship that has Biggs and Wedge as pilots; increase it's defence and Biggs becomes a bigger nightmare, increase it's offence and Wedge becomes arguably too strong.

You could play around with such perennial favourites as energy management, boosting shields at the cost of attack, that sorta thing. But yeah, it'll be hard to get right.

It's similar to the Soontir issue with the Interceptors: how do you buff the Int without making Fel overpowered, but give the other aces a decent shot at table time?

By giving them a non-stressing alternative to PtL.

^sorry, non-stress quasi-PTL was handed to the TIE Striker with their quasi-boost non-action title. Can't do the same 'fix' twice.

Aaand in other news: earth is round!

Yes. T-65 is no longer a competitive fighter. It hasn't been for years, arguably from the very beginning (TIE fighters were always more efficient). For a while it's saving grace was the strength of some of the pilots. From that standpoint it still has a place in some competitive lists because BIggs is still around (I should know, I'm flying him in my current list). He's the only one left however. Objectively, that doesn't really make T-65 any worse off than most of the other ships in the game. It's not like this game is shy on ships that only have one viable pilot. In fact, it's way easier to name the few ships that have several viable pilots or even *gasps* generics than the other way around. I think all the calls for a T-65 fix are there mostly because it's such an iconic fighter that it's somehow demeaning when it only shows up every once in a while to bite the bullet for the team.

Observation on "Maneuverability" and "Defensive Shielding" - I would make the observation that as the OP suggested, you can essentially assume Integrated Astromech and an R2 Astromech are a given unless you're taking a different astromech for a specific reason. Therefore, Speed 2 turns are green, and you can essentially allow an extra "shield". Yes, it's still not the same as 'tough' - you have the same damage capacity as a TIE defender but less agility and no option of the TIE/x7 title, or "maneuvrable" - you have the same green dial as a TIE interceptor but not the boost or barrel roll.

^sorry, non-stress quasi-PTL was handed to the TIE Striker with their quasi-boost non-action title. Can't do the same 'fix' twice.

Something else that would benefit the squints more than other ships while replacing PtL, ensuring Soontir would remain loyal. Although I would love a title that says "you may equip Daredevil for free".

Observation on "Maneuverability" and "Defensive Shielding" - I would make the observation that as the OP suggested, you can essentially assume Integrated Astromech and an R2 Astromech are a given unless you're taking a different astromech for a specific reason. Therefore, Speed 2 turns are green, and you can essentially allow an extra "shield". Yes, it's still not the same as 'tough' - you have the same damage capacity as a TIE defender but less agility and no option of the TIE/x7 title, or "maneuvrable" - you have the same green dial as a TIE interceptor but not the boost or barrel roll.

Heres the thing though;

Out of the last 3 waves(counting from 10 to 8), how many ships didnt have a reposition action or other movement ability?

Rebels:

Wave 8:

Ghost: Has a turret slot and loads of modification options, reducing the need for it.

Attack Shuttle: And i havent seen an attack shuttle in ages. The one i do see is Sabine, the only one who DOES have reposition actions.

Wave 9:

ARC-170: The rear firing arc significantly reduces the need for this ship to be hyper-mobile, and as a result is viable without it.

Wave 10:

U-Wing: It's title, giving the ability to do 0K-turns adds the component of maneuverability otherwise missing from this ship.

Scum:

Wave 9:

Shadow Caster: It's mobile arc and incredible pilot abilities easily make up for this deficit by a large margin.

Empire:

Wave 10:

Epsilon Shuttle: It's a shuttle. Inherently it has the upgrade slots, pilot abilities, and general layout to make up for being un-maneuverable.

Most ships that end up being competitive have the following things in common:

Can stack tokens/modifiers

Is either maneuverable(which very specifically means it either has free access to boost, barrel roll, etc; has an incredible dial(think jumpmaster, defender, etc), or both), or has the tools to get around being unmaneuverable(ARC-170 being the prime example)

That's basically it. X7s being a baseline atm, they're very mobile with their white 4k and all green straights, with TIE Mk.II adding even more mobility, and stack tokens incredibly well. Even ARC-170s, such as Norra, Biggs, and Braylen, stack modifiers decently well, and the aux arcs along with Biggs eliminates the downside of poor mobility.

X-Wings cannot do this. They can't stack tokens whatsoever, and it doesnt matter whether or not the 2 speed turns are green or not, when the only way to safely turn your ship around is spending 2 turns doing 2 speed turns(because a 4K sacrifices the only modifiers X-Wings can get, which is a death sentence), that's a ship with terrible mobility.

Repositioning this and that, look, repositioning is important to high(est) PS pilots, it seems to not be nearly as important to mid PS and low(est) PS will only use that BR/boost to block. What is a Rookie going to do with BR?

There's ways for X-wings to stack tokens, it just takes a few more cards than just the 21 point Rookie, or even the free IA with 1-2 point Astro.

Targeting Astro gives them that TL when they Kturn.

BB8 gives any X the ability to Broll, focus or TL (or boost if you wanted to add that expensive EU or go T-70), and EPT capable guys can PTL each turn.

EPT droid can give one Red Squadron guy that EPT he seems to need.

Yeah, token stacking and repositioning is not inherent in the T-65, but it can be modified to do that. Is it going to turn every X into a X7 defender or a Soontir? Nope. But Wedge with BB8, EU and PTL is a tough customer, if predicable. But they said Defenders were predictable too.

On second thought, X-wings suck. Stick to TIEs.

The T65 doesn't suck. It's not really broken either. The players have largely decided that in a world of more expensive ships that are better, ships that cost similarly but specialize, and cheap spam/filler that are below average, all of those win out over average ships.

X-wings pilots like wedge and wes is still pretty ok IMO. The only problem that really sticks with the t-65 in the current meta is the weak defense. 2 agility that maybe gets a focus token isn't going to protect a 5hp ship for long even with IA. The offense output with either predator or ptl+bb-8 combined with abilites like wedge can is nothing too sneeze at but the fact that they can't really take any damage in return is the problem. Vs stuff like double focus fen rau with title, soontir och x7 defenders they just aren't surviving long enough to make them worth the points. i can put my anecdotal evidence here that I did go undefeated in a store champ with wedge, wes and poe and top 8 in regional last year. I also have a better that 50% win ratio against triple defenders with that list. Do I think they can win a regional or bigger tournament theese day?, Nope but at least possible to make top 8/16 cut.

But that is a problem alot of ships have in this game thanks to the arms race. I remember when predator came into the game, people thought it was nuts!. Gettin re-roll + focus without PTL and stress. Now we have alot of ships that will pretty much every turn throw out 3-4 dice with target locks + focus while being able to take return fire without a big problem. Or stuff like fen rau and rey at range 1. 5 attack dice without having to buy a one shot proton rocket, rey even gets 2 free re-rolls. We have heard this sky is falling speech about X-wing so many times now. I think before the year is over we will see a rouge one box of some kind with new x-wing pilots and some sort of "buff" so calm down and fly casual. We must also remember that this game is played by alot of players who either never attend bigger tournaments or care about placing in the top 50%. When you aren't facing the top 4 lists in the meta the T-65 works just fine just like alot of other "useless" ships.

My 2 cents one the t-65 once again

Repositioning this and that, look, repositioning is important to high(est) PS pilots, it seems to not be nearly as important to mid PS and low(est) PS will only use that BR/boost to block. What is a Rookie going to do with BR?

There's ways for X-wings to stack tokens, it just takes a few more cards than just the 21 point Rookie, or even the free IA with 1-2 point Astro.

Targeting Astro gives them that TL when they Kturn.

BB8 gives any X the ability to Broll, focus or TL (or boost if you wanted to add that expensive EU or go T-70), and EPT capable guys can PTL each turn.

EPT droid can give one Red Squadron guy that EPT he seems to need.

Yeah, token stacking and repositioning is not inherent in the T-65, but it can be modified to do that. Is it going to turn every X into a X7 defender or a Soontir? Nope. But Wedge with BB8, EU and PTL is a tough customer, if predicable. But they said Defenders were predictable too.

On second thought, X-wings suck. Stick to TIEs.

Oh, i don't know, boost out of a 2 turn to turn around faster without getting a stress from a K-turn(like my T-70s do)? Or boosting out to gain distance and make it to range 3(like my T-70s do). or to set up for a future turn by boosting(like my T-70s do). Or using barrel roll to block. Or to dodge an asteroid they landed in front of. or to dodge behind an asteroid for cover. You're pulling wool over your OWN eyes by choosing to see repositioning in only one light, as arc dodging, which is so completely untrue it's not even funny. Boost and BR are by far the most useful, versatile actions in the game, and with all new releases, ships need to have a reason to NOT have them, not a reason TO have them. The X-Wing has no reason to not have Boost/BR, especially considering that it offers nothing to offset the disadvantage it has by not being about to Boost/BR.

It's almost like you're intentionally downplaying the usefulness of boost/BR just to try and prove your point. We all know just how much better the T-70 is over the X-Wing, and yeah, the extra shield helps, yeah, tallon rolls are neat, and yes, the green 3 straight is very nice, but it all comes down to the fact that the T-70 can boost, the X-Wing cannot. It changes the ENTIRE WAY the X-Wing plays, which is why back when X-Wings were still used, Engine Upgrade was so popular on the Aces.

Targeting Astro sucks more than the X-Wing does, and relies on a maneuver X-Wings hate doing(you know, because it means they're naked defensively, which is all it takes to cripple an X-Wing?). Yeah, i'll pass.

You said it yourself, why take an X-Wing with BB-8 when you can take a T-70 with BB-8 and get way more mobility out of it?

A fix isn't a fix unless it fixes all of them. Every time i find myself asking to take R2-D6 on an X-Wing i just find the points for a Red Squad Vet, which is better in every measurable way.

Not only all of that, but the T-70 natively having boost means you can take Autothrusters, which is an ENORMOUS buff to it's defense. X-Wing can't do that, either.